I have a 6 month old "working type" lab. She has a great pedigree with many FTCH and will eventually have all the relevant health tests done. My dad is helping me with the gundog training so she will be worked on shoot days but she will not be doing field trials.

so my question is, would it make me irresponsible to CONSIDER breeding from her in the future (and i know it's a long way off yet) if all her health tests were clear and she turned out to be a good gundog even though she won't be doing any competitive work? My dad doesn't seem to think there would be a problem as she will be working and all perspective puppy buyers would be gamekeepers that would have seen her work.

Hope my post makes sense and ALL opinions welcome, good or bad :)

I wouldn't say that's irresponsible; you're doing the relevant tests, and most good gundogs never do any competitive work at all. If she's got good health and good working ability, and had homes lined up for the pups then no, breeding from her would be a reasonable thing to do, IMO.

Absolutely nothing wrong with CONSIDERING it, and working toward it as a goal.

The actual decision won't be for some time yet so spend the time thinking about it from lots of different angles, learning what you can, hooking up with someone who might provide you with practical support and keep asking questions.

Consideration and time spent spent thinking about it will never be wasted.  If it's not this dog it might be another in future.  Good on you for starting the learning process early :)

my dad's a game keeper and has bred and trained some fantastic dogs in his time so i know i have him as support and he would give me his honest opinion if she was a good worker. He would also be a great mentor IF the time ever came to breed from her. The only thing that puts me off thinking about the breeding side is the fact that labs are such popular dogs and would it be right for me to breed with no hard evidence of her working ability.

You said: My dad is helping me with the gundog training so she will be worked on shoot days but she will not be doing field trials.
She will be working for REAL, your dad as an experienced person will be able to find out if she has what it takes, so to me that sounds ideal. I'd also have thought that it would be easier to sell the pups to people wanting a dog to work practically if the mother is doing it herself -so personally it sounds fine to me although I must add that I have NO experience of working gundogs myself.

If all your girls health tests come back clear and your dad is experienced in his field and knows a good worker can't see why you can't consider breeding from her if you found a male that is health tested clear and also of good working stock and sound temperament.
As that's what most working folk want is dogs from proven working lines and if they've seen both parents working in the field
and they are good workers chances are their offspring will have better working potential.

That said some working types are too much for the 'normal' pet owner so it might not be a good idea homing any pups
from strong working lines/abilities to laid back pet owners who won't give the pups the right stimulation in using their working
abilities and using up that energy..more likely to get them returned as wayward teenagers with behavioural issues..

Not sure o the breeding age that a working bitch would be bred from but in show lines no bitch normally should be bred from until at least 18 months old..So I would have guessed that you would have got to know some of her working potential by then?

Good Luck

That said some working types are too much for the 'normal' pet owner so it might not be a good idea homing any pups
from strong working lines/abilities to laid back pet owners who won't give the pups the right stimulation in using their working
abilities and using up that energy..more likely to get them returned as wayward teenagers with behavioural issues..


Good point and thank you.

I would like to think that all my puppies would go to working homes as there are enough "pet lab" breeders out there and i would like to think that my dogs would be used for what they were bred for. I would also be prepared to take them back and re home any unwanted dogs myself as i would like to know who they were being passed onto. Would i be able to write that up in a contract?

I would also be prepared to take them back and re home any unwanted dogs myself as i would like to know who they were being passed onto. Would i be able to write that up in a contract?

Legally, you cannot DEMAND it, because once sold, the pup is somebody else's property and you have no rights. But I dare say all of us have something in our contracts about rehoming, usually something along the lines of stating the breeder will agree to always have a dog back at any time -just avoiding demands as that would never stand up.

No problem as long as a dog does what it says on the tin (pinched that from Jim on the apprentice :-D) and if other gamekeepers have seen her in practice and rate her as a good bitch, (very important that others rate her) then after health tests and a look at her lines (to make sure there are no hereditary probs lurking) she will be as good to breed from as a dog doing field trails, especially if her potential pups are also going to working homes. :-)

Hi Ally

I think it would be fair to say I have experience with working gundogs.

