Just a couple of quick questions - are licensed breeders obliged to state they are licensed when advertising puppies?  And trying to measure public opinion.....does stating they are licensed breeders give them improved credibility or make you less inclined to purchase a pup from them?
I'm not a breeder - licensed or otherwise but I do occasionally keep an overview on free ads sites.....just cos I'm nosey I guess!

Do you mean licensed by the local council, if so that would put me off. Being an KC approved breeder would not affect me one way or the other I would always visit and get to know what the breeder was producing before I purchased but the fact that someone requires a council license would make me wonder why they needed it and I would be even more careful.

Ditto Nova; if someone breeds so many litters that they require a council licence it would deter me from buying from them.

I have never bought a dog off a licensed breeder but no it wouldn't put me off as it's not necessarily the number of litters, that is if you have 5 in a year then you have to be, but if you have less, but your council thinks they'd like you to be licensed then they can - so it depends very much on your local council as well as the breeders circumstances.  Lots of reputable people are licensed... although I have to say some allegedly reputable people I believe are very much 'puppy farmers' having many many dogs and many many litters, but 5 in one year could mean they were very well spaced out and they had exciting plans for breeding.  Actually saying that, I don't know about my first 2 dogs, they may have been licensed, but since then not.  However, it's not a 'crime' to be licensed, many top show kennels (not necessarily making them 'reputable') may well be licensed, I would look at each breeder on their merits, not just make assumptions.

Personally I would want to know why anyone was breeding more than one litter a year, not that I see a problem in that I would just want to know why before I would deal with the breeder, come to think of it I would want to know why they were breeding at all but then they would want to know why I wanted a puppy so no problem.

but 5 in one year could mean they were very well spaced out and they had exciting plans for breeding.
Perfectly evenly spaced (and how likely is that to happen, really? all bitches would have to come in season exactly when you wanted them to) would basically mean the breeder had pups all the time, all year round -counting on one litter being kept for 2 months. I think I'd rather go to the dentist every month than have pups all the time -I'd be so worn out all the energy for the next litter would be gone. And as I breed for something to keep to show, how would I have time to train a socialise a new pup with a new litter on the ground? I have exciting breeding plans but that doesn't have to mean they all have to happen instantly.

Do you mean licensed by the local council......  Yes.

Interesting insights - thanks.

Personally, I feel that holding a local council licence and owning/breeding multiple breeds makes me run a mile......but I can appreciate the statement that each breeder (or 'breeder') should be merited individually.

The reason my curiousity was peaked is that I noted recent adverts placed by a 'breeder' no longer have Licensed Breeder declared on them. 

Do councils openly share information about licensed breeders....?  They have told me previously this 'breeder' had the maximum amount of dogs registered - just under 50. :-o

Nice way to supplement a pension.....  :-(

Just to add in our districe anything over 2 females a licence is required.

prob because its a small minded tiny little town and the council will do anything to bump up their funds lol

Spaced out often in the way that another poster has mentioned in another thread.. by having people with their dogs (remember the 'letting people have them for nothing' ???) so that you don't actually have pups in your house, but you are responsible for them and have to be licensed... so you can have a couple in your own house and several in other peoples.... you don't have to have them all at your place!  Plus of course there can be two or three in partnership with the same affix

so that you don't actually have pups in your house, but you are responsible for them and have to be licensed...

?? That's usually how people get round NOT having to be licensed!

No, if the dogs are 'owned' by you (which they'd have to be to have your affix) then you have 'ownership' and therefore their litters are your litters so you have to be licensed if the numbers reach 5, so you have 2 litters of your own and 3 in other people's houses, that means you have to be licensed.

I could have 10-15 litters a year and therefore need a license, certainly I would have the buyers and I could easily build up numbers to provide that number.

What stops me? Is it because I dont want a license? Or that I dont want my hobby to become a business? Or is it because I think each and every little life I bring into this world is my responsibility and I couldnt live with myself?

Being asked for puppies all the time is very seducing so no wonder 'Top kennels' are tempted to breed so much..... but doesnt the weight of responsibility get to them? Sad if it doesnt :-(

So in answer to Licensed breeders.....Id need to be pretty desperate :-(

It amazes me how many licensed breeders declare this on their adverts in such a way as to make potential buyers think it is impressive in some way and that it "proves" they are reputable.  Sadly, the public are generally  still very naive when it comes to puppy buying (imo) and many will fall for this marketing ploy.

As a puppy buyer, it would make me want to know the reasoning, but not necessarily put me off as it would also depend more on the individual circumstances too.

A breeder who lives on her own with multiple large breed litters of lots of puppies, that would put me off - as I'd worry about socialisation, and also why so many litters are being bred. But if my licensed breeder turned out to be a family where each of the parents and grown-up children had an interest in breeding/owning/showing a breed known for small litters, then I'd be less concerned - that's more explainable and managable.

Don't forget though it does depend on each Council's requirements so if you have 2 breeding bitches in some areas then you need a license so you may not even breed a litter a year, but you'd still need licensing!

