The dogs are both staffy's the older female at first with the puppy could be what seems like as aggressive as she was standing over the puppy continually which i presume was just to show she is the top dog however a few times she has got the puppies neck between her front legs lifting him off the ground ad trying to bite his head, which worries me as i want the best for both of them.

Since that i have been doing a little reading and have been making  the female aware  that I'm the alpha by growling a little at her which she rolls over to me to which shows she knows I'm the alpha as she is submissive to me. When the puppy is allowed out of the create i allow her to sniff him, a few times i have stood between them when she gets a bit too rough and starts circling him because that's when she has gotten him between her legs the last few times when i stand between them i do what i have read to and have lent over her slightly with the puppy behind me to reinforce that I'm the alpha and that i accepted him by letting him be behind me, showing her I'm in charged. She has been a lot better with him she sniffs him and follows him but isn't  right in his face and will go off and not continuously be right next to him; I'm glad as she looks more relaxed i praise both of them lots and if i pet him in his cage i make sure i pet her to and talk to her lots. After the puppy has gone to the toilet outside i praise him and give him a treat on on side and exactly the same on the other to the older dog as i don't want her feeling too left out the puppy is in a create so that they can both have their own space.

I have been saying to the older dog whenever she goes near to the puppy gentle she follows him but after a minute or even less she comes back to me and looks to me for praise which I always give to her, i just worry when she starts to circle him so i reinforce the alpha roll and give her a little growl which she responds to by again coming pack to me and i praise her. I know the only way the puppy is going to learn is by when she has had enough is for her to growl at him but am worried she might try and get him between her legs again I've tried finding out about this on the internet but couldn't find anything. When she starts growling sometimes for no reason i just say no sternly so she listens but not shouting and screaming which again she responds to i don't know if this is right of me or not but if i the alpha find something unacceptable like when she circles and tries to get in his face i say no again so she knows not to do it which is always praised when she comes back to me.

i just don't know where to go from here because i feel she is doing really well so do i just continue as we are or not? The situation is I live with my boyfriend and his parents the older dog is actually his parents dog however the alpha rolls has never really been clear and reinforced to her as neither of them were the clear alpha and ever since i have known the older dog and lived with them it  seems like I'm the one she aims to please like when the puppy first arrived she just wanted me to be there and wouldn't listen or respond to anyone else. When I'm not around but the rest of the family is she waits for me still by the dog and sulks if I'm not there like if i go over my mums for the evening or night. Her owners should probably be the Alpha but no matter what she looks to me not to anyone else plus as we are doing so well with the puppy and her maybe we should just continue as we are? all adice welcome.

Has your bitch ever had anything to do with puppies.

She may well be confused (resentful maybe as many dogs don't like change) and not know how to approach this strange beastie properly.

Bit like an elderly maiden Aunt being given a newborn baby to hold or feed.

Do not show any annoyance or growl at your bitch.  She must not get to feel that the puppy is a bad thing. 

If you think she is being too rough (doubtful unless pup cries out, and the odd yip is nothing) then distract her, call her over, ask her to sit or something and give her a treat.

She should know that good things happen when pups around.

Of course as pup takes liberties she will put him in his place, just watch things don't boil over.  Pup should soon work out how far he can go.  Use a baby gate when you cannot directly supervise, to keep pup in one area so she can get away from him, but they can still see each other and lie near each other if they wish.

i just worry when she starts to circle him so i reinforce the alpha roll and give her a little growl

I haven't really got time to write a lot at the moment, hopefully somebody else will come along, but I needed to tell you quickly that you MUST stop treating the bitch the way you are, as you are running a very high risk indeed of making things much worse. You could also end up getting bitten yourself. You've been reading very old, outdated training methods. Humans are never part of dogs' packs, and the alpha roll is very dangerous indeed and is NOT how a good alpha dog or bitch would treat their lower ranking pack members anyway. An alpha seldom uses force of any kind, they use only body language and sound -all they need to do is give a lower ranking dog a look and it will willingly roll over onto its back -it is NEVER forced. Here's just one article on the subject:
http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm

Please please please stop this 'alpha' behaviour.... you'll only make things worse.  Being the alpha is now known to be incorrect and will cause problems.  Yes you need respect from your (their) dog, but not this way please

