I've said on a number of occasions that I don't breed and do not intend to but I do have an academic interest piqued by you lot, and because I show my dogs.  There is another thread currently running here about which has touched on this topic - but that isn't the place to discuss it in detail so I thought I'd put it here.

Can I start with a question: when you calculate profit or loss what do you put in your outgoings column?  It seems that is one of the places where breeders might differ enormously.  For instance do you only include the costs associated with the actual mating, delivery and puppy raising OR would you also include showing costs and health tests in there as well (given that those might be recouped across more than one litter)?

Also, I'd assume that there will be a large variance across breeds due to numbers of puppies, the prices charged for puppies, the cost of a stud dog, and also whether any additional vet expenses were required such as caesarian or out of hours care.  In that respect I'd imagine there isn't one finite answer but is it safer to assume that you won't make any money?  OR is the lack of profit one way that you'd hope to dissuade people who are only interested in money from exploiting their dogs?

I think if you're being sensible you'd include all the costs for the first litter from an individual, although some wouldn't necessarily count towards the costs of subsequent litters. Hip-scoring would only apply to the first litter because that's a one-off test. Annual eye tests would obviously count in the first litter and also subsequent ones. The purchase of a puppy pen would probably be a one-off cost; I'm still using the puppy panels I bought for a litter 16 years ago.

I think it's pushing it a bit to include the costs of continued showing after your animal has been shown for a couple of seasons and proved itself as suitable.

Stud fees, ovulation tests, scanning, extra food for the pregnant bitch, post-whelping vet checks etc - all are valid expenses. If you're lucky enough not to have to work for a living then you wouldn't cost in your time, but if you do and either have to take unpaid leave or employ someone to look after the bitch and litter, then those costs would be included. Puppy food, bowls, registration, puppy health tests (BAER for my breed), puppy packs, wormers; these would all be included as outgoings.

As I've only had litters in order to keep a puppy I've only broken even; the only way I can see to make a profit if you have a small litter is to either sell every puppy or charge over the odds for the you do sell. A litter of over 8 puppies is more likely to be profitable.

In my current breed it is pretty unlikely that anyone doing it ethically could be anything but very out of pocket.

MRI scan, heart, eyes, DNA screening and all over the age of 2.5 years ( although Im leaving mine to around 3.5 years now) takes a fair chunk of money.

Stud fee, fully vaccinating and microchipping the pups, pet passporting Mum (and sometimes one or two of the pups) adds to the total.

But if you factor in car, fuel, entries, sundries for showing...all of which the taxman would accept as expenditure..then this is a very expensive non profit making hobby.

I generally sell only one puppy per year, the others are either kept, go to friends or sometimes stay with me until they are around 4-5 months
( tut tut) until they are exported to people I know well, in countries where I will be able to access studs I couldnt otherwise get to.
If I keep one, give one or two away to friends and sell one...I would estimate each puppy would cost me around £100-£200 (and pondering on that figure I suspect much more). But thats my choice.....same as I dont use my dogs at stud.

If someone has a breed which has big litters , health testing is reasonable and one off, only keeps one or none and then sells them for high prices......then yes of course they can make money. Some people have lavish holidays curtesy of their dogs.

> then this is a very expensive non profit making hobby.

Surely breeders are either 'hobby' breeders, in which case they should only be trying to recoup some of the extra costs of breeding or they are 'professional' breeders. If a 'hobby' breeder, profit wouldn't even come into it as a hobby is only, ever, an expense :) If you can't afford to breed then why do it ?? :) My understanding of breedng (from what I have read on here over the years) is that 'good' breeders only breed when they want a puppy for themselves ie to further their showing/working hobby and to continue a line. If someone can't afford to breed then why don't they just buy a puppy from someone who can afford to breed ??

