Hi All

I am posting on here for a friend of mine, she had a little westie pup that she had to hand back last week because of health problems and she has spoken to a westie show breeder that has offered her a 10wk old boy puppy that she has decided to let go, he hasn't had any vacs yet and the breeder said he hasn't had any housetraining as he is in a puppyrun in her utility room my friend was a bit concerned as to how well a 10 week old will settle compared to a 8wk old, i didn't think it would be a problem but then i have always had an 8 wk old pup so thought it best to put it on here.
She crated her other pup at night and when she was out and this puppy now hasn't been in a crate so not sure how well he will adjust from going from a puppy run into a crate, also will having his jabs later and then being able to go out later have any affect on his socialisation period? I can take my dog robbie round to play with him so he will see another dog but i know its not the same as going out and getting used to noises at a young age.
I said to her that some breeders won't let pups go at 8 wks and that they do run them on to 10 wks but i think after the upset with the other 1 she is just very weary now.

If older dogs die not settle well then rehoming centres would be defunct! ;)

No reason you cannot carry a WHWT pup about to habituate it or wheel it round in a trolley etc.

FWIW my dogs go on the ground at 7 weeks and my last one did not have his first jab until 9 weeks old as I refuse to jab them when they are stressed and rehoming IS stressful.

Housetraning at 10 weeks is not going to be materially different than at 8 weeks and crate training the same.

I agree I have had dogs at 12 weeks different breeds and no problems. Same with crate training . As far as socialisation goes take pupop out and about I use a baby sling the type that goes across your body like an arm sling and my breeds are big dogs compared to a westie . 10 weeks would not worry me at all . So sorry about the other pup hopey the breeder will beable to help him and your has a better experience this time

Bramble was 10 weeks when we got her and I think Teasel was too. Never had any problems with either of them settling. Bramble in particular is very aware of doggy manners and I'm sure it was because she was with her mum. granny and two sisters for that wee bit longer. It's a lot easier to carry a 10 week old Westie around than a 10 week old Bernese :-D

Hamish, it does depend on what socialisation the breeder has been providing for the pup, in the interim.  For example, a good breeder who has been taking a puppy out and about and socialising it, it would be a safer bet to take on a 10 wk old pup from, than from a breeder who has just had the pup living in that puppy run.

From what you say, I'd be very cautious because this pup hasn't had either jabs yet.  A reputable breeder would have begun the vaccination course and may even have finished it at 10 wks.  In addition the pup hasn't been introduced to a crate either.  A really good breeder will introduce pups to the crate, will start them off on the concept of toileting in a specific place, and will provide socialisation - and will do this more so, when the pup is left behind after 8 wks. 

There are several things you say which would make me cautious about this breeder, and the need for a 'good' breeder is even more important, the older the pup is, when rehomed.

> A really good breeder will introduce pups to the crate,

Interesting, really good breeders in my opinion don't use cages and don't recommend their puppy buyers cage their dogs either.

> really good breeders in my opinion don't use cages and don't recommend their puppy buyers cage their dogs either.

That's a bit sweeping isn't it ?? :) :) Surely 'good' crating in the right circumstances is no problem and just as much a matter of personal choice along with things like raw feeding. I can't imagine how I would cope with another puppy in my new house without careful use of a crate. Tara chewed everything - the door frame was chewed just in the few minutes while I went to the loo. Perhaps it would be better NOT to have another puppy then as I can't imagine my OH wanting all our hard work ruined :)

Had yours had their vacs started when you got them, from what i have read on other posts it seems that good breeders would start the vacs off this breeder seems very good and well known on the show circuit and i wouldn't have classed them as a bad breeder by any means!!!

My pups are in a puppy pen during the day when not being supervised and running around the lounge/diner and mum sleeps with them at night in a large crate, when they reach 6 weeks mum has had enough and I start them sleeping just on their own without her.

At 7 weeks they start sleeping in a plastic carrier on their own but still able to see each other, first night is usually rough but they soon settle down and queue up at bedtime for a tasty treat and be bedded down, I take them for a wee during the night when they wake up.

