This is 'recreational looting' and stealing to order under the literal smoke screen of burning buildings.

And no doubt will not be caught and will sit in their homes collecting their social, drinking their alcohol and taking their drugs with no worries, whilst the hardworking people whose shops are looted and towns with millions of pounds worth of damage will have all the decent working people pay increased council taxes to cover the losses.

It angers me so much, this country is just getting over a recession (well kind of) millions of pounds worth of debt is in every country and yobs like this just make it worse and worse for our country to get back on it's feet.

The ones that are caught should have their benefits stopped or if working be made to pay, I'd love to give that benefit money to the emergency services, they are so underpaid, we need more police, more jails, if we weren't propping up all the losers in this country we would have the funds for that.

Human rights has a lot to answer for I agree with you Merlot, this softly softly world just doesn't work.

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we so need a like button on here, agree with everything you say carrington

I'm just so thankful we moved out of Enfield 18 months ago into sleepy Suffolk, it's lovely here! So worried about my friends and family, many of whom live near and around Enfield / Tottenham / Croydon etc.

Just got news that my nephew received a broken arm during clashes with the rioters.  Thankfully nothing more serious than that, and is now out of hospital. 

Still watching this all as much as I can with limited news coverage in Oz.

Tooolz, I understand your sentiments and I have made the mistake of admonishing youngsters for a variety of behaviours in my area, only to be met with hysterical laughter and the retort "we don't have parents". Fact is, a fair few kids out looting etc.. come from seriously dysfunctional homes where there is literally no parenting, others are in care and there is no control over them.

The rioting reached the end of my street last night. Local shops smashed. A group of around 50 youths just rolled down the street and smashed as they went- it was a buzz.

I'm very much afraid that this is born of an 'I'm alright Jack attitude' where your status is measured by what you own not what values you hold. I have no sympathy at all with these kids who have seen they can get stuff for free and are high on feelings of power and intimidation. However, it does strike me that the same 'I'm in it for what I can get for me and bugger anyone else' prevails in other areas of society, not least those investment bankers who went on a get rich quick jaunt with little regard for anything but lining their own pockets just as quickly as they could. Sadly there is a view out there, held at all levels, that conscience and compassion is for losers. I do think consumerism and our narcissistic culture has a lot to answer for. That said, they never riot in the winter, when it's cold!

> That said, they never riot in the winter, when it's cold

What we need is a few days of torrential rain :(

One problem is that there is no real punishment :( Even if they arrest someone, the chances are that they will be let out on bail and are then free to go and so the same again. If they get as far as court, they will get a fine etc. I'm not normally a fan of corporal punishment but can't help feelng that what is needed is a curfew and anyone caught out on the streets (in an area of disorder) will suffer the full force of water cannon, teargas, beanbag thingies etc etc etc - that will have far more of an impact than being arrested (or would it ?? :( )

In actual fact on this mornings BBC report the chief of police stated that, although the first two nights of affray  were predominantly 14-17 year olds, last nights lootings were orchestrated by 'mature men'...probably their dads! Its a free for all and the out and out criminals are making hay while this particular sun shines :-(

Sadly a lot of truth in what you say freelancer.I have regular first hand experience of children from dysfunctional homes and also those from homes where parents are doing their best but the children are out of control. Just look at the numbers that are excluded from school because they have no respect for themsleves let alone others and those in authority.
They are now out out control on our streets together with older people who also have no respect for anything except their need for material things however obtained
Our cites and major towns are very sad places to live
atm
Its true when was there last a riot in winter ?

>I'm not normally a fan of corporal punishment but can't help feelng that what is needed is a curfew and anyone caught out on the streets (in an area of disorder) will suffer the full force of water cannon, teargas, beanbag thingies etc etc etc - that will have far more of an impact than being arrested (or would it ?? 

What works best with animals - punishment at the time of the event or later? In situations like this the punishment needs to be instantaneous; anything after the event, when the culprit has already had the reward of committing the offence, is worse than useless.

My husband's off today from work but our daughter has sent a few pictures from Croydon and it's just soul destroying. Those poor people who owned Reeves, a family business handed down through generations- GONE :(
The pictures in todays papers show people posing with their booty! no fear of being caught. I would like to know what they think they have achieved.
We will all pay whether or not we have claimed on insurance etc.