Maybe I am being naive here (I don't breed obviously :) :) ) - but I can't understand why the word 'profit' comes into the discussion (unless we do have some professional breeders on here :) :) )

For tax purposes you can include things like the cost of purchase price of dogs (if you buy them), including ones you buy but don't end up breeding from because they're not 'good' enough for whatever reason, you can include cost of a vehicle, caravan, travel costs etc if you use them for shows, entries etc - because it's part of your breeding process in showing off and proving your dogs.  You can include costs of keeping your dogs over their lifetime too. All tests etc should be included.  You can include time spent with the litter - additional electricity (heating etc) for the litters, costs of advertising, etc etc.   Working it all out no money is made by hobby breeders - in fact in order to 'make' money you have to cut out the health tests, cut down on the food etc for pups and mums, have more litters from each dog, have more dogs, rehome them when they've finished breeding, be ruthless on any sick pup or dog etc  Its numbers really - more litters (which is why 'commercial' breeders don't like the new 4 litter restriction). No one seeking to make a profit would have spent (like I did) well over £1k on one poorly puppy.

Even if you look without the extra costs - if you bred say two litters from a bought in border collie bitch.  £400 purchase price, £600 health tests (hip score, DNA - TNS & CEA) £150 eye tests (annual plus one-off glaucoma), £300 stud fee  £100 in vet checks  £90 kc registration £70 wormer is £1620 outgoings before vet bedding (£50), whelping box (£50 for throw away) food and toys for mum and pups (say £500) - another £600 total £2,220.  6 pups at £350-£450 each are £2,100-2,700.  Profit?  We've not considered food and vet treatment for 15 years for the bitch, show entries, training fees, transport to shows, electricity for heating and lighting, taking time off work.  So for the second litter you may make a profit, but you'd want to keep a pup, so say costs of £1,110 and income of £1,750-2,250 What if a C-section was needed? What if there was only 1 pup? or 2 pups or say 3 pups and you kept one? income of £700-£900 - but at least you've got your pup.  What if you had 2 pups in first litter and 2 in second??

(Daisy I used the word profit in my original question simply to distinguish between money made and expenses ie profit and loss, or incomings and outgoings if you will.  Also to pick up on language already used in the earlier thread.  I didn't intend it to imply a 'business' :) )

> Surely breeders are either 'hobby' breeders, in which case they should only be trying to recoup some of the extra costs of breeding or they are 'professional' breeders. If a 'hobby' breeder, profit wouldn't even come into it as a hobby is only, ever, an expense

Daisy
It may depend on the bigger picture ie over a number of years, the breed and the luck of that breeder.
If you take my friend who had only 2 litters of Dalmatians....one of 15 and one of 14 ( I think or it may have been 16 and 15)...yes they BAER tested mother and pups, registered them etc and kept one from each litter  but...they couldnt fail to make a big profit.
Because they were fairly new to showing ( taking their only show bitch out of the ring to have these litters), both early retirees and the dog they used was a good one but, lucky for them, fairly local....their outgoings were fairly low..apart from food of course.The bitch delivered and reared them without vet intervention.

They bought a new car from the proceeds. The experience, however, traumatised them and wrecked their house and garden.
They never did it again :-)

> Daisy I used the word profit in my original question simply to distinguish between money made and expenses ie profit and loss, or incomings and outgoings if
> you will.  Also to pick up on language already used in the earlier thread.  I didn't intend it to imply a 'business' )

OK -  I accept that, but the word 'profit' IS used a lot on here and most people who use it mean it (or, make take it as meant) in the business sense :) :) I have a hobby growing fruit and vegetables. I might sell some at the gate etc etc but I wouldn't even bother working out whether I make a profit or not - it's my hobby. The act of calculating profit might indicate whether or not the activity is worth carrying on with - therefore not a profitable activity :) :)

I think the word 'profit' is used precisely because from the outside a lot of people believe that there is a lot of money to be made by breeding.  That anyone who breeds a litter must be making money, so to put them straight those of us who work hard to do it right can only say that if done right there is NO profit.  We're trying to say we're not doing it as a business as there is no profit.  If you get a one off where you make a bit more money than you spent on that litter then in all honestly it gets plowed right back into the dogs. 

