I've found myself getting very clinical lately and i need to hear what other breeders/hobbyists think because i'm causing major friction in our home. I'll get into details later but for now can you tell me how seriously you think i should take things considering i live in a country property with a variety of animals (dogs, a cat, chickens, horses), aswell as lots of visiting wildlife and vermin.

?

I'm not entirely sure that I understand your problem - but I've always believed in the old saying "you have to eat a peck of dirt before you die" - and that in order to build up a healthy immune system, one should be exposed to a wide variety of animals/environments.

I agree. I am not too fussed on over cleanliness/germs etc. I have always had a houseful of dogs with the usual dog hair sandwiches etc and I have never been running round with the dettox. My kid have always been exposed to this and never get colds and are in fact are very rarely sick in any form.

I don't like the sterilised world cleaning products would have us live in and I don't think its good for us. Don't live in a pigsty but keep it sensible :)

All these animals come into contact with each others faeces in the fields and the paddock. The cat hunts and eats wild mice, rabbits, and birds but it also spends a lot of time in the house etc. The chickens crap all over the place up at the stables and in the barn....and i sometimes take the dogs up there because its the only place i can let them off leash securely. (think cross contamination)

I plan to have some litters from my dogs over the next few years and so it worries me about the types of bacteria they might be exposed to on this property....and what effect it might have on their pups if i decide to raise them here.
I've become really paranoid about it and no longer allow my dogs to go in the paddock, the fields, or the arena...and our household is pretty much split down the middle now because nobody takes it as seriously as i do.
The other members of our household see all the animals as fun pets and they have a "farmers mentality" towards the keeping of animals (basically meaning they all live like pigs in sh*t.... in my opinion).

Me and the dogs have our own rooms on one side of the house and the dogs all have their own seperate beds and cages that i disinfect religiously every couple of days. The rest of my family live on the other side of the house and i keep them away from the dogs as much as possible (because i dont want any contamination risk from the horses chickens mice and cats etc).

Have i got O.C.D or am i justified in my attitude towards cleanliness?
This is about my dogs, not "me" with a michael jackson complex LOL

It is tricky.  I think we all have to find a balance of reasonable hygiene.  In day to day life sensible precautions around toilet habits (both animal and human :)) and food preparations areas are probably enough to keep all the inhabitants safe.  As far as less domestic animals are concerned it seems to depend on how intensively they are kept. 
Farm animals that are kept in crowded conditions and exposed to much antibiotic use appear to present a much greater risk to humans coming into contact with them but if your farm is of that type I would imagine those managing it will already be well aquainted with the health and safety rules necessary to keep themselves safe.  
The kind of environment you seem to be describing does not seem to me to represent this sort of risk though.

Have i got O.C.D or am i justified in my attitude towards cleanliness?

Let's put it this way.   I am 68 years of age.  For over 35 years, we lived in a rural cottage, surrounded by fields, woods and our drainage was into a cesspit.   We reared 4 children, all of whom are now healthy adults with children of their own.   I have bred some litters of puppies and kittens over the years, and apart from SENSIBLE precautions - such as washing hands before eating, not allowing dogs/cats to lick faces, our children grew up healthily with the children.   I do admit I would freak out about the fact that when we had hens we also had rats - but our little border terrier (who incidentally would sleep with my then-4 year old) swiftly despatched that problem.

Our 10 year old helped with the birthing of goat kids, in their stable, again with no ill-effects.

So in answer to your question, I think that you may possibly have a tendancy towards OCD, and I would not be able to live with your attitude towards cleanliness - I would have a total nervous breakdown!

> So in answer to your question, I think that you may possibly have a tendancy towards OCD

I think you are right.  I wish I had not fed into those fears a little in my post now :D

Is it to do with being house proud too?  I don't have a breed that slobbers but have been in a friends house with her boxers and her 'interesting wall art' and it drives her familiy mad from the point of view of visitors to the house not the bacteria!  If you or your family are walking around the farm surely your feet, trousers etc are contaminated?  I wonder is there really too much hype and advertising of household cleaning products nowadays, there seems to be a cleaner or every possible germ or presceived threat, it just preys on our fear of dirt! 

This is definitely not about being house proud, its just about the possible spread of bacteria between different species of animals that all live in, and around, the same property.
I've owned dogs for over 20 years and have never worried about this before, but since deciding to hobbyist breed, and moving to a home where the dogs don't have their own private garden that no other animals come into....i've started to worry......a lot.

Country life is definitely not as good as its cracked upto be and i can't wait to get back to the real world :)

>Have i got O.C.D or am i justified in my attitude towards cleanliness?

