I'm trying to determine if Panacur treats lungworm, but I'm a bit confused because there appear to be 'different' lungworms involved...

For eg, Panacur says that it can be used "For the control of lungworm Oslerus (Filaroides) osleri in dogs administer 1 ml per 2 kg bodyweight daily for 7 consecutive days (= 50 mg fenbendazole/kg bodyweight daily for 7 days)."  (See http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/MSD_Animal_Health/Panacur_Small_Animal_10_ACU-_Oral_Suspension/-29773.html  )

But 'Oslerus (Filaroides)' does not appear to be the lungworm which most vets are concerned about, nor the one which Advocate treats against - that is 'Angiostrongylus vasorum'.  (See http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Bayer_plc/Advocate_Spot-on_Solution/-38247.html )

I'd rather avoid using a spot-on treatment on my dogs unless I absolutely have to (since it does affect the environment and put people into contact with pesticides), so I would much rather use an oral form of treatment/prevention than a spot-on.  However, I'm concerned that Panacur doesn't address the lungworm I've heard is most prevalent in the UK, which is Angiostrongylus vasorum, since it is not mentioned on their data sheets.

Does anyone have any help on this one?

Just done some Googling - try searching for: Angiostrongylus vasorum +fenbendazole

Fenbendazole is the active ingredient in Panacur, and there are quite a few results which indicate it is effective, though less information on the treatment protocol required.

The data sheet on French Heartworm from Bayer is helpful:
http://www.animalhealth.bayerhealthcare.com/4910.0.html
quote: "A recently published efficacy study showed an efficacy of 85.2% for Advocate and 91.3% for fenbendazole, with no statistically significant difference between them."

That's great, thanks a lot.  My dogs are on day 1 of a 7 day Panacur course today.

I wonder why Panacur doesn't say that it is effective against Angiostrongylus vasorum though?

My understanding of how this lungworm thing works is that, like heartworm and gastrointestinal worming, any worming meds kill off immature stages of the lungworm.  But I don't want to give my dogs a 7 day long Panacur treatment every month...  Should I just treat with a 7 day course every now and then, say every 6 months??  Will that be frequent enough?

I also have checked out Milbemax, but the advice given on the Milbemax sheet is:  "For Angiostrongylus vasorum infections, milbemycin oxime should be given four times at weekly intervals. It is recommended, where concomitant treatment against cestodes is indicated, to treat once with the product and continue with the monovalent product containing milbemycin oxime alone, for the remaining three weekly treatments."  (See http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Novartis_Animal_Health_UK_Ltd/Milbemax_chewable_tablets_for_small_dogs_and_puppies___Milbemax_chewable_tablets_for_dogs/-44250.html )

If I understand that right, it is saying that Milbemax is 2 drugs - milbemycin oxime and praziquantel.  And, for Angiostrongylus vasorum, only milbemycin oxime is needed.  So you should treat once with Milbemax, the first week, and then 3 weeks of just milbemycin oxime.  But I can't find just milbemycin oxime available in the UK!  Plus Milbemax is prescription only....  Sigh...  Nothing is easy, is it?

Dont know if this is of any help but bayer have told me that the only licensed product against lungworm (by that i assumed that we were talking about the one most commonly found) is advantage. Others may be able to treat but  do not have alicense which says they prevent
To be honest I am confused, my vet suggesed monthly drontal which in his experience would prevent although not licenced as such. I am also trying to avoid spot ons

Drontal for sure doesn't work.  The only products available in the UK which work (to any degree) are Advocate (not Advantage, which is different), Milbemax, and Panacur. 

sorry I meant advocate, funny about the drontal isnt it. No wonder I am confused you go to the vet and it gets worse :)

> Dont know if this is of any help but bayer have told me that the only licensed product against lungworm (by that i assumed that we were talking about the one most commonly found) is advocate.

Yet if you read the Bayer link above, it also mentions Fenbendazole (Panacur) is effective, against the heartworm we're talking about (Angiostrongylus vasorum).

hold on are we talking lung worm or heart worm ? the one I thought most vets are talking about is lungworm sorry not sure about the latin name the other one is heart worm and for the talk I went to recently by a vet his practice didnt seem to think it was necessary in uk to worry too much about that one. He recommende advocate spot on ( Iknow we are looking for an alternative)

According to http://www.lungworm.co.uk/scripts/pages/en/home.php
Angiostrongylus vasorum also known as "French Heartworm" (as it was first identified in France) is the one which causes lungworm in dogs.

Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angiostrongylus_vasorum
Angiostrongylus vasorum, also known as French heartworm, is a species of parasitic nematode in the family Metastrongylidae. It causes the disease canine angiostrongylosis in dogs.....The natural intermediate hosts of Angiostrongylus vasorum are land slugs, land snails and freshwater snails.[3] Angiostrongylus vasorum shows little host specificity in its intermediate host.[4].....The native area (enzootic) of Angiostrongylus vasorum is Western Europe (United Kingdom, Ireland, France, Spain).