So when the discussion of 'profit' comes up it's usually because someone is trying to explain that if done well you cannot make a fortune by breeding, and that those of us who are hobby breeders don't make a profit - like you may sell some of your veg, but don't make a profit. 

For the majority of us on this board we aren't breeding for profit or loss, we are breeding because we are wanting a pup to carry on with.  Yes we could buy one in, and we know going into it there's no profit so if we couldn't afford to do it then we wouldn't.  No one is complaining that there isn't profit - they're explaining that there isn't.

Just  tagging on the end here :-D

Could anyone realistically say that a profit couldn't be made on those breeds where pups cost in excess of £1000? sometimes even £2000 depending on lines, sex and colour? Not talking singletons here, but average size litters of 4 or 5, maybe not a 1st litter where you might deduct the cost of the bitch and health tests, but taking into consideration the  likelihood of c section, registrations, worming, food etc......

> For the majority of us on this board we aren't breeding for profit or loss, we are breeding because we are wanting a pup to carry on with.  Yes we could buy one in, and we know going into it there's no profit so if we couldn't afford to do it then we wouldn't.  No one is complaining that there isn't profit - they're explaining that there isn't.

How well put :)

Most of us do not have finite resources, so often have to save up to breed that litter, or cut back other parts of the hobby (number of shows or dog entered) or outgoings.  I don't go on holiday as such. 

I have had the odd show weekend away, my honeymoon 2 years ago, and did Butlins with the kids more than 10 years before, though did do the long weekends there away with them most years before when they were young enough to get half price and a free child place.

Killichick these are more likely to be BYB or designer breeds that are sold at these sort of prices :-)

A look on the Petplan puppy site is interesting re prices.

It does seem that most medium size breeds, With litter sizes around 6, pups from well bred health tested stock  are sold at between £450 - £700, then there are the fashionable money making breeds and crossbreeds. 

LJS, not only them but a few other  breeds too....mine included! ;-)

Could anyone realistically say that a profit couldn't be made on those breeds where pups cost in excess of £1000? sometimes even £2000 depending on lines, sex and colour? Not talking singletons here, but average size litters of 4 or 5, maybe not a 1st litter where you might deduct the cost of the bitch and health tests, but taking into consideration the  likelihood of c section, registrations, worming, food etc......

Not sure which breeds you're talking about.  I have shelties which aren't that sort of price but I've heard american line shelties can sell for £1k (not the reason I now have a USA import!) but sheltie breeding is very difficult -

My first bitch - cost £650 had her eye tested, CEA DNA (carrier) and she's had 2 litters, 3 pups in total, including 2 born by C-section (out of hours of course!), one puppy had an eye problem (caused probably by wormer) so I've sold 2 pups at £650 each - total 'income' against costs for keeping the bitch for say 14 years - didn't even cover the costs of producing the litters!  Now she's concentrating on her agility.  My USA import has cost me (due to having to spend 6 months in France) about £6k so far just to buy, for me to fly over there, 6 months in kennels and for me to drive down and pick him up.  Now I'm having him eye tested, DNA CEA tested and hip scored.  Not sure how much half USA pups will sell for - but say £750.  I'm hoping to put my girl who had 6 pups earlier this year to him next year - so hoping for 4-6 pups.  Obviously I'm hoping to keep one for myself, but that may bring in £2-3k but with costs to be taken away from that - clearly I'd have to have a number of litters to get anyway to recouping the costs involved.

A friend has a dog where pups go for quite a lot - but she drove to Czech for a stud dog and the bitch had one pup!  So she went back I think and she's had 3 pups - again not even covering petrol costs!

I am sure that if you pick and choose your breed you may find somehow to make some form of 'surplus' but it's not easy if you do it right and for the fun and interest.  Commercial breeders make money on cutting costs, large numbers, picking breeds for ease of whelping and sales etc.  They also rehome bitches and have strict culling policy - don't waste money on sickly animals!  If you're doing it because you love your dogs and want to produce good quality, healthy pups, it's difficult to make a profit - although you may have some 'cash flow'.  Without going into much detail I totted up that I'd need to have income of over £10k each and every year in order to start to concern the tax office - you'd need a large number of litters to even begin to get anywhere near that!  I stopped before I got too frightened!  There were plenty more costs to take into account.

