Hi
New to the site so bare with me.
My CKCS is a little girl of 6yrs old. She was born with a heart murmer and about 6wks ago was diagnosed with epilepsy. She is on medication twice a day. Overnight she has changed from a playful happy little dog into a dog that you would think was 66, I cant get her to go for a walk, she is unsteady on her feet, she sleeps all day, never plays now, gaining weight through lack of excercise and the medication. She used to jump up on the chairs and on our bed, now we have to lift her.
I was wonderring if anyone has experienced this.
Bron

I have a 6 year old Long Coat Chihuahua that started having seizures in October of last year.  They were mild at first, but I decided to have her spayed, and she had her all clear check up, and 3 days later had a massive fit.

When she had a very bad fit in March, she started medication.  I had her blood tested afte 6 weeks, as recommended, and they upped her dose.  She had already started to gain weight from the spay, so her food was reduced.  As she is on phenobarb, it obviously slows her down, so that added weight gain has slowed her down considerably.  I too need to lift her up on the settee now.  I am just glad that we have gone 12 weeks without a fit now, and she has been for a slow amble on the beach today.

I guess that your girl is due her blood test about now, so you will be able to discuss your concerns with your vet.  She will need to be tested on a regular basis, to ensure that her dose is right.

Up to now she has had two blood tests and her medication doubled, she takes 30mg Epiphen twice daily and was taking 15mg phenobarb twice daily. The vet thought it might be the phenobarb that was slowing her up so he changed that one to 325mg Libromide 1/2 tab twice daily.
Its been such a worry as she was always eager to go for walks and now she wont go past the front gate. And she always played during the day and was always waiting at the window for my husband to come home to play. She doesnt do any of these things now, its just like having a very old dog in the house.
I was that upset yesturday that this morning I have ring the vet for an early appt, we are not supposed to take her back for another week, so I will see what they say.

It seems a very large dose to me for such a small dog -half of what my 30 kg Golden Retriever was getting. How frequent were her fits? Did the vet actually see any of them? Just wondering because my previous Cavalier who had a really bad heart would have epilepsy like episodes every month or so, but it wasn't epilepsy, it was related to his heart, so he was only on heart medication and never epilepsy medication. (He lived until 15.) Also of course in cavaliers you can also have episodic falling which could be mistaken for epilepsy.

My Golden was rather like what you describe, for an entire year after he first started on medication. It took until then before his body seemed to get used to it, then he changed and became more his usual self -but he still could not go for long walks as he'd get too tired. He was even younger, must have been about 3 when it started.

Just a very quick reply as I'm at work, I shall give a more detailed one later! Just four points, 1 this is not an out of the normal dosage, I have a bitch with aggressive epilepsy the same size as a cavalier (10kg) on double this dose, she is at the higher end of her ranges but without the high dosage she fits every 10 days.
2 It can take up to 8 weeks for you dog to get used to her drugs.  When they are first given you will often find your dog will be extremely drowsey, unstable on their feet, not want to play, distant, cries alot.  THIS DOES PASS, it is hard, BUT IT DOES PASS, you will get your dog back.
3 You are not alone, this is a terrible disease, for the owners, but there is a great website that offers fantastic advice, support and tips. I have learnt to deal with severe epilepsy very effectively through this website, I shall post the link when I'm home.
4 Every case is different and so what works for one dog rarely works for another.  After advice from the above website I switched from a proplan to fish4dogs as it is a grain free food.  Before she would never go more than 3.5wks between fits, since the switch the shortest time between fits has been 8.5weeks and growing! A miricle in my world.
Oh, and on all this medication, and my heart break at watching full on aggressive fits and clusters I have the happiest, healthiest (excluding her head!), most playful and life loving little dog you could ever wish to see.

I have a bitch with aggressive epilepsy the same size as a cavalier (10kg)

Unless a badly bred (BYB) Cavalier, this sounds bigger than most Cavaliers, especially as the OP's was a bitch. My adult Cavalier dog weighs 6 kgs. :) My previous dogs both weighed 8 and the bitches 6.

I still think episodic falling is a very valid point.

I'm not saying the cavalier would be 10kg exactly, I was giving the weight of my dog on medication as i felt she was a better example than previously offered! But I do have a (well bred and show winning) cavalier at home and the height difference between the two dogs is under an inch.  I really dont think the dosage is excessive as my dog, only slightly larger than a cavalier as opposed to I think the previous example was a goldie is on 60mg epiphen a day and 365mg of bromide split in 2 twice a day.

Episodic falling is a valid point, but if my vet didn't get detailed descriptions of the fits (which I had to give in unbelievable detail) I would not be going back to that vet in a million years!  Episodic falling would rightly scare an owner who did not know of such things, but this vet was presented with a dog with a known and medicated heart murmur.

Unfortunately I have been unfortunate in my time, and I have also had a cavalier with epilepsy, he was on 45mg epiphen twice daily.

Isn't epilepsy in CKCS connected with Syringomyelia [sp]?

