Hi all

Just doing a bit of swatting up on breeding, I was reading in the book of the bitch about the different types of breeding ie, in breeding, outcrossing & line breeding, I understand the outcrossing theory, and the line breeding to, but I am a little stumped on the in breeding. I understand that it means put simply mating the bitch to a very close relative such as half brother or grandfather, could yopu tell me if these following relatives would be classed as in breeding

Breeding bitch to.......uncle
breeding bitch to......G grandfather
breeding bitch to......nephew

and any more you can think of.

Could you also tell me if this is a good way to breed or do you think it runs risks of breeding in unwanted features and inherited condtitions such as hip dysplasia and eye probs..............Which of the 3 breeding methods do you think work best? and why, :)............if you think in breeding is the wrong way to breed could you tell the distance there would have to between bitch and dog to classed as outcrossing ( 2 generations 5 generations etc etc.)

Trying to do as much research as possiable for the future (got another year of swatting up yet though) before I even consider breeding a litter with Saskia, and we are concentrating on the showing side at tyhe moment so why we are doing that I though now would be a good idea to cram as much info into my brain as poss lol :) :) :)

Heidi

I'm not a breeder, but to simplify things in my mind, I'd be disturbed if I saw two matching names anywhere on my dogs pedigree papers. There are enough examples of in breeding in my village without dragging the dogs into it ! :D
Julie :)

Line breeding is a very useful tool provided the breeder knows their bloodlines back to front & knows exactly what they are line breeding to. Many successful kennels have been based on clever line-breeding, both show & working kennels. I would be more concerned if I saw a pedigree which was just a hotch potch of different lines as this often demonstrates someone who doesn't know what they are doing :D Carefully chosen outcrosses are also used by successful breeders but not continually - they will be used for a specific purpose & with a particular aim in mind eg to correct a particular fault or bring in a particular attribute. Line breeding will not bring out hereditary defects unless they are there lurking in the background to be brought out -this is why knowledge of bloodlines is vitally important. It would be v foolhardy to line breed to dog "X" if for example, he was a proven carrier of a serious genetic defect but some inexperienced breeders do do this because they haven't done their homework properly :-(

PS There are lots of internet sites which go into more detail on linebreeding/inbreeding etc. This is a nice basic one to start with

If you go far enough back on any pedigree you will find matching names!!! If you study any wild dog packs, you would find that they have no restrictions on whom mates whom except that the best mate the best. You would quite often find that a father has mated a daughter etc. etc.

Personally I would not mate closer than Grandfather /Grandaughter or Uncle /Niece but there are successful breeders out there that do just that. What you will find is that anyone who line breeds will every so often outcross to bring in new bloodlines.

My most recent champion has one dog that appeared three times in her 5 generation pedigree and another that appeared twice, both of these were very good dogs with very few breed faults and certainly no nasty things lurking in their backgrounds, I will be mating her this year and she is being taken to her Grandfather. When you are breeding to get a particular type of dog then by line breeding you are reducing the gene pool, so it is much more likely that you will obtain the type you prefer and weed out any bad faults. Outcrossing is very much more a lottery.

To in breed closely is an art and takes the most tremendous amount of knowledge of every dog that is being doubled up on (both good and bad points).

Too clarify my dogs certificate has 5 generations on it,kennel names appear often but not exactly the same dog.
.....as I said I'm not a breeder but I do know what lines I prefer in my dogs breed and fully accept alot of hard work and unquestionable experience has gone into perfecting those lines. It's possibly less common to see matches on papers because it is still a relatively rare breed in the UK and imports appear frequently.
Julie :)

If you check back on the Import Pedigrees I would be very surprised if there is not a high incidence of line breeding.

If there isn't I would agree with Brainless then a lot of haphazard breeding has gone on.

I would certainly think that as your breed is a relatively rare breed in the the UK (I do not know your breed by the way), the the gene pool available over here will be relatively small as well, and the incidence of line or inbreeding will become more common in very few generations.

nice one julie....i liked that:):O

If I saw a pedigree of five generations and there were no names at all in common, even in the later generations then I would suspect that the pup was very haphazardly breed.

We are actually allowed to marry a first Cousin (only 3 sets of great Grandparents, so having two ancestors repeated twice in 3rd generation) giveing a higher inbreeding coeficient than most pedigrees when names are repeated at the back of a pedigree.

One ancestor in the fifth generation only accounts for for 1/32nd (3.125%) of the blood, so if he appears twice it still only accounts for twice that 6.25%.