Can I ask why in your particular breed and what are the breed average for litter sizes ?

That's just the price they are, brindles being the cheapest! Average litters are usually 2-5. Daresay, with the popularity growing, higher profile in the media and many celebs now owning :( the price by BYB and puppy farms will increase. Show breeders prices will stay static I hope!

> Killichick these are more likely to be BYB or designer breeds that are sold at these sort of prices

Or Mastiffs.....

ETA, you can pick up mastiff pups for as little as £300, 'mum and dad both can be seen as they both live in the same house, KC reg, flead, loads of champs in pedigree'.

The BYB also can make a living by selling pups much cheaper that the 'going rate' for pup from a respected breeder.

Oh I agree! Especially as they will have more than 1 bitch, so more than 2 litters a year and of course will more than likely breed every year! :-(

>If I keep one, give one or two away to friends and sell one...I would estimate each puppy would cost me around £100-£200 (and pondering on that figure I suspect much more). But thats my choice.....same as I dont use my dogs at stud.

Now don't shoot me down in flames this is a genuine question...............Is it common practice to give puppies away to friends?

In my current litter I am getting money for one puppy -half price. In my previous litter I got paid for 3 out of 9. The right homes matters more than anything else.

I agree the right home is paramount but do you think because someone is given a puppy they will look after it better than if they paid the full price?

If not what's the reason for giving them away or only asking half price?

I agree the right home is paramount but do you think because someone is given a puppy they will look after it better than if they paid the full price?

Fail to see what that has to do with it. Somebody who has paid full price (or a silly over the top price, for all that) for a puppy doesn't necessarily give it a better home either. It's not the money that matters. I for one could never, ever imagine charging friends full price. You have to charge strangers because you don't know them yet and if you sold really cheap pups or gave them away for free, there will always be people who got them just to sell on.

Sorry if this response has been read before....

I am in the process of keeping all the bitches I produce - this is a small number in comparison with many breeders - and since they all need a full and complete life, I let them go to friends and like minded people who are willing to health screen their bitch at a time agreed with me whilst living with them as their pets. They are all under a contract and have endorsed registrations.

We have agreed amongst ourselves to breed from the healthiest sister.

I have no interest in making any money from my dogs and am prepared to spend with little return.

This has to be seen in the context of the fact I could triple the price of my pups and still turn down many prospective buyers per month.

> If not what's the reason for giving them away or only asking half price?

I would imagine that this is nobody's business except the breeder and new owner.  But, in my case, I have a wonderful friend who was a super owner to her 3 year old Lab, and could not want better for one of my pups, and I gave her the one she fell in love with :-) 

I've had contact with a lot of breeders over the years and have seen that it is possible to make money on litters if you do everything on the cheap.

If I have a litter I always buy at least 4 new pieces of vetbed and if it's a winter litter my big washing machine and tumble dryer are on the go most days which eats up the electricity. I would hope, after all outgoings, to have enough money to keep, feed, and insure my dogs for at least a year or until the next litter. I might occasionally have enough money left over to treat myself to a new pair of glasses or some other emergency but I don't consider I've ever made a profit on pups, if I had done I wouldn't be driving a car that's 11 years old and I haven't had a holiday for 8 years. Any spare money is ploughed back into keeping my dogs, nothing else.