I would be wary of getting an older pup if the breeder had done no sort of training with it. Has your friend got lots of time to work harder on an older pup?

I certainly do NOT want my breeders to inoculate my dog prior to me taking it home (unless it was say 12 weeks or more) as it generally means my vet will insist on giving it 1 and 2 again unless the pup comes with a card with its jab on it and both vets use the same vaccines and thus the same protocols.

Whether or not a breeder vaccinates puppies before they leave is, IMHO, not an indicator of the breeder's worth!

> That's a bit sweeping isn't it ??

Yes, you're right it was badly worded. However I still don't agree with rabid. I know many excellent breeders none of whom cage their dogs, just like I know many excellent dog owners who don't use cages.

The main worry I would have about buying this pup is that the breeder hasn't done any toilet training with it!  Even if the pup were 8 weeks I'd think twice.

All mine have left home with toilet training already started and the owners have all reported that they were amazed at how quickly the pups were clean. 

It starts right in the whelping box, having a different surface for the pups to toilet on so they don't soil their bed and making sure any mess/liquid is cleared as soon as possible, then when they are out of the nest continuing this in addition to giving them the chance to toilet outside every time they've been asleep or eaten etc.   Toilet training is surely part of what a good breeder should be doing - especially with a small litter such as a Westie, I would imagine it's a lot harder to achieve with a large litter of pups.

This puppy is my own breed,and I do not think your friend need worry,he will be fine,if he is a typical westie, bold and gregarious he will very quickly settle in his new environment.He will need a place to feel safe, in a kennel,dog bed or travelcrate but provided he can be confined to a safe area,like a kitchen with a gate or doorboard when left unsupervised,he will not need a crate.These dog crates are a relatively new idea,no doubt for the benefit of busy owners,but in my fifty odd years with westies,I have never felt the need to put one in a cage,they are not wild animals,but highly intelligent,sensative little creatures,very quick to learn house training and manners.Your friend should get a vet check and first vaccine asap,then spend the time until the second jab,bonding with her baby,making lots of trips to the garden for toilet training,getting used to collar and lead,etc. No need to carry him out and about,he will have enough new experiences to cope with at home ,like all the usual domestic noises,phonebells ,door bells etc and all the new smells ,then when his innoculations are finished ,carry him out,and very quickly he will wriggle to be put down,and rearing to go exploring the world,doing his terrier thing.Hope she has a very long and happy time with her new family member.

The point isn't just 'is the puppy used to a crate or not', it's a whole host of things, from toilet training being begun, socialisation being well underway, handling by a variety of people regularly etc.  In my eyes, beginning crate training is just part of that. You might disagree with crate training, but that doesn't detract from my main point, which is that there's a lot of stuff I'd expect a breeder to have done by 10 wks before I'd consider it being an acceptable risk to take a puppy on at that age.

As for the vaccination issue, if I were homing a pup at 7 or 8 wks, no I wouldn't want any jabs done.  But, at 10 wks, I'd ideally hope that the pup had had both jabs - the first at 7/8 wks and the 2nd at 10 wks.  It would then be ready to be socialised from the get-go.  If this couldn't happen, I would still want the puppy to have had the 1st jab because I know my vet can get in any brand of vaccine I request, and will match whatever brand the breeder's vet has used, for the 2nd jab.  Even if this weren't the case, I'd be quite prepared to phone around vets and find one which used the same brand as the breeder. 

Puppies in the US and Canada routinely have 3 rounds of vaccinations and increasingly this is being recommended in the UK by some vaccine manufacturers, who worry that maternal antibodies might interfere with the final jab.  I don't think it's necessary or ideal to have 3 vaccinations, by any means, but it isn't a disaster.  I've had many puppies come to class who have had to have 3 jabs in total, because the breeder gave the first one.  So far, none of them have had any adverse effects.