A very sad day, lets all pray for rain for  few days.

>We will all pay whether or not we have claimed on insurance etc.

Everyone's insurance premiums will rise to cover the cost of this. :-(

>  I do think consumerism and our narcissistic culture has a lot to answer for

Definitely :( How many parents buy things for their children (or themselves) because 'everyone else' has one ? People with wardrobes full of clothes that they can't possibly need because it is the fashion - just plain greed. So many children have 'things' rather than two parents who spend quality time with them and teach them how to grow up to be responsible adults. It amazes me how easily people create chldren and then abdicate all responsibility for helping them have meaningful, happy lives :(

Sorry - all this is full square at the feet of parents. There are many parents who do not have a lot of money but manage to bring their children up properly - why can't others do it ??

Rant over :)

The Metropolital Police have just gone through a very expensive and damaging enquiry into the death of a man during a previous riot.

They have an 'acting' commisioner because of all the phone hacking scandal and now they have to police the streets, keep order and all without hurting a hair on the little ner-do-wells heads.......they have their hands tied behind their backs and unless the emergency committee declare a 'no holds barred' strategy, i cant see what they can do...without being sued.

> without being sued

Yes :( I'm afraid that I was shouting at Theresa May this morning - she was more or less suggesting that 'we' don't do things like using water cannon, tear gas etc in this country :( Pathetic :( I just hope that someone else has more sense in the COBRA meeting today !

People are calling for the army to be brought in ... and do what? Although I'm sure they'd love to be brought back from Afghanistan they wouldn't be allowed to do anything that the police aren't allowed to do.

A suggestion was made by a friend of mine that they use the water cannons with red dye in the water.
But I imagine the scarlet youths would see it as a badge of honour not shame :(

the thing is if the army where to be bought in would it be shoot to kill ?
they are trained for it , if not why bring them in at all to be restrained with what the police
are being restrained by, laws that are not for victims but are for the people that do the crime.
People have been arrested over 400 so far maybe 10 will be prosecuted and then the cps will
chuck the rest out funny how ordinary people like us want things done the hard way but
the do gooders always win out they always cry what about their humane rights, well they don't
have any as far as i am concerned break the law suffer punishment and it is about time we as a country
started getting tougher.
Saw on the news in liverpool a young lad has started a facebook page for people to come and help him tidy his
area up after the riot he said that he was ashamed of what people had done and he likes to live in a tidy area so
anyone that wants to help him sweep up etc welcome, he needs praise and not dragged down with the others

Re: the Police dogs - I did not see the clip but they are there as a deterrent and if the mindless hoodies (who could also be on drugs and have no fear) get too close I hope they get bitten damn hard and are scarred for life. if these feral types were tucked up in bed not causing damage to other peoples lives and properties who have worked hard and lead honest lives they would not be in a position to be hurt by Police dogs or otherwise.

as long as the police,police dogs,police horses do not get hurt not bothered if the thugs get bit,hit,stomped on if they where not doing anything they should not of been there in the first place

I think once you bring the Army in there would have to be some kind of declaration that changes the situation from violent protest to riot/major civil unrest. If I have understood this correctly, this would mean that responsibility for damage to property shifts from the insurer to the crown and therefore the govt. This may go some way to explaining the feet of clay response

we had sites evacuated last night and are getting calls for shops to be boarded up today as they fear their town is next :(

Here is a link by someone who really knows what they are talking about.  http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html

We have a bunch of Enfield Scouts staying up our campsite, they are very distressed after the first night, now after night two in Enfield thay are really upset their parents are there and tomorrow they go home.

I found myself shouting at the tv last night, how dare those yobs destroy property and hurt people. We are working at Tottenham Bus Station a driver got into trouble on Sunday night when a colleague went to help they broke both his hands. Our guys say its within 100 yards of the depot. If anything happens they have been told to just come back asap - b+gg++ the job.

Now in Birmingham ect what is going on and some prat on facebook with his haul????? Now where is my passport Im offski!! with my dogs.

is it chealsygirl that lived in a rough part of London.  has anyone heard from her?
lea

I thought about her as well. Not been posting for a while hope she is OK.

