Had a disagreement with hubby again regarding me and the dog. He's been reading a book by Colonel Conrad Most re. training gsd as guard dogs or something - he got it from library and its about fift years old - took library months to find it in their vaults or whereever they keep little read books.(he got it because he has a gsd,but our pet dog is a puppy doberman)(he is not training a guard dog - just for interest)

Any way, this book talks about anthropromophism (think spelt correct) and he says I am anthropromorphic with our dog.

He said I treat it like a human and not a dog like I should.

Has anyone else heard of this term?

Yes, I have. It means to attribute human standards etc to animals, gods and so on.

Taylor

Yep ;) :P :D
Think of Disney films and how animals are portrayed just like humans as "Fox and the Hound" "Lady and the Tramp" etc...
Of course there are different degrees of Anthropromorphism.
Just like there are those who viewa dog only as a "dumb beast" (Mute, not stupid) and only programable in the pack sense or extreme authority, which that author is likely to have followed ;) :)
toodles

So is anthropromorphism good or bad ?
Some dogs are humanlike anyway in the way they act ?
Lel

Hi Lel,

if you just view a dog/animal as humanlike it its antics then there is nothing bad in that. But to treat an animal like a human, well, that's where the problem starts.

Taylor

Taylor,
you must agree some animals are NICER than some humans .
:)
Lel

That's why I live alone with 20 plus dogs, Lel :D.

Taylor

Smile :)

It tends to be considered a negative aspect.
For instance (a common one), you return home to find your young dog has peed on the carpet. You sternly tell your dog to "come here" and then you point to the spot. You don't have to say anymore because your dog is obviously cowering and knows why you're upset.
Your reasoning is that he 'knows' what he's done and is feeling 'guilty' about what he's done wrong... Well, those are human emotions put onto the dog's actions. (anthropromorphism)

He's actually picking up your anger and reacting to you, not the spot on the floor. He doesn't know why you're upset, just that you act nicer when he learns to grovel a little. He can beg and get back into your good graces. Your mood improves... So he's learned how to act from your emotions.
Unfortunately, this will all happen again, because...... he's a dog and you as the human is misreading him.

On the positive side of Anthro..., when you're playing around with you and a ball, you can recognize that he's having 'fun' and "enjoying' the moment.
True behavioralists (the scientific and dog pack order kind) have difficulty admitting that animals play just for fun.
They like to try to place all sorts of "animal behavoral" excuses such as learning to hunt, mate, etc... but they don't want to believe that dogs have a sense of humour. Which if you live with one for a while, have to admit that it's a real possibility :) :D :D hth :)
toodles

Toodles have you been reading about this?as I wouldbe interested to know what you have read or found as I am guilty of doing things the human way.

Pam

Hi Pam,
I haven't been doing any formal sense of study, if that's what you mean. It's just something that I've noticed along the way how society and pet owners view their dogs. When it gets really out of hand, I get a bit disgusted--at both sides of the spectrum.

A couple of years ago, I had to put down Elizabeth Marshall Thomas' book "Hidden lives of dogs" because of the sheer schmaltz and ridiculous conclusions.
She was letting her dogs roam through the streets of Boston to 'see' how they interacted with traffic. What good dog owner would ever do a thing like that?????
Her concept of the beta dog (if I remember correctly) peeing first in the morning and the rest of her dog pack lining up afterwards was something along the lines of 'building a consensus' on who was to be in charge. I didn't last more than a couple of chapters just out of annoyance.

There was one author (I'm sorry I can't remember) who wrote a book as a backlash against all of those like Thomas and weeping elephants etc..basically the severe anthropromorphic trend in books. Unfortunately, he was so detailed oriented and dry in his arguments, that he also lost me, despite the fact I could agree with some of his views. If you're interested in that one, I'll dig up the title ;) :)

I don't go for the Chicken Soup for the Soul series of heartwarming stories theory of animals, but yet, I don't go completely on the other side that states life is solely a state of programed responses against a given set of variables :rolleyes:

To me, animals are smarter than given credit for, but not as intelligent as to be human with a consistent ability to have abstract thought.
When a dog notifies a human that there is smoke in the house, he is being confused and going to the 'boss' out of worry. Something is not "normal"...not trying to act heroic to save the family.