Both of mine had just had their first vaccination when we got them at 10 weeks. I don't think it is really surprising that this one hasn't had any yet as they would only be just ready to start them and if the breeder thought the pup was going then may have thought the new owners vet would be better to do all the initial vaccinations. I don't think any of ours have had their first vaccinations before 9 weeks and then the second at 12 weeks usually (but it's been a wee while.)

Having gone back and read some of the other posts I think people are expecting far too much from a breeder. To expect a puppy to be practically toilet trained at 10 weeks is just like these misguided mum's who used to say their babies were potty trained at 9 months - it just doesn't happen! We are talking about a baby puppy here - no one should expect a puppy to be house trained by the breeder before it is even 3 months old - that's all part of the fun ( ;-) )of having a puppy.

I would be concerned about socialisation if a puppy had been locked in a kennel away from the house but if it has been indoors with normal household things going on then that is plenty learning to be going on with. Puppies learn so much just by being with adult dogs, listening to household noises etc.

If a potential puppy owner asks me will pup be house-trained the answer will of course be 'no'. 

That does not mean the pups have not begun to be clean etc, this means that no young puppy can be deemed to be house-trained, it isn't physically possible, if by house-trained you mean reliably hold on until able to go outside to eliminate.

A puppy doesn't have full bladder control until it is around 5 months old.

From 3 weeks they will have been moving away from their beds to be clean, from 4 weeks they will e going outside, and by 5 weeks will if at all possible be doing all their solid toilets outdoors out of choice.  By 8 weeks as long as the back door is open they will rarely toilet in the kitchen.

I now consider my puppy at almost 5 months old to be 'house-trained' as I can go out and return to no accidents (more than I can say on a wet day with her 13 3/4 year old great great grandma).

I too do not use crates (too restrictive) to shut pups/dogs in, I do use pens and they will have experienced a crate with door open, but personally they are not something I use at home very often, they are used in the car, at unbenched shows or if away from home, and very occasionally to shut a dog in for a few minutes, that is slow to eat (not had one of those for a while).

Agree completely Barbara - I was editing my post as you posted ;-)

I wouldn't worry over much about the age, 10 weeks will be fine if she decides this is the pup for her.  Do just suggest she ask plenty of questions to satisfy herself this is the right dog for her situation, and the right breeder

Incidentally why is this pup still available?  10 weeks doesn't seem quite the right age to be a 'run-on' (almost not old enough for a breeder to have ruled him out completely, unless there is something glaringly obvious now which wasn't two or three weeks ago).  If the issues are health or conformation then she needs the breeder to be very clear with her.  Of course he might just be the last to sell, as it isn't always easy to find the right homes...  Has the breeder kept a puppy?

Either way, if she is happy with her choice of pup and breeder then the age shouldn't be an obstacle as long as she can put a bit of extra effort in to get the pup out and about.

gwen was eleven weeks,when i had her,and ive never had an easier pup!

Barbara,

You put that so much better than I did :)

I didn't mean to give the impression that my pups were already house-trained when they left - of course they weren't, they were far too young.   But they were well on the way to it in the manner Barbara described.

it generally means my vet will insist on giving it 1 and 2 again

i agree, having to have jabs redone is not a good idea and i thought mums immunity lasts for about 10/12 weeks anyway?
my litter were pretty much housetrained when they left at 8 weeks. they would all wake up, run outside from their pen and poo and pee as soon as they got outside. this was repeated obv every 2/3 hours. mine were clean indoors from about 6 weeks

The breeder has got 3 pups in the litter and is keeping a boy and a girl but the boy she has offered me friend has got a slight bend in his tail at the top so she won't be able to show him, she noticed this at 7 weeks old, she offered him to her at 8 weeks old but said none of her pups leave her till 10 weeks of age and the breeder has had family staying so its been awkward to arrange collection as its a 4hr drive for her anyway and she needs to arrange a time when her hubby can travel up with her so it looks like pup may be 11 wks old when she gets him now, which she isn't over keen on as he is 10 weeks old this friday coming and the breeder is busy until next week for collection so things not really going to plan there at the moment.

