> If we dont find some way of rehabilitating these youngsters we just go on to produce another similar generation and no one benefts

Exactly - as much as I like the idea of being tough etc etc etc that in itself will not stop the problem. We have somehow to address the number of one parent families, unemployment, general bad parenting etc etc etc Children learn from their parents who learnt from their parents. While I don't want to say that this is an excuse, it does explain what is going on in a large number of families. Not just in 'poor' areas either :(

not replying to anyone in particular

but this is on FB
hundreds of rioters are apparantly all meeting up in crystal palace park tonight, please warn all dog owners in the area to keep dogs in
from DDA watch

Mbro

Daisy I have just realised who you are talking about and cannot stand the woman.

She talks down to people and talks round things with plenty of waffle.

>Mass exclusions ? I will tell you where they go, to centres like the ones I work in and there arnt many of us! trouble is just excluding isnt a cure. yes I know there is an arguement and a strong one for the rights of the good students, but  we have to find ways of dealing with these disaffected students believe me they arnt easy to teach be it academic, practical or social skills  and all come with their story.

The rights of the students who want to learn must always take precedence over the rights of the ones who don't No question.

Whatever happened to Borstals and Approved Schools?

> She talks down to people and talks round things with plenty of waffle

:)

Oh yes you are right but we do need to find ways of educating these students and I dont just mean in the 3 r's
As for where did all the borstals etc ?  I guess they went the way of most special schools due to  that word  inclusion. ie Every child has the right to be educated in a main stream school and the school must try to meet their needs. Not possible if you want to do the best for all as you should.

We need more facilities and trained teachers in these areas to school these children according to their needs which can be very different not one size fits all and yes some of those facilities may need to be  very tough  but fair and secure instituions I know they exist but only in the minority
after all children are only at school for 25 hours aweek on average the rest of the time its down to the parents and society.

While I don't want to say that this is an excuse, it does explain what is going on in a large number of families. Not just in 'poor' areas either

The thing is though Daisy we know that society and family is not like when we were children (though I must admit I've done my darnest to keep it that way in working from home and keeping my family close) we know there are far too many single parents, far too many homes where both parents are out working (through necessity or being career minded) far too many latchkey kids and far too many who shouldn't have a hamster let alone a child. Far too much slapping on the hand, far too much lets re-habilitate, far too much of everything JG stated earlier, everything is wrong today, we can find an excuse for everyone who does a crime if we look hard enough let's be honest.

Far too many excuses for behaviour......... this is the world we live in and we have to stop making excuses for bad behaviour, we have to stop bypassing jail and pandering to our young who have taken the wrong path. They need to go to jail and not one with tv's and games all they should get in jail is a lack of freedom and there they can have rehabilitation, trades taught etc, but without the cushy stuff, you break the law you are punished first and foremost, the world is a better place with them off the streets.

We are just not going to change the world we live in today it is done and dusted, unless we take a backwards step and stop women or in some cases men from working and get them back at home standing over their children, no hope in that and I guess I will not be popular in stating such a thing.

There is no point in sitting there unwinding everything that makes someone under 25ish bad and excusing the behaviour and feeling sorry for them, because there will be others with the same family unit, same lifestyle who make good and your right there are just as many rich kids with chips on their shoulder as the really poor.

Every animal group needs a leader/alpha it is how societies and social groups of all animals work, otherwise they run feral, we are no different the law is there to stop us running feral it gives boundaries with or without a good role model it is there to be upheld, but the do-gooders for years have changed this, and continue to stand up for the criminal 'victim.'  This is what is wrong, the young who break the law/rules need to be punished. Without that this is what we get.

My soap box is getting higher and higher. :-D

I'm a teacher and my daughter is a police officer. I can identify children at the age of 7 who will eventually be picked up by her. You can usually tell by the attitude of the parents. They either don't want to know about the bad behaviour of their children or they accuse the teacher of 'picking on them'. I was told to 'f' off by a 10 year old once for takibg away a ball he wasn't allowed to have. He was shouting at me saying I was an f... ing bitch and I couldn't do that. He said he was going to complain to the f...ing headteacher. The headteacher gave him the ball back - he was worried about repercussions from the parents. These children take up the majority of teacher time in the classroom. I am waiting in vain for the silent majority of parents to complain that the bahaviour of these children is impacting on their own childrens' learning.
Sorry - rant over - gone off thread a tad.  Glad I'll be retiring soon - sorry, another 4 years, 3 months and 25 days to go - I forgot :)

> Can only say that Camila Batmanghelidjh often does the newspaper review on BBC Breakfast on a Saturday morning and seems to talk a lot of sense particularly as she has worked with deprived children for many, many years.