Just been watching the news and I am horrified by the young girl who seemed to think that what was happening was because her generation was not getting any "respect" she said "once 'you' (not sure who that is aimed at) respect us then we will respect you" How that statement justifies robbery looting violence and burning property I have no idea. I have been brought up to treat others as I would wish to be treated...

My eldest Daughter, hubby and three grandchildren have saved all year for a short holiday they both work very hard, not on benifits, good kids with an understanding of wrong and right. They planned to have a week in Windsor, go to Legoland (They have gone today) then spend some days going into London to the museums etc..Now they are woried about going to London..thier holiday if not ruined has been affected maybe cut short if this does not stop, how is that showing her and her family 'respect' Oh and incidentally they come from an area that is run down and poverty ridden. They have clawed above it.

How dare these thugs and thieves blame thier appauling behaviour on hard working families like hers. Untill they can have some 'respect' for the society they live in then they must expect that society to have no 'respect' for them
Fuming.....
Aileen

I wonder if Theresa May the Home Secretary would be so reluctant to break out the water cannons and slap on a curfew if it was her home and family that was at risk ?.
Some little scrote even had the cheek to say that when the police started respecting them they would respect the police !, yeah sure, makes me wish there was still such a thing as a penal colony.

Yes chelseagirl lives in peckham hope she is ok  but we dont hear from her much atm. Just listening to the radio and stuff is kicking off again down in the croydon and surrounding area.
It looks terrible this morning  much i think like the aftermath of parts of the blitz Just hope that some how we can re possess our town from these feral miscreants
Respect ... two way street most of thes people dont know what the word means and if they think they do it is to respect them and noone else.
 

I was in London at the Royal Albert Hall Saturday night and didnt see a thing, I did not hear about the rtouble until the scouts told us on Sunday. I think your family would be ok around Knightsbridge, Science Museum is great and its free.

Some smart ass put this on another forum...quite funny I think - but so true.

"I'm Keeping myself safe from the riots
I'm hiding in the job centre."

> Here is a link by someone who really knows what they are talking about.  [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html" rel=nofollow]http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html[/url]

I wonder if that is the Camila I have just heard speaking on Radio 4's World at One? 
I didn't catch all of the discussion but she certainly did not sound like someone who knew what she was talking about at all and had a stock reponse that whatever anyone else said "it proved her point" when it patently didn't!
They are going from 6000 to 16000 police out tonight I suspect heavier tactics are on the way too.  This will be costing the country dearly and who will suffer most?  The very communities that it is claimed have a grievance not that I subscribe to any notion that this is what it is about.  I would like to see some people swiftly in court and heavily punished to get the message across that there are consequences to be found.
I never had much faith in the Olympics being good for London let alone the country as a whole but doubt this will help turn it into a profitable experience for the country either.

> "I'm Keeping myself safe from the riots
> I'm hiding in the job centre."

A little humour has got to be a help :)

> Now where is my passport Im offski!! with my dogs.

Where????  Which part of the world do you think is immune to trouble just now?

She works with these kids day in day out, I think she probably has more insight into how they work than you or I. Many of these kids have little value for their own lives let alone anyone elses- they are amoral/feral. Tough policing may help short term but it will not deal with the underlying causes. I don't think CBG is a mealy-mouthed do-gooder, I think she makes a subtle but valid set of observations. Anyhow, I'm hoping to see the police out in force very shortly as it feels very edgy at the moment.

"Many of these kids have little value for their own lives let alone anyone elses- they are amoral/feral"
true but we do need to deal with the present... tough policing but need give serious consideration to the future to deal with the underlying problems that have created todays society.
Only even though I work with these types of kids dont ask me how :(

We have had prior notice thro my work that the police are shutting Bluewater, Gravesend and Dartford this afternoon.

Lisa

How far is this going ? dont remember it having spread this far in the 80's is that just my memory

> I don't think CBG is a mealy-mouthed do-gooder, I think she makes a subtle but valid set of observations.

I shall try to find a link to the discussion :)

Oh dear just watching Boris walking round Clapham with a broom in his hand !

My son just left work to get home to Hackney and everything is boarded up down that way.  The boarding up companies must be making a fortune today (better late than never I guess).  He says he heard that Crawley and surroundings might be affected tonight and a friend says there is trouble in Bexleyheath.