I would say that there are *many, many* litters of working labradors bred each year.  A quick search on the classifieds online (google The Gundog Club and click on classifieds and do a search for labradors) will show you that there are a billion litters of good working bitches put to FTCh sires.  It is very easy to find a pup from a litter like that and they are readily available.  They are no harder to source than a show-bred litter.

I do know of such litters struggling to find homes, especially in the current economic climate, and it's not realistic to believe that an entire litter of up to 10 pups can be necessarily be placed in working homes.  Quite simply, there won't be 10 people on your shoot who will want a pup at the same time, even if you do manage to home a couple that way.

I would think long and hard about exactly what it is which you are contributing to the breed, through breeding.  In a breed as popular as the labrador, there exist on the show side many ShChs and on the working side many FTChs.  To breed from anything less than the best is for the detriment of the breed - and there are already many people who do exactly that.  If you believe your bitch has something to contribute to the breed, then the only way to prove that is through competing.  Even if field trials are not possible, for some reason, there are working tests (which would be better than nothing) and of course non-competitive things like the Working Gundog Cert.  Just to take that little bit extra effort to 'prove' you have something worth breeding from would help your litter to stand out in the classifieds, if you do decide to breed, and will help you assess your bitch's ability and potential against others, and then make an informed decision about whether to breed or not. 

Unfortunately many people on this forum (as they have stated here) are show folk and there seem to suddenly be 2 different standards manifesting in this thread.  Were you to appear here and to say that you were considering breeding your bitch (of a very popular and over-bred breed) but you weren't going to show her or 'prove' her worth in some way, you would probably have received aghast responses from some folk.  Exactly the same principles apply for gundog work - unless you prove your dog is worthy of being bred from (when the breed is such a popular one), then I think you do need to consider seriously whether it would be for the best of the breed to breed from her.  I don't quite understand how some posters can say such things as:

>she will be as good to breed from as a dog doing field trails, especially if her potential pups are also going to working homes

A dog successfully competing in FTs has proved itself worthy of being bred from because it has the potential to contribute working ability to the breed and to maintain the working characteristics which are so important to preserve because they define the breed. 

Just as a dog which the owner thinks looks good and has never shown would not be (really) an acceptable breeding prospect for most, if a popular breed, so the same thing goes for gundog work and competing.  It takes more than just your own personal opinion of your bitch's working ability to know whether or not she is worth breeding from (after all, no one is really unbiassed). 

There are many reasons why a good shooting dog does not make a FT prospect and should not be bred from.  For eg, especially on informal shoots, it is acceptable for a dog to whine - many labs on shoots whine during drives - and this is not considered so terrible the dog can't return - especially if the dog works well and does a valued job.  On a FT, one whimper and that dog is out.  Because whining is not something acceptable and should not be bred into the gene pool.  That's just ONE example of why a dog which works well on a shoot is NOT 'as good to breed from as a dog doing field trials'.

Whatever you decide though,

Good luck and enjoy her in the meantime.

I agree with rabid to a degree you do have to have an exceptional working bitch to breed better than you can buy in a market flooded with Labradors, saying that the market is mostly flooded with pet bred litters rather than those of good working ability. I have trained working Labs for the past 14 yrs and I do not believe that for one minute than only dogs who have proved themselves in trials should be bred from. One of the picker ups on the shoot I pick up on has many dogs that he trials, and does fairly well, he does have FTW's, it looks stunning to see him with 8 dogs or so all heeling by his side. But I find that these dogs need to much handling, they do not seem to think for themselves. For example last season I backtracked over ground he said was clear with 2 of my labs and picked 5 more birds that would have otherwise been left, this was in heavy cover where I lost sight of the dog and it had to hunt and use its own initiative. On long distance runners his dogs are second to none as they have him directing them and in their sights. Not saying mine can't take runners as I had my bitch on a blind runner last season that I had to get her on to about 600yds away, it was a great feeling and even better when they gun stopped shooting to watch her work! This is my only experience as I do not know any others trial dogs personally but other people I know have said similar things.

The way I see it is that a dog that is a CH in the show ring doesn't always mean it is good enough to breed and the same goes for a working lab, not every FTCH or FTW means it is worthy to breed from. As a handler it is your responsibility to be honest with yourself and admit the faults she has, if she whines on a drive, runs in, is a bad marker, not keen on water,has a bad delivery or any of the many other faults a dog can develop then you must come to terms with the fact that she is not breeding material.

