can a dog become nervous due to the owner being nervous as well,
this question was asked by someone yesterday when we where all sitting
around just talking  about dogs etc everyone thought yes proberly and then
someone said well if you where to take that dog away from the nervous person
and it went to a home where the people there where more confident would this
then rub off on the dog or would the dog still be jumpy and nervous some said
it would always be jumpy etc but others said that it would change as circumstances
had changed, what does everyone else think ?

Certainly nervous people unconsciously teach their dogs tobe nervous as well, and confident people teach their dogs to behave confidently. A dog can be rehabilitated out of a nervous state to a certain extent, but learned fears can become very deeply ingrained, and it will usually learn not to exhibit the fearful behaviour but that doesn't mean the fear has gone, just that the dog has learned not to ract in the same way. The dog will probably never be the naturally confident character it would have been without the bad start.

Dogs pick up on their owners reactions, so if an owner is nervous I would expect the dog to be either nervous or aggressive (trying to save the pack leader type of thing) so taking it away from a nervous owner MIGHT change the behaviour.

My ex took on a rescue where the dog was a bit jumpy. It had been an only dog, owned by a lady who was nervous. The dog spent the day in a run with 2 springers that were not the best behaved dogs in the world. He was supposed to be nervous of men, and had apparently nipped the local farmer when he got too close. My ex took him in, so the dog had 3 other (well behaved) dogs for company, and the dog has come on in leaps and bounds. He is no longer a jumpy dog, has quite happily fitted into the pack at the bottom of the pack and is a very normal well behaved dog. He was just happy to let someone else take the lead and he will follow (usually the youngest, so they get into a bit of bother now and then going through hedges and finding the muddiest puddle there is ;-) ) He was lucky in that he found an owner who could bring out the best in him. Doesn't always work though :-(

I was interested in this as ive been told my 2yearold,jess has nervous aggression as she often snaps at dogs if they come over to her,or even if we meet another dog on a path,my 8month old,gwen seems to be heading the same way and its been suggested to me that its rubbing off as i am a nervous type(not that I panic or shriek,or grab the leads up short,or anything, but i admit i do feel a bit apprehensive if another dog approaches,due to past problems.)
Instead of putting the leads on and walking past,which turns them into pulling monsters,i put the leads on and keep them in a down-am i doing the right thing?it seems to keep them calmer.I mean,ideally,id love to leave them loose and hope theyd play!

I would pop them on leads and walk them away - if you must go past instead of going directly away from oncoming dogs then try and walk in an arc (this is a calming signal in dogs, indicating a non-threat).  I wouldn't put them in a down - yes, this can also be a calming signal but only if the dog does it of their own free will - it's also a very vulnerable position, it leaves them open to attack (in their mind, anyhoo, even if that threat is not real) and it also means that if something were to happen, it will be harder for them to get away (they would have to stand up first, as opposed to just leaving if they're already stood up).

Also, what do you walk them on?  My oldest can be a pain if I try and keep walking once she's spotted a dog (she is nervous, mild fear aggression and once she sees them she fixates), so I walk her on a halti harness - that way when she tries to pull towards the dog she can't, and so far it has proven very effective as she's realised what's going on so is trying less to pull as it gets her nowhere.

Re. your original question - absolutely.  I've noticed it in my workings with aggressive dogs with apprehensive owners - when they handle the dog, the dog is tense, alert, reactive etc.  If I handle their dog (say, to demonstrate a coping method), the dog is noticeably calmer, less reactive and more able to learn what I'm trying to teach it.  I've had a fair few owners point it out to me - I think it's because I'm well versed in handling aggressive dogs (having had 3 of my own now), I am calm about it, I never get in a fluster or even worried because I know what to expect and how to deal with it.  The dogs pick up on it straight away.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't born that way - it took a while and was totally thanks to Soli in her early days here when she was at her worst (aggressive to me, other dogs, children).

Another question - do you always walk them together?  If the 8 month old is 'heading the same way' that suggests she is picking up the behaviour of the older dog and if you're nervous too, that'll be adding to it.  I would walk them separately while you work on the older dog's issues, even if it's only until you are confident about handling her so that the youngster can see you are in control of the situation.  It would also mean that youngster could have more opportunities to socialise which is vital in a young dog.

can a dog become nervous due to the owner being nervous as well,
this question was asked by someone yesterday when we where all sitting
around just talking  about dogs etc everyone thought yes proberly and then
someone said well if you where to take that dog away from the nervous person
and it went to a home where the people there where more confident would this
then rub off on the dog or would the dog still be jumpy and nervous some said
it would always be jumpy etc but others said that it would change as circumstances
had changed, what does everyone else think

Neurosis is highly contagious! ;)

thanks nikita,yes i do usually walk them together,and it hadnt occurred to me that because of avoiding other dogs if possible,gwen isnt being socialised,i will start making an effort there!she does go to a quite busy training class,but as she sleeps a lot there,doesnt really interract with the dogs.Daft question-does a dog have to be off lead,no,i mean in contact with another dog to socialise,so it can sniff,play etc,or does just being near other dogs-like in a class situation,count as socialising?she mixes well with my friends 8 dogs,as does jess,and my daughters 3
I did consider a halti,but felt it was like taking the easy option or giving up-polly my trainer would scoff!however-she neednt know!ill have a look,thanks again for the advice!

i have a dog who previously lived with a very highly strung nervous over-reacting sort of person...