That may be so.   I just felt she was not holding her own in the discussion but then I guess she is really up against it today..........if it was her :)

We are just not going to change the world we live in today it is done and dusted, unless we take a backwards step and stop women or in some cases men from working and get them back at home standing over their children, no hope in that and I guess I will not be popular in stating such a thing.

I'm in total agreement, i get annoyed when people look down their nose because i have been a stay at home mom but i can say hand on heart my kids are generally kind thoughtfull peeple even my daughter who has ASD has more empathy than these thugs.

> We need more facilities and trained teachers in these areas to school these children according to their needs

Never mind teachers, who brought them up to believe they needed £150 trainers to be complete?  Who was responsible for their whereabout the last three nights?

> She talks down to people and talks round things with plenty of waffle.

Yes, it was the waffle :)  and the believe that being deprived gives you allowances.

Yep who did thats why my comment about school being only 25hours aweek the rest being down to parental values and teaching.  How do we make ill equipped parents do that parenting orders seem unworkable as far as I can see  and when the government thinks it needs to issue a five point plan to tell people how to parent including talking to you kids we are in trouble
After all conceiving a child for most people is the easy bit its bringing it up to become a well mannered contributer to society that is a bit more tricky :)

> Far too many excuses for behaviour

I'm not making excuses - just explanations :)

> the believe that being deprived gives you allowances

I am not saying that  - BUT, if Baby P had survived and was expelled from school at eight would you still say that he didn't deserve any allowance for his homelife ??

What I can't decide is at what age do people become responsible for their actions ?? Is a four year old responsible for being overweight ?

> but at the moment the dog caught up with him he was just walking

After having been asked (then commanded!) by not one but 3 Officers to stop, I wonder what part of that event (shown without sound!) made you decide the police dog was out of control? Because when I am at our Public order training facility our dogs of course learn the correct procedures and of course know what's coming next when a person walks or runs away after the very clear command to stop (or stand back)
    In fairness, we employees of the Met (be we human, canine / Equine) are not machines there is the 'human' element and there is fallibility... not least when our teams have already put in a 20hr shift by that time, I don't write here to excuse my point of view or training fallibility  nor to slam down your point of view but merely and hopefully to give a bit more perspective which might afford my friends and my colleagues a little slack in challenging times.
    Five police dogs sustained injuries, including Linpol Luke which has a serious head injury after being hit by a brick.

>and the believe that being deprived gives you allowances.

During the war there were more single-parent families (because the fathers were away fighting) than now, but Society didn't fall apart - the children whose fathers were away didn't run wild. Being in a single-parent family is no excuse for bad behaviour.

Five police dogs sustained injuries, including Linpol Luke which has a serious head injury after being hit by a brick.

That breaks my heart, I hope that all the dogs will recover. xxx

I am not saying that  - BUT, if Baby P had survived and was expelled from school at eight would you still say that he didn't deserve any allowance for his homelife ??

Speaking personally, no allowances from me whatsoever, when bad things happen to people therapy must be available, help to cope must be made available, terrible things happen to many people causing all sorts of emotional problems, but crime and breaking rules is not an option IMO.

In Saudi Arabia if you steal you get your hands cut off!!! A person abused and mistreated as a child may have issues there, but boy they aint gonna steal. :-)

People can have issues, but it is no excuse to break laws and rules, we have therapist galore to try to help people and groups for every eventuality you can think of this is where help comes from, lashing out and breaking the law needs to be a no no, not excusable for any reason. :-)

>  not excusable for any reason

Not even if you are eight ??? You're a hard woman :)

Would you say "Oh bless him, he's only eight" as he sets fire to your car? No, for some things youth is no excuse.

> BUT, if Baby P had survived and was expelled from school at eight would you still say that he didn't deserve any allowance for his homelife ??

No I wouldn't because he suffered much more than economic deprivation but I do not believe many of those out on the streets are deprived.  Quite the opposite infact. It is my personal believe these particular yobs have probably had too much!  I believe their parents have probably borrowed, if not robbed, to get them designer gear and computer games or if not they have allowed them to "gang" with those that do regard these things as vital.
Of course there are children in inner cities that you could describe as deprived but it is not a reasonable response to want to take from others. 
I doubt the £150 trainer brigade could believe how little we had happily growing up with in the 50s and 60s.  Even my father, growing up truly deprived in the 30s, in Croyden as it happens, responded by working all the harder to better himself.

Stooge,

I haven't heard the R4 discussion, will try to. CBG does not have the most likeable image or manner and I do see how she might come across as patronising and full of waffle. Nonetheless, what she has chosen to do in working with these kids is pretty incredible, not many would do her work, and I think she does have valuable insights. If she is telling the truth, and I beleive she is, she has also made headway with many of the kids she has worked with. I'd be surprised if she actually said that being deprived gives you allowances.