Ok - you want the dogs to get on, the older one needs to be able to tell the pup off without being too rough, but what's going to happen is first chance she gets when you're not around is to nail it!  Stop the pup annoying the older dog - split them up if they're not coping by distracting the pup and perhaps putting in a play pen.  Gradually allow more contact.  Praise the bitch for good behaviour - and the puppy.  Don't let the pup irritate the older dog or the pup will end up being a brat and the older one will either just shut down or will wait and reinforce her superiority when you're not there.

ok thanks you for the advice its confusing what to listen to and what not to about the alpha thing because some say do to show your in charge but then like yourself some say not to... its who to believe but im going to the vets on friday so will as their advice then but i see what you mean and where your coming from so thank you and i will take it on board :) is it right of us to stop her holding him like that though or should we let her because is that her showing dominance? but then what if she hurts him in process and we do nothing will she think its right to do it again ( i mean holding him in that way)?

You can prove that you're in charge without having to be physically violent about it.

The 'alpha roll' should really be described as the 'submissive roll' because it's something offered willingly by the subordinate animal to the senior one, and not something forced upon the subordinate by the senior. The only time an animal would physacally force another onto its back is to kill it; it's a massive threat which at best will destroy your dog's trust in you and at worst is likely to result in you getting seriously bitten as the dog defends its life.

>is it right of us to stop her holding him like that though or should we let her because is that her showing dominance?

A bitch will 'tick off' an annoying puppy by holding its head in her mouth and softly growling; there is no pain involved. The pup will understand this and will not see it as a danger, and will learn canine good manners.

Make sure the pup doesn't get OTT with the older dog and she won't need to put him in his place - you need to protect her from him, rather than the other way around!

its who to believe but im going to the vets on friday so will as their advice

Vets have NO training in dog training/behaviour.

ok firstly i have never ever been physcally violent to any animal, ive never a finger on her and yes though i see what you mean but she wasnt just holding his head it was his neck and i was worried that this was cutting off his air supply and she can be powerful and maybe she doesnt realise it with such a small animal . Im asking for advice not abuse and not to be told im being physically violent when it simply isnt true. i welcome all advice and will take it on but that doesnt have to say it has to be written as though your having a go at me when i ask for advice. i thought this was meant to be friendly helpful  advice because all i want is what is best for the animals.

>firstly i have never ever been physcally violent to any animal
>however the alpha rolls has never really been clear and reinforced to her

That's good news - you'd be surprised how many people think that forcibly turning their dog over is acceptable. It wasn't clear to me from your earlier posts that you weren't doing it against her will.

>she wasnt just holding his head it was his neck and i was worried that this was cutting off his air supply

Don't worry, it's easy to hold firmly without hurting; just think about when you hold a toddler's hand when you're crossing the road - you hold firmly enough that it can't pull its hand away, but you're not crushing the hand in any way.

Does she usually enjoy the company of other dogs when you're out with her?

ETA: I've just realised that you meant 'Alpha roles' and not 'Alpha rolls'. My mistake, sorry! :-)

> its who to believe but

Have a think about this :

I am 9 & half stone, my dog is 14 stone. I can NOT physically alpha roll him!!! (quite frankly I would be stupid to even try!) However, I am in charge, I have 'earned' my place as his trusted 'leader' through reward-based training.

My little cat is tiny (she weighs about 5lb), she can handle the 14stone dog! She can't physically 'dominate' him, but in her own way she has trained him - she has ignored unwanted behviour from him and 'rewarded' acceptable behaviour from him by interacting with him.

Small dogs can 'be in charge' of larger dogs, cats can 'be in charge of dogs' all without force, people defiantely can train thier dogs without force or bullying :)

I don't know why the bitch is behaving the way she is with the puppy. I have limited experience of staffies, but have noticed thier play style is rather rough & vocal. How does the bitch play with other dogs? Would she usually use her paws a lot and wrestle?

ETA, only just read the reply about no physical stuff being used.

I am sorry you feel like you are being atacked but that is not the case.

All this 'alpha' stuff can be dangerous and you never explained that the only'alpha stuff' you do is vocal. However, if the dog is showing 'submission' to you, it is not a display of her respecting you as her 'leader' it is her showing you you are being harsh. You don't have to be violent or physical to worry a dog, he 'submissiveness' to you is her trying calm you and avoid you escalating the situation inot a fight.

thats ok :) she does everything of her own free will like ive noticed she follows me if im upstairs and if my boyfriend is downstairs and you hear him get the puppy out of the cage she doesnt care and doesnt even move from where she is to go see and that with the doors open so if she wanted to she could go downstairs... and yes i see exactly what you mean about the toddlers hand. On walks she tends to just ignore dogs and continue walking but if she meets another dog she never growls or anything unless they do first. If she is off her lead she doesnt go up to another dog or even when she is on it. it seems like she just wants to continue her walk and its the same if a stranger wants to make a fuss of her but she loves people however when she's on a walk she kinda ignores then and pulls to just keep walking.