You can expand their horizons by giving them lots of experiences that will condition them to constantly think and learn. Just like humans, there is an apex of learning that if not used by a certain age, it will slowly degrade.
But you Can teach old dogs new tricks, if you never stopped teaching them from puppyhood.
Oooh, for 'not much' I sure went long winded on that'un ;) :D
Sorry :)

Sara,

I would be interested in the book if you can think of the title/author.

Don't go to great lengths and at your leisure, with an exam on Monaday and quickly apporaching I know what books I "should" be reading :-)

Thanks BFN

Pam

Hi Pam,
While searching around, I found
[link http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/158542093X/qid=1041849063/sr=1-112/ref=sr_1_112/002-4143906-2248017?v=glance&s=books] Beauty in the Beast [/link] basically dealing with the 'proof of 'virtue' in animals. Now if that's not an abstract human concept creating anthropomorphism, I don't know what is :rolleyes: It's not to say that these stories aren't wonderful and 'heartwarming'.. but they really don't 'prove' anything.
I even saw a book on "Animal fathers and relating in the wild to their babies" Huh? :rolleyes: The one good thing about romanticizing the wild is that people are less likely to allow wanton destruction to go on in the name of 'progress' and 'civilization'. Watch what happens if Bush goes after Alaska again to have a new oil site put in the reserve areas..

Now this is funny [link http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966952103/qid=1041849486/sr=1-216/ref=sr_1_216/002-4143906-2248017?v=glance&s=books] The Art and Science of Piddling [/link] :D :D :D

I saw this book a couple of years ago...fascinating: [link http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1566396565/qid=1041849694/sr=1-281/ref=sr_1_281/002-4143906-2248017?v=glance&s=books] Images of Animals: Anthropomorphism and Animal Mind [/link]

Aha!!! found it! [link http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805056696/qid=1041849890/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/002-4143906-2248017?v=glance&s=books] Wild Minds [/link]
I agree with the last comment on the page....interesting subject, but poorly written. His editor fell down on the job!! Or perhaps s/he managed to make it more coherent than his original scribbles. I don't know. It's out of print at Amazon, but I'm sure that libraries, AmazonUK site, or other bookshops should have it.

Don't forget to study what you have to for your coursework ;) :)
regards,
toodles

Thanks Sara,

At work so will get a good read later.

Funnily enough my exam on Monday is Human development/creativity under HR stuff. Oh the joy.

Thanks again.

Pam

Ooooh, profs are always impressed when you mention animal behavior vs. human ;) If it's essay, you can always do some occasional lateral similarities :) :)
I won't mention how many papers I wrote using dog training and owner attitudes as a topic. Hey, it was great for writer's block and maintaining a sense of passion within the dull dry essays. :D :D
good luck and don't slack off ;)

Dogs sure do have a sense of humour. I wish I had a videotape of one particular event with my late Yorkie, Moxie. I clipped Moxie's hair myself. She absolutely hated any kind of grooming. One day my husband asked me to cut his hair, since he had postponed going to the barbershop for too long.

I sat hubby in the kitchen on a stool and set about cutting his hair, hubby grumbling away about by technique. Moxie walked into the room and looked at my husband. She sat down directly in front of him to watch with the biggest grin on her face I'd ever seen. She was clearly amused that hubby had to put up with the same "torture" as she did.

I suppose those people that do not believe people have a sense of humour don't believe dogs can smile either, but I swear Moxie would have provided the proof that they do on that day.

Stacey

Another 'grinning' Yorkie!!!! :D :D :D
Pepper did that too...and yes, it was an emotional response in my humble opinon ;) :) I've run across quite a few dogs with that 'talent'...and it's definitely a happy reaction, just like wagging the tail in greeting. She'd "smile" when we'd come home, when we met up with friends, and after I woke her up by blowing gently on her... (she went deaf by about age 11 and it was less startling than shaking or touching her awake).

Anthropomorphism is good in that you consider dogs (and other animals) to be sentient beings who suffer just as we humans do. A century or so ago, it was accepted practice to ignore animal screams when they were experimented upon as you would a squeaking gate - it what happens, and means nothing. NOW WE KNOW DIFFERENT.

Animals ARE sentient being just as are humans, and so should be treated accordingly. They can suffer physical pain AND emotional pain just as people can.