A dog appearing once in the third and once in fourth generation will still have less influence (18.75%) on the pups than a parent or Grandparent.

The reasons related animals are mated together is that one hopes to get the same points in the offspring, if the parents have more of the same genes in common, then the chances of producing offspring like the parents is increased over that based on unrelated animals.

Only probelm is the good and bad traits are equally likely to be inherited. Inbreeding does not create a problem, it only makes it more likely to come to the surgace if it is there.

Take the various lottery games. the chances of getting the same six numbers come up out of the 49 available, is something like 6 million to one. Now anyone who plays the rollover game, where fewer numbers are needed for a win, out of less numbers, and the chances increase.

Therefore a highly heritable trait (governed by few genes) is likely to come through in pups from related parents (fewer numbers) than unrelated. on the other hand traits that require complex combinations of genes in order to be expressed (more numbers have to come up) then the same happens as with the lottery, but obviously the chances are still greater the fewer numbers there are.

This is the reason thatwith any breeding, but especially pedigree dog breeding where by the fact that the dogs are the same breed means they are more related than two dogs of different breeds, requires knowledge and study of the individual dogs (their strengths and weaknesses) in pedigrees. If one is mating dogs with ancestors in common within a 5 generation pedigree this information is even more important.

Really interesting - thank you :)

Daisy

I always like to breed animals together with at least two matching grandparents. I find the pups are more likely to be of a similar "type" throughout the litter. A pedigree with a complete mix of animals I would view with some concern - the more animals you introduce, the more potential faults you bring in.

Linebreeding or inbreeding cannot create genetic problems, but it will strengthen any already there, so you have to know all the individual dogs by more than just name! Likewise it will firmly establish good points, which is what breeding is all about.

:D :D :D :D :D :D@Julie- same in my village;)

Stacey x x x

Depends who you talk to. I would consider them linebreeding. think about it you can legally matty your First Cousin.

DOGS, I would consider it line breeding, and as has already been said, I would view with suspicion, a pedigree with lots of different names & appearing as if bred in a haphazzard manner.
You need to have a lot of breed knowledge to do this successfully, and in my opinion it takes years of experience to be able to see the pros & cons of various lines & know whats behind them. I have been in my breed for 12 years, but when I look for a stud dog I always consult my friend who has had them for 35 years. She can remember characters of hounds from 20 or 30 years ago & temperaments etc. Its wonderful to be able to sit down with her & go through all the names on a pedigree & find out what they were REALLY like!

Thanks for the replys thet have been interesting :)

I would consider in breeding to be
brother to sister
half brother to half sister
Daughter ( or son) to parent

Not sure about grandfather to grandaughter, That is the closest I would ever consider going, though haven't yet.

To all

Do you think grand child to granparent is in breeding?

How about cousins or uncle and neice?

heidi

cousin to uncle/niece is line breeding

There was an article on the radio only a very few months ago where the scientists studying the dogs genetic code have managed to prove that ALL domestic dogs are descended from just two common ancestors! So from that it follows that ALL dogs are line/in bred to a greater or lesser extent.

Moving further up to date it is a fact the following the war, lack of registered Flatcoated Retrievers meant the there were only 16 registered Flatcoats left in the country. A degree of in/line breeding was the only way the breed could be re-established.

Look in any breed and you will see dogs which appear on almost all pedigrees. They may have dropped off the back of a 5 generation pedigree but go back another two or three generations and there they are. Shargleam Blackcap in Flatcoats, Ruler of Blaircourt in Labradors, Cambus Christopher in Goldens to name just 3 dogs in 3 breeds! I'm sure the breed experts in other breeds can come up with one in virtually every breed!!!

Regards, John

hi
i think if stafford people look back in their pedigree BLACK TUSKER is sure to be there too.

Yeah that would be the one, lots of Lethal Weapon now too on newer dogs.

During the 2 World Wars, very little dog breeding was done - very few people could afford to keep dogs with the rationing....people would queue to have their dogs destroyed. All breeds suffered an enormous reduction in the gene pool at these times. Trace pedigrees back to just after WW2 and they'll be almost identical....in dalmatians you'll find Brougham Banker and Ch Tompkins of the Towpath.

Just a little quote , for which I can't claim credit, nor can I remember who said it....

'Linebreeding - is when it works...
Inbreeding - is when it doesn't'

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

LOL Jo! :-)