Its who to believe

There is only one thing to believe or know........... you are not a dog, your dog knows you are not a dog, therefore why act like a dog? :-D

We can train dogs to be obedient and follow commands by teaching them with praise and reward, a dog will respect someone with a calm, strong demeanor, no dominant or aggressive techniques should be used as already said they can truly backfire.

Give your girl time to get used to the little one, it is extremely rare for an adult dog to hurt a pup, if she really wanted to hurt him she would have done. Picking him up by the scruff is not so unusual, she is possibly being very maternal biting his head? I take it you mean gently play mouthing? Which is nothing to worry about she is bonding with him? But to err on the side of caution not as in thinking he is a tasty bone to chew I hope. :-) Just in case it may be best to distract at these times, always be vigilant but dogs have their own way of communicating with one another she may well give him the odd telling off, growl or snarl but that is how pups learn manners, try not to panic when these things happen, dog talk and body language is completely different to ours.

Just give plenty of space for bitch and pup when needed and they will bond over time.

And remember you are the head of the household and respected owner, not an alpha bitch. :-)

:D thats true i am not. I'm not expecting things to happen quickly i just wanted to know mostly how its best for us to handle things. She didnt pick him up she was standing over him her head over his then closed her front legs around his neck so his head ended up by near to her chest it didnt look like she was gently play mouthing him she was growling but it wasnt like she does when she plays with us it seemed more aggressive. ummm bonding well she is sniffing him lots and his bottom and even when he is in his cage sometimes they kinda like talk through it and bark and she wags her tail continuously :) we make sure they have space thats why we have create for him :)

I have a year old neuter male gsd and 18 week old flat coat pup. When they first met he wasnt impressed growled and told her to go away we had two incidents where he scruffed her because she got too near his dinner bowl ( my fault I didnt realise she could get through the cat flap)
  If you could hear them play now, gsd I  find are very vocal and use their paws alot in fact the best dogs for him to play with are staffs because often they play similar.  They often woof and wag tails playbowing mainly from her and then they mock chew each other. To us humans it sounds terrible but actually he is very gentle with her and patient.
I would guess given time and time away from pup maybe get a baby gate so they can see each other but the older dog can get away from pup they will be fine. I have also taught the leave command if things re getting to exciting and also because we have atoy breed who doesnt like to be in volved with all this paly stuff  

As others have said, forget the alpha stuff but do work on giving both dogs some safe space.  A crate for a puppy is ok but you do want them to interact around the house too

I know from experience that adult males can be very suspicious of puppies, and a bit scared - there's no reason to assume that all females are relaxed around puppies either.  My two male dogs took til the pup was about 12 weeks before they settled back down so you just need to be patient and to give them some space.  I use baby gates to allow the pup to bimble about without tripping up the other dogs.  Pups can inadvertently get into trouble with adults simply by being clumsy or over exuberant and until you are comfortable with your adults responses then it's wise to supervise them at all times and use gates when you can't, or when you feel your girl's levels of patience have been reached!

Make sure that each dog gets some one to one time and be prepared weeks rather than days for things to calm down :)

I've just fell about laughing reading someof these posts. But seriously alpha based theories are soooooo old and outmoded. But the idea of mastifflover (sorry can't quite remember the tag) trying to roll a 14stone dog has me in stitches.That is 1 of many reasons why alpha theory can't work. I had a weimie years ago who I tried rolling when we were following that stuff and that was the day I gave it up. I couldn't hold him down and as a vet nurse I was used to holds etc. Good ole fashioned positive eninforcement worked.

You need to keep the dogs a part and when they see each other try not to give the pup too much attention and positively reward the older dog. You need her to see the pup as really really good to be around, the fabulous high value treats are used when she sees the pup, provided she's not food aggressive of course. It'll come round give it time.As for vets advice,take with a pinch of salt, good vets recognise it's not what they do and delegate to a professional. Others.... well less said the better.And I've worked with lots of vets and seen it all fromthembeating dogs and the good who refer. Use your common sense if it feels wrong don't do it, if it's making it worse,don't do it.