What I have heard her say and what she writes, is that some of these kids have grown up without a moral compass, they have not been socialised, they do not feel part of mainstream society and do not function within it. In short bits of their brains are not developed. So, do we simply write them off by keep locking them up or similar, with lots of policing ( all at great expense to ourselves) or try to catch them young and socialise them and instill some kind of moral values- perhaps as costly but with a better outcome? I should add, did you read about the child that was at nursery school that did not know its own name?

> , I hope that all the dogs will recover. xxx

'Obi' (Linpol Luke) is still in treatment (life changing injury)
Marshfield Mia was injured after being hit by a thrown bottle. Both dogs were injured on duty on Sunday. On Monday, Minstrel Blaze, Quirk Ruby and Zach all sustained injuries, including broken teeth and cuts from thrown missiles.
( No significant injuries to Mounted Branch )

Again, are we not confusing consumer ownership with the benefit of a properly guided and parented childhood? These kids may have mobile phones and trainers coming out of their ears, but many have been emotionally deprived because of the environment they grow up in. Most of us did not have a smidgen of what kids have today in terms of possessions and clothes but we had a childhood and a degree of innocence. I really believe many of these do not.

> Would you say "Oh bless him, he's only eight" as he sets fire to your car?

You misunderstand what I was saying :)

HG,

Hope all the dogs will be okay. Awful to hear of the injuries both they and police have sustained. I think the stoicism and control they show in the face of such provocation is amazing- that goes for the horses too.

>You misunderstand what I was saying 

I think I must be.

Carrington,

But we live in a democracy, surely you don't want us to turn into Saudi? Actually, I don't think there are therapists galore not for these hardcore kids, that's why it has taken a charity like Kid's Company to try to step in and do something. Don't get me wrong, I am not excusing the behaviour, I abhor it and part of me would like to see what effect a few rubber bullets up the back end would have- it might sort the less hardened hangers on out for good. However, we always bang on how in operant terms punishment only suppresses behaviour, so that given the opportunity or right conditions it resurfaces. Obviously humans are a good deal more complex but I am struggling to think of a democracy where heavier penalties actually result in less crime.

Just tagging on the end here but I think a lot of the problems today stem from the fact that too many people are bought up believing the state has a duty to keep them and as they don't have to work to keep a roof over their heads they have no sense of value. They have too much time on their hands to spend drinking and drug taking and all they hear is how hard done to they all are. If they want expensive things then they should get jobs and work for them. The long term unemployed should as a matter of course be made to work for local authorities,charities etc to make them realise that nothing in life should be free. I am buying my own house,I own my own car,I work 6 days a week  and I save for things I want or need. I work on some of the rough estates and see these people every day,they don't want to work,they seem quite content being downright bone idle.

Not even if you are eight ??? You're a hard woman

I know :-) No excuse, I just strongly believe in right and wrong, :-) I think in life you have to be hard sometimes, to make life good for all.

Yes HG I hope the animals and their injured human counter parts recover quickly. You are doing what many of us couldnt and somehow still get critizied
No there is not enough help available for these hard core kids and some will never change whatever we do.  Help doesnt mean they should not be punished for their wrong behaviour. You may try to understand where they are coming from but that doesnt mean you approve or believe they have excuses for their behaviour nor that they should be let of the hook.
Even children that have come from the most horrendous backgrounds need boundaries and guidance and yes that may include appropriate punishments if they do not stay with societies rules.

roscoebabe,

spot on and if you are born into this kind of family/environment where/how do you learn to do otherwise. There are always exceptional people who manage to escape the lives they are born into but many don't.

>I abhor it and part of me would like to see what effect a few rubber bullets up the back end would have

The best way (tried, tested and proven) to stop a riot is for marksmen to take out ringleaders. The followers start to see the benefits of finding somewhere else to be.

> No excuse, I just strongly believe in right and wrong

And I don't ?? :)

>  think in life you have to be hard sometimes, to make life good for all

Of course - I'm not talking about letting people off with no punishment. Just trying to understand why people are act so differently.

I think that I am VERY fortunate to have been brought up to know right and wrong. I don't think that I can claim much of the credit for being an honest and responsible citizen (LOL) :) A lot of it is down to my parents and upbringing which I had no control over. Of course, once I reached adulthood I chose to continue living ths way, but it was an easy path to follow because I was already on that path.

Yes,

I do think there is massive public support for a strong police response to anything that happens from now on- I agree it should be very hard and immediate. However, it is what is done next that bothers me, because I don't think that punishment alone will work, there has to be some kind of long-term rehabilitation plan too. Should we bring back National Service? In a bizarre way this might give the really feckless kids the structure they need.

Edited to say, sorry Daisy, that was not a yes to you, but to JG.

> Again, are we not confusing consumer ownership with the benefit of a properly guided and parented childhood?