To be honest it seems a bit OTT to me. I've lived with dogs in the house for over 50 years and none of us have ever caught any illness from them (mixing with my schoolfriends was another matter!). And none of the animals - as well as dogs we've have cats, fancy mice, guinea pigs, hamsters and chickens - and none of them have caught diseases off each other; the occasional fleas and worms were easily dealt with. Litters of puppies have come into this regime and again have never been ill.

The dogs' bedding gets hoovered every week and the plastic beds washed down every month or so when I get around to washing the bedding as well.

I personally think you're taking things a bit far.

> Me and the dogs have our own rooms on one side of the house and the dogs all have their own seperate beds and cages that i disinfect religiously every couple of days. The rest of my family live on the other side of the house and i keep them away from the dogs as much as possible (because i dont want any contamination risk from the horses chickens mice and cats etc).
>
> Have i got O.C.D or am i justified in my attitude towards cleanliness?
>

I live in a similar situation to yourself.  I am surround by 5 farms, sheep, deer, cattle, chickens, mice, foxes, bagders and although I have never seen one, no doubt the odd rat or two.   My dogs have no restrictions on where they go, and would create holly hell if not allowed into the paddock or fields. 

I am very particular about cleanliness, and have a very strict routine for my chores.. simply because they are done every day, it becomes a ritual more than a routine. But, if I am showing, or have an appt. that means my routine is interupted, then tough, it waits until the following day when I start the same routine again..  I only do this because I have so many dogs, and keeping the area clean and non smelling is more important that actually worrying about bacteria and cross contamination..

my dogs sleep with the cats, the cats catch mice (and occassionally bring them home for the dogs :-O )  they cross paths with foxes and badgers.. and the sheep can be found roaming my garden because of a broken fence in the adjoining spinney. 

Its what living is all about... being obsessive, can be destructive.. simply washing your hands and making sure food hygene is maintained, then I don't see much of a problem..

Bedding is washed as and when I think it needs, could be every day in the winter, but once a week in the summer.. and I pour a little Zoflora into the conditioner.  not only for disinfectant reasons, it just helps it smell fresher for a few extra days :-)

Exposure to a little bacteria can help build up an immunity.  :-)

I think to get to the crux of the matter...new puppies then if your dogs have access to all these places they will build up a healthy immunity and this will be passed on to the pups. Different thing if they were being introduced to germs from somewhere else. (Visitors to new pups are a bigger threat really and thats when extra care is needed with washing hands and changing shoes.) We all (Including animals) learn to live with our own areas bugs and germs. I personally would expect your pups to have good immunity to lots of things that in a germ free environment they would be in danger from.
My motto....My home is clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy.
Relax a little and let nature do what she is best at by giving your dogs access to lots of everyday germs they will have good immunity.
Aileen

I have helped a friend (translation) with an infection control course with her job.

Bacteria are generally not a  not a problem in their proper places.  Our skin is covered it it with no harm(where it causes problems is if ti gets to areas it doesn't belong (so into cuts wounds or ingestion).

Therefore we can carry on merrily swimming around in the bacteria soup if we wash our hands, keep wounds/cuts clean and do not eat contaminated/undercooked food.

The rest is mostly aesthetic, other than cleaning up animal/human waste fro our living areas.

As for house proudness,w ith my breed it is hair in everything.

I have bred pups since kids were toddler, I am sure they did not wash their hands every time they petted the dogs or pups, though I was always thorough with worming.

Horror of horrors I allow the dogs to pre-wash pots and pans before they go int the dishwasher.

My dogs are part of my family and I don't view them as any more germ ridden than my human family.

Any pups you breed will have resistance to all their Mum is regularly exposed to, so in fact you need to be less OCD to keep them healthier, and allow them to come into contact with low levels of germs etc so they can build a strong immune system.

Lol, I let the dogs 'pre-wash' pots and pans too

> The dogs' bedding gets hoovered every week and the plastic beds washed down every month or so when I get around to washing the bedding as well.

> I personally think you're taking things a bit far

I agree :)

The only time I use disinfectant is when cleaning the toilet or mopping up after someone/dog has been sick etc. I don't use any of these anti-bacterial cleaners because it is the overuse of them (plus too many ABs) that has caused the high resistance of some bacteria to ABs. All the family have been very healthy (of my two children, by the time they left home only my son had ever had ABs - once, my daughter - never)

As JG, the dogs' bedding gets washed when I remember or they are looking a bit muddy :) :) :)

As Margot says - you have to eat a peck of dirt ........ :)

> My home is clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy

I like this :) :)

Crikey, if you think it's cleaner/more healthy in suburbia you're wrong! I'd much rather have 'country dirt' than skirt round some of the c**p you find in some towns. As a kid at infants school I was bullied by a girl in the junior school who made me eat mud, lo & behold I'm still here & I also survived being round lots of dogs/pups, a pony who will come in the kitchen if the door is open and for years we and the dogs were drinking milk straight from our goats. it's all about balance and I try to keep the kitchen surfaces clean & all crockery goes in the dishwasher on a hot wash, usually the dog bowls are in there too (shock horror, don't tell the in-laws) if there's a bit of dust around I'm past obsessing about it, it'll still be here when I'm gone. If you build up a healthy immune system you shouldn't worry too much, especially if it's beyond your control.