Talking about expenses......We don't get newspapers delivered here (too far away), don't go to the shops every day normally and when we doshop, often go late in the day so don't buy a paper, we don't know anyone who can save us any, and I currently have 4 toy pups. As they're growing and growing, eating and eating more, pooing more obviously, we're having to drive to the shops to BUY newspapers for the sole purpose of using inside the puppy pen at night! Sometimes we don't even have time to read them first.

we only breed when we want a puppy in our breed 5 to 6 is a big litter singletons are common 3 to 4 are normal, stud fees for a decent dog are the cost of a puppy £600, we do not have any major health issues (cardigans needed eye tests pembrokes do not) puppys sell well as there are only about 350 born a year, but we are very careful with people who want our pups.  i have been in the breed 13 years and have breed 5 litters and only twice we have not kept anything one there was only two pups while they were nice for family pets not for the show ring(to much white on the collar and not enought on a paw) the last to be litter bred all had to be sold due to mums ill health (pupps where seven weeks old when it happened) she spent three months in hospital due to secptecimia (blood poisoning) and lost half of her foot it was in the pups best interests to let them go never mind how hard it was for us and with us that is what it boils down to what is best for the dogs which is why we include in our contract the pup comes back to us if they can no longer keep it for any reason and offer a lifelong after sales help it is all for the puppy, we breed it we are responsible for it for all its life if there is any profit after expenses we use it to show the pup

> I agree the right home is paramount but do you think because someone is given a puppy they will look after it better than if they paid the full price?
>
> If not what's the reason for giving them away or only asking half price?

I don't think that the breeders here that give puppies away, actually advertise them as free. In fact, I doubt they advertise thier litters in the first place. So it's not a case of would-be puppy buyers queing up for a free or cheap puppy, it's a case of very respected breeders, choosing to not charge a person that they see as the right person to home one of thier pups.

I don't think that the breeders here that give puppies away, actually advertise them as free. In fact, I doubt they advertise thier litters in the first place. So it's not a case of would-be puppy buyers queing up for a free or cheap puppy, it's a case of very respected breeders, choosing to not charge a person that they see as the right person to home one of thier pups.

I wasn't thinking they are advertised as free or cheap puppies. I just didn't realise puppies were given away. Now it makes sense that some breeders who do this have a loss on the litters they breed.
I can also see that it very much depends on the breed you have and what costs you take into consideration when breeding as to how much if any profit you make. I don't take anything into consideration other than the cost of breeding the litter i.e. health tests, stud dog, whelping box, extra food e.t.c.....I would keep the dogs and follow my hobbies irrelevant of having litters. So anything that is left over after these costs to me is "profit".

> We don't get newspapers delivered here (too far away), don't go to the shops every day normally and when we doshop, often go late in the day so don't buy a paper, we don't know anyone who can save us any, and I currently have 4 toy pups. As they're growing and growing, eating and eating more, pooing more obviously, we're having to drive to the shops to BUY newspapers for the sole purpose of using inside the puppy pen at night! Sometimes we don't even have time to read them first.

If you have a local freecycle group post a request on there. You will often be inundated with offers of newspaper. Its where I get mine from.

> .Is it common practice to give puppies away to friends?

I always let friends have puppies at less than full price and have given them to people for nothing too and thought this was fairly normal practice, however when I recently had a puppy from a "friend" as a favour as she was having problems selling her only to be asked for the full asking price for the puppy soon afterwards. When I queried it on here I was surprised how many people thought I was wrong to have expected any reduction in price and was told that a lot of breeders will still charge friends full price.

> a lot of breeders will still charge friends full price.

I think the 'full price' thing is confusing in some cases.

For a pet puppy, ie one that is mismarked or has features which render it unsuitable for breeding on with  - would be roughly £750 from one of my litters but for one of the puppies I let go to friends free (for potential future breeding plans) then I could have asked my price...and that could have been pretty 'full'.

For a pet puppy, ie one that is mismarked or has features which render it unsuitable for breeding on with  - would be roughly £750 from one of my litters but for one of the puppies I let go to friends free (for potential future breeding plans) then I could have asked my price...and that could have been pretty 'full'.

Yes, but this surely isn't 'giving the dog away' it's retaining it's a form of 'breeding terms' - you keep it for breeding yet it's in a home environment with a loving home.  This means you can keep more dogs for breeding without actually having large numbers on your premises.  This isn't a criticism, just trying to distinguish between what's basically a 'business' arrangement and what may be seen as 'giving a puppy away' - it's an arrangement which can suit so a good idea for both parties - the family may not be able to afford to buy a dog like this.  However, m -y view of 'giving away' would mean no strings - although it may not involve KC registration being handed over. 