Do not be discouraged, if your bitch turns out to be of excellent working standard and health tests are satisfactory then I see no reason why you should not take a litter from her. :)

It takes more than just your own personal opinion of your bitch's working ability to know whether or not she is worth breeding from (after all, no one is really unbiassed).


thanks for the reply but as stated in my original post it would not be my personal opinion it would be that of my dads. He was a head game keeper for the 35 years and has bred and trained gundogs to very high standards so i think he should know whats a good working dog and whats not. Field trials were held on the shoot which i often watched so know some of the basic requirements.

Labs - thank you for the very helpful reply :)

He was a head game keeper for the 35 years and has bred and trained gundogs to very high standards so i think he should know whats a good working dog and whats not.

Sounds like he will be the best mentor for you and your girl :)

ally - although your dad will be really useful (obviously!) he also is not neutral and unbiassed here, because you're his daughter.  The idea is to get the opinion of someone with no prior relationship to you.  For eg, you say your dad is already saying he doesn't see a problem with it...  That in itself illustrates what I mean - your dog is 6 months old at the moment, there's no way of knowing if she will develop any of the issues a working lab shouldn't have, if she is to be bred from.  Your dad is part of your family and his opinion won't be a neutral and unbiassed assessment of her working abilities.

rabid - my dad isn't saying that i SHOULD breed from her, he is saying that if she turns out to be a great worker he doesn't see the problem. He is very old school and me being his daughter will have no reflect on what he thinks of the dog when she gets older (he's often too straight talking for his own good). I do understand where your coming from though :)

Ok cool - keep assessing her all the time, and ask the opinions of others on your shoots who you trust and respect about her.  And if you can take her along to gundog training, ask the trainer there, and so on... keep asking and use all that info when you make your decision.  Also, remember to have her hip and elbow scored and eyes tested before breeding.  Good luck!

I think you've had some very helpful replies on this thread and well done for coming on here and asking - there are some lovely people here with plenty of knowledge and experience.

I would say your dad sounds like he would be a great mentor and I can't see why he would be biased as others have said.  I don't work my dogs but I do show and have competed in other ways, we also breed and show cats...I and my mum work closely together with the dogs and I know she would always give her honest opinion and wouldn't let me think something was right just because I am her daughter.  The same as I don't believe your dad, being a head gamekeeper would let his daughter breed a mediocre litter of labs as it will still have some reflection on him.

Good on you for following your dads footsteps into a world of working your dogs.

Please can we keep this thread constructive and not hijack it with pops at other members - I've had to edit several posts on this thread which were unnecessary and not at all helpful to the OP. It's fine to disagree politely with other members but it's not fine to suggest they shouldn't be posting at all!

Also, remember to have her hip and elbow scored and eyes tested before breeding.

Also consider, OptiGen DNA for GPRA  http://www.optigen.com/ also testing for CNM http://www.aht.org.uk/genetics_myopathy.html

I would not consider breeding a Labrador now without all of the above, it will be money worth spending :)

thanks labs. Hips, elbows and eyes were the ones i'm having done whether breeding from her or not. Hadn't heard of the other ones so will add them to my list :). Are there any others?

We have working flatcoats and working cockers here, and have had working dogs for over 40 years now.

The only thing that I could add to what has already been said, is that if your bitch turns out as you hope, and you come to choosing a nice stud dog for her, do a lot of homework on  the stud boy.    Not only trials awards or such like, but talk to independent people who have always known the dog

Not a few FTCHs have been made up because their handlers were capable of overcoming problems in that dog.     All dogs have problems at some stage, some lesser, some more than others.       You need to avoid the strong willed dogs who have only achieved awards as the handlers were equally as strong minded as the dogs!!!!

Jo

thanks jo :)

Before I post I would like to say I have no expierience with working labs so may be barking up the wrong tree altogether so please excuse me.