She is still a nervous dog prone to overreacting, but she is infinitely improved in the year she has been with us - she no longer requires diazepam from the vets, she will now accept all manner of food rewards in all but the most extreme circumstances (even during fireworks!), she also comes to US when she is scared now, previously she actively avoided people when scared and sought to escape!

How much of her nerves is due to her previous life and how much is down to her breeding (saluki x afghan) I don't know. I know she was rehomed originally because she used to frantically scrabble at doors and windows to get out when scared, and this behaviour worsened with the next owner (the nervy one), but I;ll never know if this behaviour was caused by some specific event or just gradually built up over time.

She is definitely relaxing and becoming less reactive - yesterday she met a new dog in less than ideal circumstances (in my garden with three of the others whizzing about) - where she would originally have gone nuts at him, lunging and biting and being pretty obnoxious, this time she stuck to just faces and when reminded seh COULD move away, she did that and rapidly accepted the visiting dog and behaved nicely. In fact she only became 'facey' and anxious when crowded by people which I think is very telling. When it was just dogs she relaxed massively!

Just being near them is not what I would consider full socialisation.  Being around calm, under control dogs is good but to really learn to read (and give) body language properly I believe dogs need to interact fully with other dogs - in a training class, dogs are on lead, on headcollars etc which can restrict their ability to communicate properly.

It's great that she has friends to play with - but dogs can learn how to interact with a set group and not how to be polite and act appropriately around strange dogs.  I've seen it with Soli in my own pack (she copes just fine with them but a strange dog is another matter - unpredictable), and I've seen it in a friend's dog (she had 8 when the pup came, thought it would be enough socialisation and it wasn't - she's had to work at nerves about other dogs out and about since).

It really does sound like she needs some one-to-one work as she's picking up on Jess's issues and with the restriction, won't be learning for herself that other dogs can be a good thing.  If you can walk and socialise her separately, it could be a twofold reward - on the one hand, you'll not be worrying about her reactions as she'll be better able to cope with strange dogs; and on the other, if she learns they are good then her confidence and approach may just help Jess too.

Re. the headcollar - ignore the trainer :-P if a headcollar would help with control and help you be calmer than go for it.  Not my first choice for the reasons I mentioned above but, first things first you need to be confident handling her, and if a headcollar will help with that, it will make a world of difference.

Thankyou nikita,i agree,a headcollar makes a lot of sense,im going to order a couple today,im fed up of being dragged about!-also cant be good for their windpipes!im going to make it a rule that i get out with gwen on her  own every day,even if its only hanging around on the rec,waiting for doggy companionship.I should have thought of this,Im cross with myself!
It sounds like youve done really well with Soli!,I really hope I can turn jess s behaviour round,and stop gwen from doing it,Il let you know how we get on!Weve started off ok-on the way back this morning,there was a gsd on the rec,my 2 were offlead,it came over,there was a bit of mooching about between all three,but no trouble!I had to squash my apprehension though!

> also cant be good for their windpipes!

And there you've hit upon a point I neglected to mention - unexpected associations!  Basically speaking, if the dog's pulling/lunging is causing them pain it can get associated with other dogs - and the dog can learn to associate the thing that hurts them with other dogs, too.

Soli did it - when I met her she was a on a PAH no-pull harness (tighten under the arms job) and she'd associated the pain under her armpits, which increased when she lunged, with both the harness and other dogs: and therefore, a harness + other dogs meant pain.  I couldn't walk her in a harness for quite a while - the aggression was stepped up immediately and significantly when she had one on, even just a normal walking one.

I think the same thing would happen just on a flat collar - it's maybe coincidence but I notice that when I used to work my oldie years ago on a collar she was a lot worse to start with - when she got up here, it transpired that she had neck damage from all the years of pulling on the flat collar; put her in a harness and she was a lot better.

But even if just to spare your girl the pain that Tia's had from her neck from the pulling, it's worth a change ;-)

yes,i agree,ive just been looking on ebay,but my brain has turned to mush after our agility class-il have another try in the morning.Yes-it makes sense associating pain with the other dog-good point and one id not thought of.Thanks!

Ive just ordered a couple of haltis for Jess and Gwen,can I ask for your thoughts on what happened yesterday,please?I took Gwen(8 months)out on her own with a view to letting her meet a few dogs,she was off lead throughout(i tried to keep the adrenaline in!)the first dog,a friendly collie,she shot at him and air snapped,then retreated sharply,later,another dog ran at her barking,she ran backwards and barked,the few others we met,she just avoided them.If i keep her on lead,shes not going to socialise,but off,she wont either,as shes scared,or nips them!Is it early days,do i keep letting her meet other dogs,and hope things improve,or am i completly off the beam?Im afraid this is one area im just not confident in how to behave,and im scared of making things worse.Itd be so easy to do what ive always done if a dog is a bit iffy with others,which is avoid other dogs as much as poss,and put mine on leads when we cant avoid them,but it would be nice to not have to worry!