Lets face it - dogs often eat other animals faeces, and their own.  They lick their own bottoms, wash their mucky paws, roll in cow manure, wear fox poo as perfume and then if you're really lucky they come and wipe their faces on you and kiss you for good luck.  Anyone seriously obsessed with hygiene and cleanliness wouldn't get within 10 yards of a pet dog.

That said, it is important to take basic precautions around dogs and other pets but I suspect most of us do that without thinking.   Where it becomes a problem is over use of bleach type products and cleaning rituals that you cannot, ever, miss.

As a puppy buyer I'd be pleased to see adult dogs living in close proximity to farm animals, and other household pets, and to have puppies raised in such an environment.  I'd be very alarmed to discover that some people in your household were not allowed contact with the dogs and I might assume it's because your dogs have not been socialised.  However, even if I knew that it was done for reasons of hygiene it would still ring alarm bells as I think your pups might well miss out on some lovely opportunities afforded by such an environment.

> Where it becomes a problem is over use of bleach type products and cleaning rituals that you cannot, ever, miss.

Overuse of disinfectants and bleaches can cause serious problems for septic tanks too :)

Remember back in the 1950s I moved from the London area to the Manchester area and was surprised to find children sitting on the kerbs eating jam butties, yes, the gutter where we, in those day, got our dogs to "go". Were these children sick and unhealthy, or were the adults who have behaved in a similar manner, no they were probably fitter than you and I who now have running water and wash every hour think they had a wipe over at bed time if lucky.

It was normal when I was a child to Bath once a week. 

In the summer though we ran around the garden with minimal clothing so the kids did get dipped into shallow bath (all three of my brothers together) before bed time.

I shared the bath with my brother (21 months younger) until I was probably 10 (I was a slow developer).

My father tells me when he was a child in post war Poland eh couldn't wait until summer to be allowed to go barefoot like most of his playmates who only wore shoes in cold or wet weather (his uncle was a cobbler so he had leather shoes, his friends were lucky to have cloth ones).

My Father is now 77, looks and acts up to 15 years younger, has a wife 30 years his junior and 8 children ranging from 22 to 53.

The sort of area I was talking of was a collection of 8 or 10 houses that shared a yard with one or two cold taps and about 4 WC all the homes shared this. The wife would get water from the outside tap and if they had a fire warm it for her husband to use in the kitchen sink, yes, the same one she prepared the veg in, and he would wash the work day grime off before the evening meal, on Sundays he had a shave.

Only you will know if this is really getting of hand and interferring with your life. Although it is difficult to really get a handle on someones life from a short description I am abit worried that could have started off as sensible seems to be a little ott if it means you and your dogs are separate from you family to control the amount of bacteria that you percieve is around by cross contamination.
Certainly if you are having a litter I can see that an increase in care is needed but in everyday life if you need to cut yourself or your dogs off and it is becoming a family issue maybe you may need to think carefully about how this is affecting you and your family and has it got out of hand.
I do hope I havent offended you in any way as I said I am taking my interpretation from your post and it could be wrong. I am also no medic lol
Can i exchange my suburbs for your country life please ? :)

I'm probably a little OCDish myself. :-D

I like tidy and clean and everything in it's place, I wouldn't allow dirty boots in the house etc and would certainly be washing clothes after use, what happens outside is fine children and dogs can wallow in cow muck if they like but nothing comes into the house. There is no way I could have a dirty house. When it comes to bacteria and germs normal cleanliness will take care of it immune systems as already said build up with exposure to everyday germs etc, your adult dogs are fine to walk through the paddocks and fields and mix with the other animals, so deep breathe and clam down about that. :-)

However, when it comes to puppies I would feel like yourself and not want exposure to other animal faeces, I would certainly dictate everyone had to be disinfected prior to coming near my puppies, no dirty clothes or footwear from mixing with other animals, immune system or not I also would not like it and am very protective of puppies, I secure a large part of the garden just for the pups and dam to have no way would they be running around where other animals are, until they were over 12-13 weeks with all inoculations out of the way, after that I honestly wouldn't care anywhere near as much, free to explore etc.

So although I'm with you on the puppies care, with yourself right now, I think what has happened is what happens with many things, when we live with people who think differently all the little things build up to be big things, suddenly it is all we can focus on, like the wife who gets pee'd off because the husband leaves the seat up or doesn't put the lid on the toothpaste, they go from tiny irritations to all out war and irrationally filling up their thoughts far too much, you are living with people who are not as clean as you and so their way of life is becoming unbearable to you and is now an obsession.