Thank you MsT that straightens that out but what to use ??If the vets are confused where do we go next

Fenbendazole treats many types of worms in many species so the paperwork with ti just lists the most relevant ones to that species depending on what packaging it is sold for (sheep, cattle, horse dog cat etc).  I suppose that form of lung-worm was not common when they did the inserts.

Zuma has had lungworm - mild - I picked it up early. My Vets own dog has had it and she suggested the same routine she uses for prevention - Advocate - every 6-8 weeks and drontal tablets every 3-4 months spaced between the advocate as Advocate doesn't do roundworms.
Chris

and tape worm :) which one does that. Ireally dont think I have my dogs properly covered at all

Advocate for Lungworm, but it does not do tapeworm.

I just would rather not use Advocate if I can help it...

Partly because, in the summer, I use Advantix for ticks, and I don't want to be using 2 different spot-ons at once even if separated by 2 weeks.  Also spot-ons are dangerous to aquatic life and fish, bees, and lots of 'good' insects and also they are strong pesticides which are then being rubbed on everything in the family home.  I also find that they irritate my dogs, who will itch and shake their necks for a week or so after application.  (Perhaps this is just the product drying, but it still irritates them.)  Besides which, Advocate is prescription-only, and although I know I can get a prescription from my vet and then buy it online, that seems like a pain in the bum - and it's still v expensive, even when bought from the cheaper online places.  That's my (comprehensive!) list of reasons. 

So I'd really like to find a non-spot-on way forwards for preventing lungworm.  I'm happy to use Panacur if it works, but I'm wondering how often people treat preventatively with it?  Is a couple of times a year ok? 

I wish a company would come out with something which can be given monthly, orally, as a one-off dose.  That would be great.  I've been snooping around and I think Interceptor (which is available in the US as a heartworm med) would do the trick - why can't someone license something like that here, so we give a monthly preventative orally, just as they do for heartworm in the US:  http://heartgardfordogs.com/novartis-interceptor/

This page says:  "INTERCEPTOR is stated for the reduction of heartworm (Dirofilaria immitis) disease and the control of roundworms (Toxascaris leonina, Toxocara canis), hookworms (Ancylostoma caninum) together with whipworms (Trichuris vulpis) in canines.

In certain European countries more indications for nematodes along with mites are generally on the market:

Nematodes: Crenosoma vulpis, Angiostrongylus vasorum"
Mites: Pneumonyssoides caninum, Demodex canis, Sarcoptes"

So, essentially, in the US there are products we could be giving monthly and orally and as one-off doses.  I wish they were available here...  The active ingredient in Interceptor is milbemycin oxime, which is also in Milbemax.  (Milbemax also has praziquantel in it.)  Perhaps we should be worming monthly with Milbemax (if we don't have a collie breed) then??

PS Just to say, this article is really good:  http://www.fecava.org/files/ejcap/341.pdf

One interesting point it makes is that, from infection to the time when symptoms start, is usually around 40-49 days.  So I'm not sure what the point is of treating with Panacur a couple of times a year...  That's not frequent enough to stop infection from progressing.  Isn't it a better idea to watch out for any symptoms and then treat with Panacur? 

I agree rabid I am really not keen on spot ons have also come across a small handful of people whhoi have problems with limps on the sit eo the spot oin. and being a fcr is one of dogs and they are prone to lumps I dont want to risk it. I presume that what the bayer man was saying that the only only to prevent is advocat means that the others can only be used to treat there fore no point in using.and maybe its monthly you would need to go with panacur Oh dear back to square one

Sorry, I should have put tapeworm not round worm, doing 3 things at once and got it wrong

Rabid, thank you for that link. It has helped to understand Pierre's death, a little. Pierre was 14 months old, no clinical signs beforehand, alive in the morning but dead by afternoon. Took him at 8.30 am cos he was trembling and wouldn't eat, was given AB'S and told to come back if he were worried. Back at vets by 1, had an x-ray which showed a mass in his lung, put him on IV fluid as he hadn't drunk at all. The vet was ringing trying to get a place at the hospital, thinking he had pneumonia - no spaces - eventually our out of hours said they'd take him as referral so we wouldn't have to wait til 7. By the time we got there,He had bleeding from the nose. Within 1 hour the vet was suggesting we put our baby to sleep, he was bleeding from the gums and lungs and told us we were only seeing the blood that was coming out and not the internal bleeding - Pierre's oxygen saturation was down so low, he was drowning in his own blood.

We had missed 1 months Advocate! boy the guilt! such an unecessary death we'd caused - if only we'd given him the treatment. We were told, the dogs most likely to survive, were older or ones who showed signs of coughing or exercise intolerance etc.
Needless to say, we worm EVERY single month without fail, with Advocate!!!!!!! We hate the stuff - its so strong, can be smelt for days in their poo, wee, breath and coat - but we have to do it. We use milbemax for tapeworm. .

Our vet has recently said, for prevention, use Advocate, but for treatment he would use a longer course of Panacur. If you live in a lungworm area - and those areas are spreading! - or if you have foxes, frogs, an abundance of slugs and snails in the garden - you must use Advocate monthy! And don't leave toys in the garden and watch your grass eating dogs!

