Hello, yes i am mad :-)

I have a 3 year old Miniature Schnauzer and a 9 month old French Bull dog. My Frenchy is slightly grumpy. She guards her food and her bed and any toys, everything is hers.

Please don't shout! Yes i have gone out and bought 2 pugs, 8 weeks old, gorgeous bundles of fun and mischief. My Frenchy under the circumstances is behaving quite well. But i want to ensure 'I' dont do anything wrong. I am trying to give them as much time together and trying not to intervene when my Frenchy girl grumps at them.

So now to my issue, my girl is now trying to guard me, like i am hers too, so when pugs comet to me, she is warding them off. I realise she must set down rules to the pugs e.g my toys, my ears, my toes etc but i dont want her feeling that she must guard me/possessive of me. So how do i go about making her feel secure and allowing me to call pugs and Frenchy too me?

They have separate sleeping areas, Frenchy and Mini Schnauzer sleep in crate together in hall (only at night or when i go out) Pugs sleep in kitchen in a crate (same as others) but we all share the lounge throughout the day. She becomes more guarding when my children come in to play too. I realise its possibly jealousy, but we are ensuring they all get played with and loved equally. I just dont want to be in a position were i make a mistake and do the wrong thing and make my Frenchy worse.

Any help greatly appreciated. If you shout at me be warned... I may cry x

Hi i have just read the post http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/131036.html i can follow this advise, thanks

Oh my goodness, I don't know how to say this other than straight to the point, I'm not going to shout as you think or probably know we should, it's not the fact that you must be mad, but you are going to be so unfair to the 3 younger dogs you have, all still PUPPIES, you need to give full one on one to the Frenchy, bringing in two new pups knowing one is showing signs of guarding behaviour............. oh dear, this is going to end in disaster, how can you possibly hope to give 3 puppies full attention and teach them control and obedience, inner fighting is almost a certain factor a great disservice to these pups.

If I were you, I would forget forums you need a recommended behaviourist installed as of now if you are to keep all 3 pups, that is where you should and will need to put your money :-) if you are to try to keep all three. Whether a behaviourist will be able to help long term is another thing as it will greatly depend on the characters of these 3 pups once at adolescence or full maturity.

They will either sort out a pecking order or you will have hell on earth. Very, very bad idea to have 3 immature dogs growing up together jousting for attention and finding their way in the pack which you now have.

All I will say is behaviourist now!!!  I wish you luck.

I don't know about mad but certainly misguided and a bit foolish perhaps...

The majority of regular posters on this forum would advise against getting litter mates and also advise against getting a new pup with a 9 month old.  I'm not sure you are going to get much sensible advice as so few people would attempt it.  Asking us not to shout, and your user name, suggests you already know exactly why not.
 
Honest advice?  You've already made a mistake so prepare to give at least one pug back to the breeder or clear your schedule completely to devote a lot of time to the problem.  Invest in baby gates to allow safe places and get all 3 young ones off to separate training classes as soon as the pups are old enough.

You've pushed all the buttons to get a telling off by right thinking and contentious breeders, none of whom would have let you have 2 puppies.  In all seriousness do check you have your pugs insured as they might not have come from the best source - were they from health tested parents?  You may get the odd poster who will tell you that you can manage the situation but at best you will be firefighting if you are genuinely asking for advice and not just attempting to pursue a wind up then please think long and hard about how you intend to provide the right environment for these dogs to get equal time, attention, and training.  I wish you a lot of luck as it won't be easy :)

I am mad therefore i will persevere. My Frenchy has already attended puppy classes and continues to do (she is having her first season at the moment so she is on leave from classes). I will arrange to take the pugs on separate nights to classes as well, for socialisation purposes.

I will keep an eye on all and never leave unattended. My Frenchy is grumpy, but not vicious :0( I have no doubt she will remain top girl, she is calm but firm with them. The pugs well they are naughty at the moment, so i need advise there no doubt about it. You can shout if you want, i agree with you, however i am prepared to put in the time to get it right.

Oh pups are insured. will breeder take one back???? I couldn't take one back...

I have a rash at the minute of clients buying either litter mates or puppies with puppies. WHY?????!!!!!

It's like having triplets in the house, would you really do that given a choice? You must ask yourself why you feel the need to have more and more dogs. Are you buying your pets pets? Or are you fiiling a need in yourself? In which case you need to address the issue ourself not by getting more dogs!

The breeder should never have sold you litter mates so not a reputable breeder. You need to get a decent trainer/behaviourist in asap before someone gets hurt. Appealingto people to not tell you off tellsme youkew what you were doing from the outset but thought you'd manage it. As a dog trainer I'm there to train dogs and give help, but if that help involves ticking off an owner I will do, politely but firmly. Ask any of my clients who start talking pack theory at me,a pet hate of mine. I will then educate but I get the feeling you gave into an urge from within, so what drives that? What is really making you unhappy, deal with it or you will never be a decent owner to any dog, as you will either be a pushover or unpredictable as your stress levels max out.

Get help for all concerned.