Whilst I think a lot of so called reputable breeders are little more than puppy farmers, look on their website and the vast number of dogs they 'own' although they may not all live at their address, they see themselves as 'reputable'.  I wouldn't buy from them like I wouldn't buy from someone 'back yard breeding' just one bitch... it's all 'relative' and there's so much between the two extremes that I wouldn't make sweeping assumptions about anyone - either because they were or weren't 'licensed' or even assume that 'accredited' meant 'reputable' I usually buy from people I know or through recommendations (even buying my american dog!) so I buy with confidence.  I also hope that people don't make assumptions about me - everyone who's come here though has tales to tell of horrendous conditions found elsewhere and such relief at finding someone who cares - particularly when I say I want to keep in touch... shocking how some breeders operate :-(

I find it amazing that people in agility seem to buy from people I see as 'puppy farmers' - people who I think should know better :-(

I find it amazing that people in agility seem to buy from people I see as 'puppy farmers' - people who I think should know better

Could this be because the PF pups are cheaper and the conformation doesn't matter?

Crafty way of getting around the council rules if you have bitches staying elsewhere like foster dogs which may still be having pups for you to go on and sell and then presumingly sharing some of the proceeds with the fosterers, the KC would then be clueless that the dogs were not with you.

Can the council find out from the KC how many dogs you have registered to you? A breeder friend once told me that when she checked online as to how many she had there were 43[she only had 8 dogs at the time] because over the years majority of the pet puppy owners had never transferred them into their own name, so if the council had access to those figures then the breeder would have to try and explain the numbers they say they have and the numbers the KC says they have.

Is there any way of finding out online how many litters a breeder is producing each year?

I hadn't even thought about litters from a co ownership agreement being lumped together re numbers with what litters you breed yourself.

Purely hypothetically

Say I had 2 litters and 2 bitches in co ownership with 2 other breeders had a litter each within 12 months would that then count as me having 4 litters when it came to the KC? Does this apply if they don't have my affix or any affix if the co owners don't have one?

Sorry for all the questions but they kept coming to me as I was typing.

Could this be because the PF pups are cheaper and the conformation doesn't matter?

Well conformation isn't only coat and head and colour -it is also very much body and one thing agility people need for sure is a good set of hips and patellae. So a puppy farm bred dog could be disaster.

No, if the dogs are 'owned' by you (which they'd have to be to have your affix) then you have 'ownership' and therefore their litters are your litters so you have to be licensed if the numbers reach 5, so you have 2 litters of your own and 3 in other people's houses, that means you have to be licensed.

The council would however never know! We know the KC does not inform if somebody breeds more than 4 litters a year. This is obviously why people do it.

Council's do, of course, check with KC to see who are breeding what - a lot of it is in the quarterly records, but having said that I've noticed that someone I know who had two litters at the same time has one of the dogs registered in someone else's name :-( They also check websites and other forms of 'advertisements'.

As for agility - they often get the idea that someone is a good source of dogs, although it may back fire on them and then they say 'oh I didn't know that' - sometimes because it appears that a breeder's dogs do well :-( of course if you sell a lot of dogs into agility then at least some of them may do ok...  one of the breeders always has 'pups available' and culls pups who are black and white or smooth coated because 'agility people prefer rough coated and coloured :-( gasses them according to their own words.

Dogs may well be from health tested parents - but to my eyes these people are puppy farmers, who else would have pups always available????  Trouble is people ring me and ask 'have you any pups?' and when I say no, but hope to have some next year, or next month and they don't want to wait - so who do they go to????

" one of the breeders always has 'pups available' and culls pups who are black and white or smooth coated because 'agility people prefer rough coated and coloured  gasses them according to their own words."

That is awful to cull on the grounds of coat/colour/pattern, I am sure there must be someone out there who would love them, I suppose if you are breeding loads of puppies each year you won't miss a few and can charge more for the others to make up for it. I am sure "gassing " can't be legal.

I hate seeing websites where the prices vary, all in the same breed, depending on sex/colour/pattern and rare put by the ones with the biggest price tags which are not rare just poor knowledge on what 2 colours/patterns to mix together.

one of the breeders always has 'pups available' and culls pups who are black and white or smooth coated because 'agility people prefer rough coated and coloured  gasses them according to their own words.

I noticed a BC Breeder on one of the dog advertising sites....who always has pups available....usually the same photo as well.....

In fact I had someone come to see My puppies about 20 months ago....who told me that My little ones were expensive compared to this other breeder...

Council's do, of course, check with KC to see who are breeding what

I don't for a moment believe that every council checks out every breeder in the area with the KC to see if they have registered more puppies. They wouldn't even know where to start -how would they?! We're talking about the UNlicensed breeders, after all.

They look on the registers and see who's breeding :-) and of course they look on adverts too, people also ring them....

Are the " registers" the 3 monthly BRS? It would take a while to wade their way through those, are they available online.

I was chatting to a friend in Edinburgh about this. They are trying to make it a local law that if you breed just one litter a year you have to be licensed. That's taking it a bit far, even if I can see where the council is coming from. Don't they realise it won't stop the 'just having a litter off my bitch before getting her spayed' brigade? Or the back yard breeders who will carry on breeding the poor unhealthy pups off bitches season after season? How are they going to check every household, every litter? Not well thought through I think.

I don't for a moment believe that every council checks out every breeder in the area with the KC

Nor do I Goldmali, it would require at least one full time member of staff and I can't see that being likely, after all a plum job for the canine minded I am sure we would have at least one on the forum.

Nor me, but I am aware that they DO check up with KC and through the press/internet (as I used to work with the people who did this and also have had a conversation with our local licensing officer) - they wont pick up everybody, but they do check.  Of course some councils couldn't care less :-(