A separate thought is that it's odd that people can see that no 'profit' is made by hobby breeders, yet it's still viewed that breeders should give pups to friends and relatives... that because it's done for the joy of it, that the breeder should be out of pocket and the recipient should have the benefit?  I'm sorry I don't see that as fair unless it's reciprocal.  The only exception would be if the litter was unsold and someone took a pup because of this - I wouldn't expect the full price in this circumstance, although I may ask for a 'token' but would ask that at the time rather than after they'd taken the pup in! 

Words of caution on generally letting people have a pup for less, or 'arrangements' - I've recently let a 'friend' have a puppy for the price of the stud fee - on the basis that she uses my dog with one of her other bitches and I have a puppy from that litter.  Since letting her have the pup she has let me down in a big way and I asked (and was given) the difference in price as I wanted to end our breeding 'partnership' which is a shame as, like having pups out with friends, it's a way of keeping numbers down but still exploring breed lines.  Another friend had a litter for sale and someone wanted a pup - visited several times and fell in love with a pup when my friend actually wanted to keep her.  When it came for the pups to leave home they came and said they'd got to have the pup, that they loved the pup and wanted it so badly but had no money.  Against my friends better judgement this person went away with the pup on condition that she bred a litter with a suitable sire so that my friend could have a pup back and could continue the 'line'.  Time passed.  The dog did agility and was in such 'lean' condition that she never came into season - and no pup and no money was ever given to my friend - who put it all down to 'experience' and had to buy in a bitch.

> I don't take anything into consideration other than the cost of breeding the litter i.e. health tests, stud dog, whelping box, extra food e.t.c.....I would keep the dogs and follow my hobbies irrelevant of having litters. So anything that is left over after these costs to me is "profit".

If that's all I took into consideration (which personally I agree with and is) then I made a huge loss on my last litter (which was my first so first purchase of everything) and will do so again on this one as I also take travel to stud dog into account and travelled to Sweden for that this time.  Also the differences in the 'going rate' stud fees between foreign dogs and dogs in this country is quite large.  Over here in my breed stud fees are very low (not even the price of a puppy for the most part) and puppy fees are lower than most breeds as well.  If I don't take the 'travel' part into account, but still take the stud fees, tests, supplies, etc I 'might' break even on a litter of 7, but I doubt I'd be lucky enough to have more pups than that, and would count myself lucky to even have that many pups (though I'm hoping to for the homes I have lined up)

Thanks lilyowen -never thought of that! Will try Freecycle.

> I would keep the dogs and follow my hobbies irrelevant of having litters.

I think that is fair comment although at the other end of the scale there are those that merely owning, breeding and loving their own dogs is the joy and may not particularly enjoy showing but do so merely to establish a valid opinion on what they are hoping to breed from so, perhaps, for them it should be included in the cost of continuing their lines.

>I think that is fair comment although at the other end of the scale there are those that merely owning, breeding and loving their own dogs is the joy and may not particularly enjoy showing but do so merely to establish a valid opinion on what they are hoping to breed from so, perhaps, for them it should be included in the cost of continuing their lines.

Now don't think I'm being atagonistic but if you go a little further and you don't go as far as showing at all, and only breed litters because you enjoy it, then you surely would make a profit because you don't have the cost of showing? But then I suppose we're back to a hobby breeder in the literal sense of the word.

>only breed litters because you enjoy it

That's the description of a 'backyard breeder'; I think I'm right in saying the thread is about being a reputable breeder and doing things properly. Showing isn't the only way of having your breeding animals independently assessed, but it's one of the easiest.

>That's the description of a 'backyard breeder'; I think I'm right in saying the thread is about being a reputable breeder and doing things properly.

Does that mean that all backyard breeders are not reputable or are the reputable ones in the minority?

> I suppose we're back to a hobby breeder in the literal sense of the word.