FF, don't know if it helps, but I vary the application site slightly,  each time and also dose in 2 places instead of concentrating it all in one area each month.

So sad killerchick and I can understand how you blame yourselves. Thank you i I am considering what to do for the best lots of good info here

Oh no that is awful, poor Pierre.  It's amazing you were treating with Advocate and just missed one month, it's not like you weren't treating at all :(  I have never given lungworm a thought until my older dog was a bit off colour recently and I began to look into it.

Reading that link and the symptoms (including the details of what was found, post mortem) really makes you realise how serious this lungworm thing can be.

Some of the stuff I'm reading seems to imply that when it hits younger dogs, it is really severe and they tend to be the ones admitted at a point where they're too far gone for help.  The older dogs seem to be the ones who get the wheezing or the coughing, before it's too serious, and so they get caught in time.  The link suggested this was because puppies are more likely to put all kinds of things in their mouths and contract it in the first place.  Perhaps worm monthly with Advocate till a dog is 2 yrs old, if you live in a hotspot?

Also, I'm wondering whether it would work to worm monthly with Milbemax instead of the Advocate spot-on, and whether that would have the same effect??  I know that Advocate works against the immature forms of the worm, but might not work against the adult forms once an infection has taken hold - which is why, if you miss a month and then continue, you might not be covered. 

Just to add to our concernd I just met someone with a cocker who was recently spayed then the same evening haemoraged. Fortunately  they managed to save her and she is recovering well. They did test for lungworm before spaying but only the same day(didnt know you could get results that quickly) and said it was negative but  it does make you wonder

One of the posts I read on another forum was by someone who worked in a vet surgery.  She said that they are routinely treating dogs for lungworm before planned surgeries now, to prevent them bleeding out.

Yes in th etalk I went to he was saying similar, particulalrly on the south coast. However the flip side of that is some vets are worried that if they insit on that people may avoid surgery because of the extra price of the treatment I think I was saying something tin the region of £30- £40 dont know if that also includes faecal testing as well
His advice was advocat spot on plus another wormer to cover the rest all on a monthly basis. Its being to look like there is very little way around the spot on if you want to use something that is adefinite preventative

Is there a map or something that would show where the lung worm is found around UK or is it everywhere?

One of my girls was coughing/being sick and when I took her to vets the vet diagnosed Kennel cough and did not seem worried about lungworm even when I mentioned it.  Although I mentioned she has not really been anywhere where she could catch it as I had been unwell so the dogs had exercised in the garden only for a while... Others did not develope it and she has now stopped coughing like she was but after spending 3 days in a car with her I noticed she still occasionally does cough so have put her on panacur for 7 days just in case.
She also seems to get rather out of breath for a fit dog when she zooms around the garden with the other dogs...

My other girl had to have C section and they really struggled to stop the bleeding for some reason, I'm now paranoid maybe we have issues with Lungworm!
I also have a 8 month old youngster so am now even more worried there could be an issue and only one is showing signs of coughing etc.
They do eat loads of grass and I have seen them sniffing/licking/eating snails(especially the baby) and we have loads of toads in the garden too!

How is the testing done, is it a blood test?

I'm in Cambs.

I think the test is 3 faecal samples. The main areas are the south coastand  london  areas, someone else may correct me I am only going by what he vet who did the talk said.
I must agree that after what you have siad I would be seriously considering taking preventative measures

Rather than testing, just put them all on a 7 day course of Panacur.  If they have it, that will eliminate it.  It doesn't show in all faecal samples.

You can buy the 1 litre bottle of the sheep/cattle/horse Panacur 10% from Hyperdrug - it's exactly the same stuff.

After a lot of thought, we're going to worm with the 7 day course of Panacur every 3-4 months, and immediately if we see any symptoms which could possibly be related to lungworm.  We're not going to do the Advocate.

I live in South Wales which is a Lungworm "hot spot".
My own Vet has told me that Milbemax given once a month through the Slug season (March to September) has now been proven to be a Lungworm preventative.
She even gave me a prescription at reasonable cost to buy it online at £3 a tablet less than the vets own charge & with 2 bullmastiffs that was a huge saving.Phew

Thank you rabid and anderbel that gives me so useful thoughts.

A very good friend of ours in Germany told us to use advocate, for worms, ticks and fleas, ive just ordered some, its given externially like frontline.

I have started the coughing one on panacur few days ago and the rest will do the course too :)

I have 1 l bottle sitting in the cupboard, I will give them the course even if it is just for my peace of mind.
As even when going in with a coughing dog and voicing my worry about lungworm the vet did not wish to test so I will not be going in just to fight to get two with no symptoms tested!

Would anybody know if Advocate can be given around pet birds? Do't seem to fina any detail about that...

We're in the Cambs area and worm for lungworm as well as tapeworm etc so we Panacur them and advocate them. Wouldn't take the risk with lungworm on the rise and particularly in areas like this. Alderforth access near Ely had several reported cases on lungworm before it closed.