Here is the link to the canine epilepsy forum http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/ I found it absolutely invaluable.  I absolutely value champ dogs and the wealth of knowledge, but for what I was dealing with I for once found a chink in the knowledge.  Several users had experience with epileptic dogs, but not to the extremes that I was experiencing.  I hope your little girl will be one of the normal dogs that finds her range and quite happily goes on with her life with the occassional fit.
I had a horror story which I wont go into as your little girl doesnt seem to be experiencing any of the issues we had, from what you have said so far she appears to just be sedated as her body is getting used to the drugs.  You said she was diagnosed 6 weeks ago, the effects of this first influx of drugs may only just be disappearing, and the dosage has increased so I'm afraid you have to start again from that date. If she is still down 6 weeks from that date then I would talk to your vet, but until then there isn't much that can be done.  But it does get better :)

Episodic falling would rightly scare an owner who did not know of such things, but this vet was presented with a dog with a known and medicated heart murmur.

Don't see your point?

The vets and researchers I have worked with regarding epilesy on both a personal and breed level have always been of the strong opinion that epilepsy should only be medicated only if grand mals are presented in cycles of less than 28 days, or if clusters are presented.  Petit mals although upsetting to those watching are not medicated.  For this cav to be medicated I am asuming that she has presented a minimum of two grand mals.  It is petit mals that may very easily be misdiagnosed as epilepsy, but this dog is now medicated.  If that makes my point any clearer?

However there maybe 2 trails of thought on when medication should be given and I haven't come across the second!

>However there maybe 2 trails of thought on when medication should be given and I haven't come across the second!

I have, and my own, vey experienced veterinarian does not follow your way of thinking.  TBH

I'm going by discussions with vets, vetinary researchers, and even homeopathic vets from the research I am involved in organising in the University of Cambridge Vetinary College and another research University in Finland.

Honestly peole are getting more hostile on here, one reason I never bother posting unless the topic is a little more obscure and I have experience in the matter.  The poor orginal poster was worried as her dog was acting in a sedated manner after being diagnosed with epilepsy and being placed onto medication.  This is an extremely common side affect, one owners are often never warned about, and one that passes.  I was only trying to reassure.  The first time I experienced EP I wasn't warned and was distraught to find myself with a dog who could not even stand.  It passed, and I had a normal dog afterwards.

As I have said unfortunately I have been forced to deal with this disease, and being in the position where I can help organise genetic research I have come across dozens of owners with epi dogs.  None have been medicated before reaching a frequency of 2 grand mals in under 28 days.  I am not saying I agree with that, if I was ever presented with a seizure in a future dog I owned I would be demanding medication from day one, but I am not a vet and that does not appear to be how they work. I was merely trying to comfort the OP that this is a passing stage, her meds dont sound out of the ordinary to me, and she will get her baby back.

I ahve known of a dog that had  had a funny turn put on phenobarb. 

When the owners moved and had a new Vet who couldn't understand from history why she was on it on such flimsy evidence. 

The vet took the dog off as wasn't happy with the side effects and the dog has never shown any tendency to fit in years.

>Honestly peole are getting more hostile on here

   

Well, after that comment I have re-read all the way through this thread.  Nowhere can I find hostility!  People in forums are always going to have differing experiences, and debating these is what it's all about.  Nothing offensive has been posted at all.

There's lots of great advice here, particularly about feeding, the canine epilepsy website and also about finding a vet who is very experienced about epilepsy. You might be lucky but most vets are not as experienced as you'd like and often go heavy handed with the medication or are not willing to seek expert advice. If your vet is not very clear on advising you exactly what they are doing and the outcomes they expect and clearly advising you on other steps to support the diminishment of symptoms then you should challenge your vet as to their experience. Every dog is different and there are lots of things that both you and your vet could/should be doing to help your dog. What panel of blood tests did your vet order BEFORE medication started? What advice as to feeding and behaviour management have you been advised on? All of this, plus medication when appropriate, can help a dog live a very happy and fulfilled life once you have got things settled and any medication is settled. Although this stage may take a while, for most dogs that time does come. The website referred to is very helpful for presenting the condition in both its bare bones and in supporting you to rationalise the condition.

Ther's a book by John Fisher called 'Why does my dog...' which has a quick section looking at providing a stress free environment for your dog. I tried it and it has done wonders for my bitch's stress level. Haven't had a fit in over 4 months (touch wood!). We have also changed to a grain free diet about a year ago. Although still regularly getting fits they have become less intense and the post ictal stage for the last one was minimal. Management as well as medication is important. Another good book for ensuring a stress free relationship with your dog is a book called 'Calming Signals' by someone whose name I can't remember - a Finnish woman I think.

For this cav to be medicated I am asuming that she has presented a minimum of two grand mals.  It is petit mals that may very easily be misdiagnosed as epilepsy, but this dog is now medicated.  If that makes my point any clearer?

No I still don't get at all what the dog seeing the vet for MVD has to do with it.  Let's face it, how many vets will get to see a fit happen? Not many, unless the owner has filmed it. It isn't easy to 100 % accurately describe something so that it is fully understood by somebody else that haven't seen it, so there is nothing to say the vet can be certain of what symptoms there are.

Another good book for ensuring a stress free relationship with your dog is a book called 'Calming Signals' by someone whose name I can't remember - a Finnish woman I think.

Turid Rugaas -and she's Norwegian. :)

Replying to myself here LOL re. people describing symptoms to the vet. Just one example of how owners can get it wrong; There's been many an instance where a worried owner has called the vet about a cat  saying it's broken its legs and/or back, because it's crawling on the floor screaming in great pain, not using its legs to walk in the normal way. Such people couldn't tell the difference between pain and wanting to mate, and this is what I mean -Joe Bloggs dog owner may not be able to tell the difference and accurately describe it, between a petit mal, a grand mal, an episode of episodic falling etc. And some vets don't listen and just assume.