Having a breed that really nowadays does not work for a living my breeding requirements are different but i do like to do some basic obedience and a little carting with my girls to see that they do have some ability to do the job they were bred for. However breed type and temperament are also high on my list of needs like health tests. all to be considered with a planned litter. Surely it is not just working ablility and health checks needed but also temperament and looks must play some part. I understand that someone who wants a good working lab is not so worried about looks but presumably they would want a pup to look like the breed it should be. Just to take working ability into account is to my mind a little shortsighted. A good trainer will get the most out of a bad dog and equally a bad trainer will never make a good dog work well. Should the OP not be taking looks and temp into account as well? I once had a lab years ago who came from a gamekeeper and from great working stock. She was a great family dog and although I never worked her I expect in the right hands she would have been fine. However she could have been any amount of cross bred labs seem around, she would have won no prizes in the show rings and I was often asked what she was crossed with even though she was pure bred (Although not KC Reg). Do the working enthusiasts not worry about looks at all? Is it a not sensible to take this into the equaision or run the risk of loosing the characteristics of the Lab?. :-) (Put the smily in to show I am not preaching but asking you knowledgable folk a genuine question !!!)
For me I would have, at the very least, to run her by someone with knowledge of breed type as well as taking working ability, temperament, health status and also her character into account, after all not every bitch has it in them to be a Mother.
Aileen

the working type labs look different to the show type labs. They are smaller and more stream line. If you put my girl into the show ring with "show" labs the judge would not look twice at her and to some people who have had no experience with the working type, she may look like a cross breed. I do think that many people have working type labs are more interested in having a dog that is good at it's job than looking good (I may be wrong but i'm sure someone will put me right if i am). Temperament should play a huge part in it. You dont want a dog that is too keen to work and will rush in the beating line on a shoot day and flush the birds out too early, but not too laid back that lots of motivation is needed to get the dog to work. Also a timid dog would be no good as they would often be gun shy.

I think the saying 'fit for purpose' is quite a key statement here ! If you look at some show type Labs they could hardly jump over a plank never mind scale a five bar gate with ease as a good working Lab can do.

However there are dual type that can be shown and do well in the ring but can also be excellent workers and for me those are the type of Labs I do like myself.

My rescue girl who is a working type Lab is extremely driven and very agile but would be laughed out of the ring if I had ever thought about showing her poor love  !

I think for working gundogs where showing is not in the scope  then what they look like is not a consideration in a lot of working lines. I also have met a few working Labs ( we have a lot around where I live) and the temperaments are very questionable one of which recently attacked one of my girls just because she looked at him ! Alot of them are also very focused on the handlers which is key for working dogs but in a social environment they have seemed very nervous of being out of their comfort zone ie have not been necessarily socialised as perhaps a pet owner or a show owner may do.
We also got Puds our middle aged girl from a working kennel and there were two litters in a stable block together. She again was a challenge in many ways but is one of the most special girls I have ever owned. She again look wise is not a good example of a Lab but hey ho I didn't get them to be able to show them !

I know for one Kay both very successfully shows and works her girls and boys and they tick all the boxes in many ways (have seen alot of them in the flesh) and Kay has produced some stunning puppies.

I also have met a few working Labs ( we have a lot around where I live) and the temperaments are very questionable one of which recently attacked one of my girls just because she looked at him !

Thats awful, your poor girl. I would NOT expect that from a working Lab as they should be expected to work amongst other dogs with no sign of aggression.

I think the saying 'fit for purpose' is quite a key statement here ! If you look at some show type Labs they could hardly jump over a plank never mind scale a five bar gate with ease as a good working Lab can do.

Totally agree. I was at an Open show a few weeks ago with my Cardi but thought I would take a look at the Lab classes while I was waiting for my class. They were to my eyes, way to fat and would be knackered after one drive let alone 8 or 10! It made me smile when watching Crufts this year and they had the demo of the gundogs and said this is to show they are 'fit for purpose' yet they looked so different from the show Labs it proved nothing!

I do believe however that looks should still come into when breeding working dogs, I have seen some good working dogs in the field that for their ability would consider using at stud or obtaining a pup from but because of their looks have then dismissed as they are many good looking dogs with ability out there to choose from. I feel that many working Labs in recent times appear to be very light in the eye (including top FTCH's) Personally I really dislike a dog with a light eye. So although looks are not AS important as ability I feel in order to breed from a working dog it should have the following...

Ability
Excellent temperament
Good conformation and looks
Satisfactory health tests