You'll not catch anything from them, so try to get those thoughts from your mind, but by all means you don't have to live the same way if you like clean and tidy then you live that way, just try hard not to see them as walking bacteria, you and your dogs can handle anything they throw your way. :-)

GOod post carrington. Its just very hard when they want to live their way and you need to liive your way and house not big enoiugh to do your thing sounds like op has that option

>Horror of horrors I allow the dogs to pre-wash pots and pans before they go int the dishwasher

Sorry to hijack the post but Barbara has just made me recall something that happened with my very first Bearded Collie pup.  And it made me smile.  :-)

I worked with a lady who was most definitely not an animal person (I'm sure that she was sick to death of my main topic of conversation.)

I was telling her about my scrambled eggs being left too long in the pan, and I just ate the top layer that hadn't been burned.  So I put the saucepan on the floor in the kitchen.  I was relaying how much I laughed when the pup picked up the saucepan by the handle, lifted her head really high, and carried the pan into the living room, and took it up onto the settee.

Can you imagine my face when the workmate asked "Weren't you worried that she might lick it?"   She couldn't understand why I had tears running down my face, and I couldn't answer her for laughing!  :-)

LOL - reminds me of giving one of my GSDs a pan that had Yorkshire pudding stuck in the corners - she got it off a treat but I did not take it quick enough and she ate the corner of the tin as well.

It is so reassuring to learn that others do these things with their pets behind closed doors. Yes mine do the prewash cycle. My answer to anyone who comments is oh the dishwasher washes at such high temperatures it kills everything

I have a friend who lives in Australia, she breeds dogs rather successfully.

As well as all the other organisms that we have to deal with she has snakes, spiders and all manner of creatures out to kill or damage.

Perspective is what is required or you will start to delve into facts like a large proportion of your mass ( and that of your dogs  too) is made up of bacteria, without which, we would cease to exist. You would have no digestive system, your respiratory tract would fail and you would suffocate under a sea of skin flakes.

We either deal with these facts or get medication to help with our anxieties :-)

> You would have no digestive system

Apparently (according to my OH :) ) - all the probiotics that are around at the moment came from, originally, the faeces of an American GI. His gut had withstood all the rigours of living in Iraq (or some battlezone - I forget where) without him being ill and so they took his gut bacteria (from his faeces) and started the first batch of probiotics from that :) :)

The Russians have been working, for many years, on treatments derived from faeces - or the virus and bactreial species they contain -  called Phage therapy..... overview here

Yes, i do think you are being quite OTT about things. Have your dogs normally been family dogs and living amongst the family until you started feeling this way? If so, i think it totally unfair to deprive both the dogs and the rest of your family from interacting together purely because of fear of bacteria!

My dogs come back with rabbits/mice/rats etc, they also come into contact with chickens and geese and eat fox and badger faeces! They are all perfectly fine...i also have young children whom the dogs live with day to day, they are not kept seperate, the only thing i do is ensure my children wash their hands regularly.

I am going to (hopefully if she ever comes into season!) be breeding a litter soon, i wont be stopping my dogs normal walks/behaviours (apart from not letting the bitch catch and eat her own dinner or eat faeces) I plan to wipe the other dogs down as they come into the house when i have pups on the ground, but other than that it is business as usual.

You have to remember, dogs are dogs and kids are kids, they both pick up dirt and bacteria on a daily basis, your kids probably pick up more bacteria from school than out and about playing or from the dogs.

I really do think you should either address the situation/problem or go to someone that can help if you are unable to, this is really unhealthy IMO.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20927962.600-faecal-transplant-eases-symptoms-of-parkinsons.html
Here's a link to a fascinating (and revolting!) new development in the treatment of Parkinson's Disease :-D    Puts Poo into a new perspective :)

>Anyone seriously obsessed with hygiene and cleanliness wouldn't get within 10 yards of a pet dog.

Totally agree, in fact we got a Bedlington pup back in 2000 because we were worried that because of the problems our DS had as a Prem baby, and still has, we were being too obsessive about germs and hygiene and he wouldn't have the opportunity to build up a healthy immunity.   Seems to have worked, despite his problems he is remarkably healthy.  Normal hygiene and no disinfectants except for the Mistral used on our small patio and yard to stop smells from the dog wees.  I also use it in a spray for cleaning the toilet.

Reading your description of your separate family living arrangements and your reasons for this I do think you are OTT, and maybe on the way to OCD.   Once your worries/obsession starts affecting the way you live and the lives of your family then it's time to get help ;)    Luckily help is available should you decide it's appropriate.

Strangely there has just been a programme on the TV suggesting scientific evidence for what I have long believed that our increasing suffering from allergies ect is in direct relation to the amount of hygiene we practice.