Knowing that, how you treat them depends on an individual's humanity.

Think this is where we run into no end of problems with extreme animal rights movements, who don't have the experience nor correct emotions when directed towards animals. And of course, those who allow their pets to become gross through over-indugence in treats - an obvious example of anthropomorphism.

I used this word accusing myself of this (though I must admit I wasn't too sure of the spelling!) when we were talking about re-homing oldies when their 'breeding life' was over. I said that they were my family in a way now the boys are married and gone away, so could never part with them. Having said that, they're still treated very much as dogs should be (I hope).

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

i suspect Konrad Most would think the majority of us are anthropomorphic with our dogs today If it is "Training Dogs" then it was originally written in 1910, and these were the days when dogs were either very definitely pet or working, and very little scope for anything in between. If a dog bit once it was pts, often with a bullet, and no questions asked.

I think we have to respect that biologically dogs are animals with certain requirements and needs. I do dislike some of the grosser aspects of dog ownership such as are sometimes seen in say, the US, where they have designer coats and little bootees - even have dog perfume. that is to me trying to turn the dog into a substitute child or human, and I would call that anthropomorphic.

I do believe dogs have the ability to feel a wide range of emotions, and as dog owners we have all witnessed say, depression, fear, exhilaration, etc. I swear my dog has a sense of humour too :) ;).

Totally agree with what Sara has said about the owner coming home and reading "Guilt" when in fact the dog is just reacting to the owner's attitude and body language, or even the time of day. We cannot afford to be anthropomorphic in this area or we are being very unfair if we are.

If anyone reading this is interested in this aspect, a good place to start is to get hold of John Fishers "Why does my Dog...?" as it explains these sort of situations and why dogs tend to act guilty.

Agree dogs are sentient and must be treated as such. I once read an appalling account of cruelty in a Jilly Cooper dog book, where a science student experimented onhis living dog. He didn't believe she could feel anything.

And yes at the other end are people who would rather let dogs run in the road than put a lead on, because a lead is "cruel". I have a dead relation who did this, I think it was my great aunt, and her dog kept racing into the butchers to nick sausages!!!!! He often got a knife thrown at him apparently, and never got caught, but one day died after being hit by a car :(

We do have a responsibility to our dogs to keep them safe in our world and in society.

lindsay

The trouble starts when people try to put human emotions onto their animals... they don't understand that other (ie non human)animals do NOT have the same thought process/logic/emotions etc as humans. This is where all the animal rights extremists trip up! read roger scrutons excellent work to clarify!!!

Hi Sam,
I liken it to the 'typical' guy who sees red, dark blue, or yellow...when a woman will declare the same colors as Burnt Sienna, Navy Blue, and goldenrod....
Sure, animals have basic emotions...especially as in comfort, not comfort zone... but I can't believe they have as many shades of grey as us humans do... Of course, brain size and longevity do play a part in how abstract the possiblities can be for memory and recall.

Does an elephant mother feel grief over her offsprings' death? Well, there's certainly a sense of loss there. Those large brains have lots of shared memories. So what exactly would this be considered in human emotions? I really don't know nor can say.
I know that Chienne and Samm were confused about where Pepper was for about a week after she was PTS. I think it's more of the pack being incomplete than a realization that she'd never come home.
I think they missed her presence, but didn't go so far as to feel "sad" about her not ever returning. I know they were upset that I was crying...but they didn't know the reason and I think they thought I was upset at them--so they'd do anything to get me in a good humour again. Chienne even going so far as to become a lap puppy for a while :)
jmho,
toodles

;)

Well I spend all my day talking to Molly about anything and everything one day she will talk back to me :rolleyes: !!

Julieann

So do I Julieann and she listens to every word I say :D
Gina

I've mentioned Konrad Most on here several times in the past. For those of you who have never heard of him, during the war he trained dogs for the German Army. After the war he continued in dogs, training for the "New" sport of Obedience, using the knowledge gained training army dogs. His books on obedience training were the definitive works for so many years.

Anyone going onto the Obedience web site ObedienceUK will find a dedication to this great man! We may have moved on from his methods but he was the person who, more than anyone else started us thinking about training.

Regards, John

Tongue in cheek perhaps, but my Cavaliers ARE little people and are MUCh nicer than some human people.