IMustbeMad, it just couldn't be a reputable breeder that you got two pups together from, so will you just give me a slight sigh of relief and tell me you have not also got two bitch pug pups, pleeeeease. :-)

I'd get a behaviourist in no doubt, should it be done before there is a problem? or if i notice a problem.

I was saying before, there is no problem yet and i want to ensure I dont do something wrong. I want to ensure i behave correctly around problems that may arise. Could the behaviourist help me with non-problems? My girl is just being grumpy i.e telling the puppies what they can and cant do around her, the rest of the time she is calm and happy to play with them. She is saying "grrrr dont jump on my face" "grrr I'm going to sleep" "grrr, thats my toy" its over in seconds, her temperament is second to non and i trust her implicitly around the puppies. The puppies are learning to follow her lead and not annoying her unnecessarily.

I was foolish buying two agreed, maybe even buying 4... I once did rescue for a number of years and at one time had a fair few number of dogs with different levels of problems, i dealt with all problems and helped find new homes and help readjust these unfortunate dogs (strangely without the need for a behaviourist and in those days treat based). Non, ever fought, ever injured each other and i dealt with issues as they came along. I know your thinking that why then have i put myself under this once more and the answer will be the same then as it is now... I just did. I need help because in rescue all different dogs come at all different sex's and ages.

So please, if you feel the need to get it off your chest and shout, fine i'm here arms open, take it away. But whilst you are doing it, just a little bit of advise on best method as well please... It would be appreciated.

Do i need to fulfil a need in my life??? Erm i have 4 children too.... so NO!  also have a beautiful OH and a fantastic family.

> I have a rash at the minute of clients buying either litter mates or puppies with puppies. WHY?????!!!!!

Anything to do with the kids summer holidays perhaps? - Something to keep the kids amused :-(

Carrington, the answer is "yes, both girls" However i have discussed with a number of Pug breeders and they have all advised Pug girls normally get on great without any problems together. I have spoken to more than one person with pug litter mates (girls) and they have all said they have never had a problem with there dogs.... If a pug breeder on here tells me different i will be happy to listen to their advise.

>

> Anything to do with the kids summer holidays perhaps? - Something to keep the kids amused :-(

You seriously have issues.... and i have reported your comment

>> You seriously have issues.... and i have reported your comment

Re-read my comment, it was NOT directed at you, it was in reply to a poster who has experienced a recent glut of people with 2 puppies at once - the sentence to which I was replying to was infact highlighted in my post so as not to cause confusion. On top of this, I replied directly to the poster I was responding to, not to you, so they would have had the notification.

> I was saying before, there is no problem yet

In your opening post you said "So now to my issue, my girl is now trying to guard me".
Guarding you is a problem behaviour - of which you have asked for advice. Guarding behaviour is something a behaviourist can help you with now -no need to wait untill her behaviour has worsened.

>> I have a rash at the minute of clients buying either litter mates or puppies with puppies. WHY?????!!!!!
> Anything to do with the kids summer holidays perhaps? - Something to keep the kids amused :-(

Apologies to mastifflover, i now realise the comment wasnt necessarily aimed at me. I am sorry! It was on my post so i automatically thought it was aimed at me :0(

> Apologies

No probs :)

Deflecting here, but I just have to say happyhoundgirl what a fabulous trainer you must be, not in just understanding dogs but you also show a remarkable insight into people who have dogs and what makes them tick also, I think your assumptions are most probably correct and you are very intuitive. :-)

My puppy trainer is a member of the Academy of dog training and behaviour and also the British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers. I will ask her advise when i return for my Frenchys lessons after her season. I just needed some interim help.

Blooming heck!!

I was advised not to ask for help on here as you just character assassinate people and offer no help for the dogs whatsoever. I didn't believe it and thought you could help in some way.

obviously they where right.

Having two pups is hard enough work, but you have 3.  Unfortunately you have placed your 9month old in a situation where she feels compromised.. she is a puppy, still very much a baby, and bringing two much younger females into the pack, you are forcing her to grow up before she knows how to :-(  

Puppies need individual attention from you and a lot of time seperated from each other.  controlled playtimes should last around 15/20mins at a time, throughout the day.. and you need to divide your attention to give them all quality time.. This quality time is not for sitting cuddling, but training.. teaching manners etc.. brain training will help tire them out

I wonder at the breeder who not only sells two pups to the same home, but who also knows there is another puppy already in situ which is at an age where juvenille deliquincy is about to kick in... :(

> I didn't believe it and thought you could help in some way.
>
>

What help are you looking for, you must have known the problems you would face before putting your pups into this situation... have the people who told you not to ask on here offered help? 

It would help us to know exactly what you are doing in terms of individual training for all three pups, and what type of combined training also...

Perhaps your breeders could help with advice and guidance!

I was advised not to ask for help on here as you just character assassinate people and offer no help for the dogs whatsoever. I didn't believe it and thought you could help in some way.


Reading through the thread you have had the following advice:
1. Use baby gates to be able to split the pups up.
2. See a trainer or behavourist ASAP for some help.
3. Go to separate training classes with each pup.
4. Return one of the young pups to the breeder to make life easier for both you and the pups.

There IS no quick fix magical solution and you have been given sensible advice.