Bring in the water cannons and whatever else it takes.  We can't let these mindless morons win.  Theresa May is on a different planet - did you hear her this morning.  Get real lady, you can't just slap wrists and hope it will all be ok.  It's too late for being nice.

> It's too late for being nice.

It's the decades of being too nice and child-centred that caused all this. Teachers not being allowed to discipline children and trying to be their friends instead of concentrating on teaching (being liked is a bonus but not essential - children don't want the teacher to be their friend - that's creepy) and imparting information. Children have been encouraged to think their wishes take precedence and so can't cope with reality.

We have had prior notice thro my work that the police are shutting Bluewater, Gravesend and Dartford this afternoon.

Well, I don't want to read one thing in the newspapers that the police have been heavy handed, I don't want to read about the police being sued or about any 'victims' hurt by police in these areas, those doing these crimes those even following and cheering them on are all guilty and something serious needs to happen now, this is war now as far as I am concerned and should be treated as such the British livelihood and way of life is being threatened.

Forget water, get the guns out! Guess I'll have to make that 'dart' guns, if they are going to act like wild animals on the loose, that should be what happens to them, shoot them, then scoop them up and get them taken to a holding cell, if makeshift jails need putting up do it, but not one of these people should be able to run off.

My husband heard a radio report where someone said, well they can't afford £150 trainers so this is part of the reasoning behind the looting, many people working 3 jobs can't afford £150 trainers they don't resort to looting and destroying towns, disgusting answer and anyone who thinks it is even mildly acceptable to understanding their behaviour is just as bad and part of what is wrong with this country.

The law is the law, no matter how hard done by some think they are, that needs to be made clear.

Jeangenie, I wish I had a LIKE button, so true.
My elderly neighbours tell me that Valley Park ( shopping area near Croydon) is meant to be next.

NZ thats about far enough somwhere up neat Takapuna about 4 bungalows on a dirt road - that should do it! Only joking Im British born and bred and dont want to go anywhere else.

I think the reasoning is that suppression through punishment and mass tough policing may, long-term, be more expensive than 'rehabilitation'. I don't know if that it true or not, but I am prepared to listen. I agree though that teachers must be given greater powers and support, though again if mass exclusions are the ultimate measure of control where do those kids go all day. Have we the resources and the will to put thousands of semi feral children into prison? What happens to them when they are released? Will they be worse than when they went in?

Perhaps these kids just need a good fright from the police, a good 'thrashing' as it were. I hope it is really that simple but I can not help thinking it is not.

Remember that word "accountability" now where did the UK put that for safekeeping ???
Aileen

West Brom is now being hit, just been updated on the news.. When is this going to end and how many more cities are going to be destroyed?

News about people that have so far appeared in court. Amongst them were a Graphic Designer, student, Graduate, Youth Worker.......doesn't really sound like feral Kids does it ? One lawyer apparently said his client ( I wonder who has paid for his Lawyer :-( ) was from previous good character and did the crime in a moment of madness. Alot of them gave addresses outside of the area they were arrested in.

I wonder if the Youth Worker will remain in his job.

Mass exclusions ? I will tell you where they go, to centres like the ones I work in and there arnt many of us! trouble is just excluding isnt a cure. yes I know there is an arguement and a strong one for the rights of the good students, but  we have to find ways of dealing with these disaffected students believe me they arnt easy to teach be it academic, practical or social skills  and all come with their story.
If we dont find some way of rehabilitating these youngsters we just go on to produce another similar generation and no one benefts
Many things are put in place, we try whatever we can sometimes with success but once excluded they become the bottom of the pile
There is little money available to do anything for them be it medical, therapies, or education if they will accept it.
Eventually time passes they leave school and if we havnt fixed it go on to get into trouble and cause more anguish to good law abiding citizens
very good merlot , alongside responsibility I think and yes jean genie exactly right. Come on mods please let us have a like button :)

Can only say that Camila Batmanghelidjh often does the newspaper review on BBC Breakfast on a Saturday morning and seems to talk a lot of sense particularly as she has worked with deprived children for many, many years. I've always had time for her comment - not saying that I have always agreed with her :)