Well, I'm not :)  Nor are you by the sounds of things :)  The two rarely go hand in hand it seems.

Dobergirls, I wish there was a like button - from a fellow teacher. I definitely see those "problems" kids when they come the my school (secondary) and I fully agree with you, they are the ones the parents will excuse for everything! Problem is by the time they see the light (or understand what we're telling them) the students are 14-15 and then it's much harder to deal with!!
Just look at what happened to some of those kids who are now roaming the street intent on terrorising and looting! The country makes a big deal of international terrorism (and so they should!) so why do they think this kind of terrorism is OK to be delt with by just the police?

hmmm, still have many years of teaching and things do NOT seem to get better unfortunately in the next generation for those kids whose parents have little impact in their children's lives :-(

Stooge, guess I asked for that :) I do like a dry sense of humour.

> However, it is what is done next that bothers me, because I don't think that punishment alone will work, there has to be some kind of long-term rehabilitation plan too. >

That has to be the way forward.

> there has to be some kind of long-term rehabilitation plan too

There is an interesting article on the BBC news website, 'What Turns People Into Looters'.
"Psychologists argue that a person loses their moral identity in a large group, and empathy and guilt - the qualities that stop us behaving like criminals - are corroded" . (however, it still goes onto stay, we still have a CHOICE in how we behave)

Allthough there may be underlying issues for the people that have been involved in the riots, the article does give food for thought, and if the psychologists arguements are correct, nipping the riots in the bud with the police giong in hard to stop it the instant it starts (or providing such a police presence, in order for the gangs to not feel like they have the upper hand to kick off inthe first place), then long-term rehabilitationis is not needed - just things in place to stop crowds turning itno riots.

If these large gangs knew they would be shot with plastic bullets (for example), there is much less chance of them feeling like they are untouchable in the first place.

I don't think CBG is a mealy-mouthed do-gooder

Camila Batmangelidgh is anything but a mealy mouthed do gooder--she works with some of the most damaged kids there are and makes no apology for it. How many of us would believe in them enough to try to do the same? She, her colleagues and the young people whose lives have been turned around by their help deserve recognition, not contempt and ridicule.

If these large gangs knew they would be shot with plastic bullets (for example), there is much less chance of them feeling like they are untouchable in the first place.

Are you so sure? Drugs, desperation, bravado, peer pressure and sheer failure to understand consequence and responsibility suggest that's just not the case. 

JAY15,

Indeed. You'll find few politicians who do not give her their full support- well in terms of rhetoric anyway. That's because she's trying to deal with the mess they would rather not have to. That is why I said, she really does know what she is talking about.

But we live in a democracy, surely you don't want us to turn into Saudi?

Good grief no. :-)

It's a long road and a lot of money to re-dress what makes someone act in a criminal way. Short term, not just as a punishment but the right thing IMO to do is get trouble makers and law breakers off the streets, why should law abiding citizens have to put up with rogue individuals threatening and carrying out crime, because some people want to keep giving them a chance and saying there, there.

The law is there to protect the rest of us from harm, do what needs to be done whilst they are locked up, the therapists the help can all come from there continuing with long term re-habilitation in the meantime the rest of us feel safe from them.

For me it's just that simple. Locking people up may or may not stop them being criminals, but at least they are not bothering me or my neighbours.

> If these large gangs knew they would be shot with plastic bullets (for example), there is much less chance of them feeling like they are untouchable in the first place.

Historically we have seen that that was not predominantly the case, for Example the Paris Riots a few years back.
   In fact the 'mob' (for want of a better word) feel their actions become more justified and credible against 'Police Brutality' it can swing both ways from detterent to inflammatory with sometime no way of predicting or understanding - The Met and its (very experienced) advisors hold back for very valid and sound reasons.

Something to chear us up again.  What inspired them I wonder?

I agree freelanceruk, if only the politicians backed up the lip service with real support. It's not that long ago that she led a very high profile campaign to raise awareness of the damage that massive funding cuts were doing to their work. Plenty on the voluntary sector were scared to lift their heads above the parapet in case they lost out on what they had, but she had the courage of her convictions.

>Should we bring back National Service? In a bizarre way this might give the really feckless kids the structure they need.

I've thought that for years. It wouldn't have to be military, but 2 years of living away from home (away from their local culture) and being disciplined would be the saving grace for so many of these people.

Just adding on the end here.

Can we please remember when we are watching this on TV that there are thousands of children and young people out there who are good citizens and who would never dream of damaging someone elses property far less burn or loot. It's easy to forget that these are a few thugs, idiots and troublemakers not representative of all the youngsters in this country. I know because I have 2 children and an awful lot of students in this age group (from 'good' and 'bad' backgrounds) who might be cheeky and annoying sometimes but are good kids at heart and are just as shocked and horrified at what is going on as we are!