You're right I have been given  all this advise. It's a shame my actual question of what should I do in the interim, what should my actions be, too ensure I don't make her actions worse, not been answered!

It's much easier got you to judge.
Personally I think you should change your name from CHAMPDOGS to CHAMPDIGS.. It's all you're good for.

Apart from the training classes which will not accept until they have had all their vaccinations I can't see what any of the sensible advise Goldmali has given you cannot be implemented immediately.  Infact should be inplemented immediately.

>Personally I think you should change your name from CHAMPDOGS to CHAMPDIGS.. It's all you're good for.

Personally, I think you have posted from the beginning to be deliberately provocative but we are each entitled to our opinion.  If you really have got all these dogs good luck to you, I shall leave you to others that have more patience than I :)

Yes and if you had actually read the post you would know, I have already implemented the crates/gates and separate training sessions, without any of your help. Oh and yes stooge you have offered me a world of advise.... *reads up the post* oh sorry, I take that back, you've offered me squat, but a repeat of someone else. Who still hasn't advised what actions I should take to minimise mistakes. I didn't think the question too difficult for your minds. I was lead to believe from reading other posts you could help. But now I realise, you only really help out each other. Asnyone else is not worthy. Perhaps another dog not worthy of help, because its not your dog.

I think it is pretty obvious why you really came on the site, you gave the game away when you reported mastifflover after coming on with a such a humble persona. I too am very astute when it comes to character and personality, you must have been very frustrated not to get the rise you hoped initially. ;-)

No I actually wanted help. I had been warned re this site, I really didn't believe it. I am so desperate for help so I don't create a problem for my Frenchy or pugs I have registered on another pet forum to see If they will be helpful in my plight. I'm not interested in a rise and apologised to mastifflover upon realising I had made a mistake, which she graciously accepted. I am guessing that was my Frenchys downfall. Upset one of you and help goes out the window. I honestly believe you DO NOT have an interest in the dog, but for bigging yourselves up and patting yourselves on the back. I couldn't care less about anyone of you.

Yours very disappointed

> I didn't think the question too difficult for your minds. I was lead to believe from reading other posts you could help

As I mentioned before you've taken on a situation that most of us would steer very clear from.  You've had some good general advice (which appears to have reinforced action you've already taken)  but the reason that there isn't much specific help is that we have no experience of taking on two pups with a 9 month old.  I like 3 years between dogs so that I can spread the training, the enjoyment, and hopefully not be left with multiple aged dogs.

Shouting about the lack of help isn't going to make any of us come up with a magic solution - we would not have put ourselves in your position.

How about talking to the breeder of your pugs?  If he/she was confident you'd be able to manage the situation then perhaps they also have relevant and specific advice for you.  It might also be worth talking to the breeder of your 9 month old - breed specific advice could also be useful in this instance to minimise the risk of future problems.  Not my breed so I can't comment as to whether her guarding behaviours are considered normal but a breeder could help you there.

Thank you, if she tries to guard me again, should I walk around instead of being sat, therefore she cannot guard. Merely follow? She only did it once and I don't want to reinforce her behaviour. I appreciate now you can't answer the question, because you just don't know.

I would have appreciated this In the beginning rather than trying to make out I am trying to make up for some kind of lacking in my life!!

Just for your interest... On the other forum I have posted on this was their first reply

Awww, no-one will shout at you, hang in there for some advice. Good luck

They made me cry with their kind words...

Goldmali has given a good summery of the advice allready given.

Unfortunately, other than that advice, you wont get much more direct advice for the guarding, especially as there are children and puppies involved, nobody is going to want to suggest anything that could make the problem worse and result in a bitten child or puppy.
Your frenchi is guarding you, she needs to be assesed by a behaviourist to determine the root of the problem, she may lack confidence, you could be inadvertantly encouraging the behaviour (just for clarification, this is NOT an accustion, just a possibility), there may be an underlying medical cause or any other number of reasons,or she may simply be unsettled due to the puppies arival. On top of this your frenchi is not yet mature, so there is still the question of wheather this behaviour is born from her testing her boundries due to natural development or her season (which still needs handling inthe right way to ensure thebehaviour does not become an ingrained habbit/worsened).

A good behaviourist will determine the reason behind the behaviour, thereby tailoring advice to suit her specifically. Well intentioned advice re. her guarding behaviour may make her worse, so specific advice (other than that allready given), is not likely be given.

> Awww, no-one will shout at you, hang in there for some advice. Good luck

LOL, that was very helpfull, I'm sure that gave you all the info you need to handle guarding issues and any potential problems that arise from having 2 pups at the same time ;)

Has your Frenchy had her first season, or could she be about to come in? Or could she be brewing a phantom pregnancy? Hormones can really unsettle them - get that sorted out and the problem may well disappear.

Just tagged this onto the end of this thread as it is now locked.
Advice; recommendation as to appropriate choice of action.
I realise we all encounter posters that exasperate us but not everyone can be an expert or have the foresight experience brings. It would be nice if new posters could ask, what to us may seem "obvious" questions without the CD witch hunt posse riding into town.
Jeff.