Tell her not to worry - even at 11 weeks it will be fine.

I agree, although this will of course cause an argument, but I've had pups at anywhere between 6 weeks and 11 months old and with the exception of one that I got at 6 weeks (current Mr Beastly) they've all been fabulous, well adjusted dogs with no hangs ups whatsoever :-)

Thanks for that the thing she is more worried about is that his vacs haven't been started and by the time she gets him at 11wks he is gonna be later at going out after having his course of vacs and that means the socialisation period will be later.
I don't think the breeder has been doing much with him as like i said before it sounds like he is in a puppy pen in her utility room so no housetraining would have been started either, and of course he won't be used to a crate which she will be sleeping him in at night and when she isn't around during the day

to be honest I doubt the pup would be full time in puppy pen when we have such nice weather, he will be spending time outside in the day (probably in another larger pen for safety as such small pups can squeeze through the smallest gaps.

A pup used to a pen will be fine in a crate, only difference is smaller size.

As for delaying socialisation, with such a small breed it doesn't really apply as eh can be carried easily even as an adult, and even at three months should not actually be walking outside the home for more than 15 minutes total, so practising lead walking at home ans carrying elsewhere, he won't miss anything more than the feel of pavement on his feet.

I wouldn't be taking a puppy even much older to areas of higher risk disease wise (parks with lots of loose dogs) and tend to do the initial dog socialisation with dogs whose health and vaccination status I am sure of (which you can do from the start).

As for house-training it is advisable to contain a puppy anyway.  None of mine have free run of the house beyond the tiled kitchen until over 6 months when 'true' house-training is established (behaviour and physical ability).  The biggest reason for delay in house-training is too much initial freedom around the house.

Hamish - I totally agree with your reasoning and the way you're seeing the situation.  There are plenty of excellent breeders to choose from, who let pups go at 7/8 wks (of the breed you're talking about) and provide much more by way of socialisation and early habit-forming experiences (of which toilet training is one).  I think you're right to be cautious, especially when there are plenty more fish in the sea and the person concerned is not interested in showing.

Probably a bit of a moot point at this stage but this thread interested me :-)

I see no issues whatsoever in a puppy being 10 or 12 weeks (or more) if raised in a family home and used to the hustle, bustle and everyday sounds, surfaces, scents, textures, comings and goings, visitors plus outside space etc. Many toy breeds for example routinely remain with their breeders until 12 weeks.

If I was buying in a puppy from elsewhere I certainly would not want the breeder to vaccinate for me - my own pups have their first vac at minimum of 10 weeks, I believe 8 weeks to be far too young for their delicate immune systems and they have maternal anti-bodies to protect them at that stage anyway.   I give second vac around 12+ weeks although have pups out in my arms, in the car, visiting friends, retail parks, garden centres etc and allowed on the ground in non-doggy areas as soon as possible.

From my first litter I had a bitch puppy run on until 12 weeks with another one while deciding which would be exported to the US - both girls got the same socialisation as the puppy I was keeping for myself and their vaccinations/micro chips at the same time.  Basic toilet training was done with equal effort for all three although it was VERY hard work and of course not quite as easy to guarantee success (mine) with three of them bouncing around at different times LOL.

None were crate trained, all were used to a large puppy pen o/n with a bedding area and a waterproofed surface for emergencies plus I regularly took them out to relieve themselves mid-sleep (mine again) although all were familiar with car cages when taken out for various journeys separately as well as together

The bitch that went to the US at 12 wks arrived from a 10 hour flight plus a couple of hours going through customs ect in a completely clean and dry travel crate :-)  The remaining bitch puppy who was then to be found a forever home stayed with us for a further week and went to her new home with a confident and independent attitude, settling easily and happily into her new environment.

My point being that we should encourage an open mind relating to the age of a puppy which is still with its breeder - there are a multitue of perfectly acceptable reasons for it being the case that the puppy has not yet been placed in the perfect home :-)