Hi Charlie Brown, I don't personally think that anyone breeding a litter with no purpose to improve the breed whether for a competitive discipline or working ability should be classed as a 'hobby breeder' - IMO if there is no benefit to a breed's gene pool and improvement then breeding simply because the owner 'enjoys it' classes them as a back yard breeder ..........

Posting at same time JG but with same opinion!

> Does that mean that all backyard breeders are not reputable or are the reputable ones in the minority

Means they're not contributing to the good of the breed so IMO it isn't reputable - just because someone can do something doesn't mean they should and I would question the motives of any such breeder! 

> I was surprised how many people thought I was wrong to have expected any reduction in price and was told that a lot of breeders will still charge friends full price.

expecting a reduction on price just because of a friendship is not acceptable. however many breeders may offer a slight reduction because of a good friendship.

I would be taken aback if anyone asked me to reduce my price, and it has never happened.

There is a huge difference between expecting and asking for a reduction, than being offered!

> if you go a little further and you don't go as far as showing at all, and only breed litters because you enjoy it, then you surely would make a profit because you don't have the cost of showing?

I agree with the others.  No matter how tedious you might find showing, the queuing to get in, the parking in mud, the searching for a place ringside, the long hot or long cold, wet, windy days, the something important left at home, the coughing up clouds of talc, the ring side moaning, the competitiveness for the sake of it, the judge appearing not to be as astute as you hoped maybe even slightly batty, the trying to drive out of the mud, the queuing to get out of the parking (can you tell I'm not a great fan :)) if you don't do at least the necessary or the equivalent in whatever other field your dogs fall, you really can't say with any confidence you are contributing responsibly.

BYB's to me are those who breed without health testing, use any stud with no thought to compatibility re pedigree, temperament etc and expect to make money out of it.

I haven't shown all my dogs but have had those I intended to breed from evaluated by more than one show/breeder who have been in the breed for decades, they have all been health tested as per breed requirements, pedigrees discussed with others prior to any proposed matings and never been turned down by any outside stud owners who have all been well known show breeders. It was 7yrs of research and gaining knowledge about all aspects of breeding before my first litter was born, well worth the wait.

So I truly hope that due to my not showing all of them I am not classed as a BYB.

Hi Rhodach,

personally I wouild not allow anyone without successful involvement in a competitive or working discipline to use my stud - even with health tests etc - to me breeding is about improving the gene pool and protecting healthy lines of good temperament with quality of type.

May I ask why you breed?

I came to breeding later in life as I am near retirement now, I breed to hopefully produce a pup which will be of quality to show a hobby I could have after finishing work, so far my present show dog won't keep weight on and I have been penalised after he has been on the scales, one judge even stated that he thought I had starved him to keep him under 5kgs ideal weight which really upset me as it was my first show and everyone who had laid hands on him prior to us going in the ring said I was so lucky to produce such a great pup from my first litter.

I have been told he needs to be 4.5kgs for his build but can't get him over 4kgs so was advised to stop showing to avoid getting a reputation for showing an under weight dog. I have done bloods on him, discussed with various food companies and changed foods as well as going raw for a while and still he doesn't gain weight, he is very active so soon burns off any extra calories, vet says he is healthy and usually in a breed who normally struggle to keep their weight down he is unusual.

In some breeds maybe the rules of using a stud are different but in ours which are not produced in huge numbers each year it has been as I have already stated.

Tend to agree with Rodach on her criteria for breeding and views on those considered to be BYB's.

Hi again Rhodach,

thanks for your reply :-)

> I breed to hopefully produce a pup which will be of quality to show

so you do in fact have an aim with your breeding and, as you've shown the dog, are actively seeking to be on the right road.  That was not quite what was conveyed in your earlier post (although I may have misinterpreted it!) and is not then what I would class as backyard breeding :-) 

When I referred to not allowing any stud of mine to be used it is because I would not assist anyone breeding puppies with a goal which was for nothing more than producing for the pet market.  I don't think that view is necessarily breed specific, but a personal one which I know to be the criteria of a lot of stud dog owners.

regards, Teri