Hi every one, this is just a discussion and not having a go at any one.

How can some one be a breeder, when some people say you need Experience to become a breeder? I find people who have been breeders for 10 - 15 -20 years, seem to tell people not to breed thier dogs. Isn't it better for breeders to help the new ones to breed properly? i have spoke on here for a while now and i do find people very helpful and i thank them for their advice. Im just wondering how new breeders can get Experience if they are always being put down?

Could any one tell me why older breeders put younger ones down?

As i say its not im having a go at any one just want to know why?

Thanks

Mandy x

Of course one a person only has to have bred a single puppy to be 'a breeder'; it's not a question of numbers! That said, there's an old saying "Fools learn from their own mistakes; wise men learn from other peoples'. " Breeding is far too important to be rushed into - these are real lives that you're responsible for - and so the experienced breeders will try their best to stop other people making avoidable mistakes.

I have to say, I agree. Everyone has to start somewhere and new breeders would benefit from the help and support of more experienced breeders. I tend to read and not post much because I see lots of disparaging posts. I recently had my first litter and thankfully everything went well, very straighforward and the puppies are now 5 1/2 weeks old and doing wonderfully. It may be my last though as although I have found perfect homes for the pups, I hadn't appreciated how attached you get to them and will be devastated when they go at 8 weeks old.

I think sometimes on this forum someone joins and posts about breeding a litter and those who have been breeding for years try to glean information as to the why's and wherefores of the reasons for breeding. It may sometimes come over as a bit judgemental but is always done in the best interests of the dogs.
When you have been in a breed for years and have bred pups you can become a little sceptical and view all prospective "Newbies" with caution. Unfortunalty (Or NOT !!) many long termers on the site have seen or heard it so many times before that they will be cautious about encouraging a new breeder untill they have dug around a bit to see how commited they are. This can come over as discouraging and sometimes rude. What we would really like to see is people asking the important questions before they mate thier bitches and learning from the long established breeders on the site. So often people with little knowledge crop up with a really easy question about a due to welp bitch that they really should now the answer to. It then shows that not enough thought has gone into the preperations beforehand.
I hope and believe that most Good well established knowledgable breeders will always encourage a newcomer to get things right first time. I for one would certainly mentor any one of my puppy byers who wished to breed.
Aileen

Thank you for your response, they are very good sayings, yes i know you have to learn from your mistakes, i have had a litter 20 years ago and have waited now to breed my girl. i think the time is right.

Thats very true they are real lives your looking after, and can understand that there are dogs and cats wanting new homes.

Thank you again for your coment!

How can some one be a breeder, when some people say you need Experience to become a breeder?

Experience in dogs in general. Before I bred my first litter, I had kept dogs for 21 years, I'd been a member of breed clubs all that time, I'd been showing for 18 years, been to lots of training classes, I'd even worked as a vet nurse, dog groomer and kennel maid, so I had plenty of experience of dogs in general. I'd also spent a lifetime breeding (and showing) other animals, from mice to cats with everything in between so had lots of experience of breeding. The way I saw it, I had slowly built up to dogs and would not have been ready sooner. Even so my first litter took me by surprise -it was so much harder than anything else I'd done. I think what a lot of us object to is people buying their first dog and then instantly decide to breed -how can such a person even think of advicing their puppy buyers when they come to you for help and advice? Because they will -you will be asked every question under the sun about temperament, training, feeding, grooming, stages of puppy development, health problems etc etc.

Hey thanks for your message especially if you dont post alot on here.

Congratulations on your puppies i bet they are beautiful.

I have asked for advice on here and so far every one has been fantastic and i have had no coments that has been bad. But i wish there was a web site for Experience breeders to help people who are just starting out.

Yes i got very attached to my first lot of puppies but the homes they went to i asked the owners alot of questions and they were all positive apart from 1 couple who i said no to, she was only 18 and they could not cope with the responsibilities.

Im now on my second litter (Fingers crossed scan tomorrow) and i have done most of the checks that need doing i have done hips, eyes, & PRA. My girl has vet checks every 6 months to make sure every thing is ok.

So a big thank you for putting your views accross!

Mandy x

Wow thank you, that has explained a few things to us.

I can understand that experience breeders must get fed up with the question time and time again, and also think people should do thier home work as well, no matter how many books you read, its so nice to have some one there to ask.

Its nice to know that you would be a mentor, i myself would like a mentor, saying that i do have the stud dogs owner to help me from time to time. So good for you thanks for sharing this with us.

Mandy x

like alot on here have also said its good to get mentor thats been in your breed for many years and knows in and outs of breeding "your breed" as not all breeds whelp the same some more then others need alot of help and if this isnt known and you breed just because you think your bitch will make a good mum ,things can take a turn for the worst very quickly! so having some1 you can talk to helps alot!!....reading as much as you, listen to what youve been told if advise as been asked for and given, plus theres so much more......
x

A mentor is most critically for use in your planning process - deciding what bitch to buy, what sire to use - the ins and outs of the breed, the lines, the individual dogs.  If you read the right books and learn then you need a spare pair of hands at whelping, not a 'mentor' - someone who the bitch knows and trusts and who can drive/phone/make tea/hold bitch/clean pups etc!  A practical help rather than the more strategic help of a 'mentor'.  If the practical help has experience of whelping so much the better, but someone to support your decisions and has the confidence of the bitch is far more important.  Interestingly in GSDs there are people who are paid to 'check' pedigrees - mostly for hidden things like epilepsy, EPI etc who aren't 'mentors' but provide a valuable service.  In Border Collies we're blessed with a cracking site which includes many of the things we look for - pedigrees back to 1900s, colours, diseases, in-breeding, test matings, hip/elbow scores, hearing tests, eye tests etc.  Such a valuable resource!

would love a site like that pennyGC!
x

I think the idea that experienced breeders ( on this forum) put beginers down - comes from the reponses you may have read to posters who come on here and say things like...

I have mated my 12 month bitch or - I want to mate my untested pet bitch or - I have had a litter of 8 and cant find any homes for them...etc etc.

We sit here and read statments like "I have just had my first litter and have found the most perfect homes ..easy!"  Just wind on the experience clock and see just how many stay perfect homes, how one copes with getting one or perhaps two teenage hooligans back etc etc.

It can rankle to see a post which effectively says..." Im going to have puppies and you WILL tell me how to whelp them, wean them, sell them and cope with the buyers who now want their money back"  And "you wont critisise me or tell me to do anything i dont want to!"

Not easy to accept when I had to earn respect from my peers and then hope they would support me when I needed it.

hi white lilly, very well put, the thing is if your breeder who you first got your puppy from wont mentor you after, then you do have to search some where else, which is why i came on here with all my questions in fact i got some good advice from some one, when my girl was licking her privates over and over and over again they said to go to your vet, i did that and my girl had an infection and was put on antibiotics, so some people can be great...

Saying that where would some one find a mentor of thier breed, yes i totally agree that some breeds are hard to breed and a lot of breeds have complications, which is where i think a mentor should help some one.

Thank you for your message, i think with all these coments and hopefully people will read these coments it could help others.

Thanks again

Mandy x

Hi PennyGC,

Very interesting to know all them things you have pointed out. Some people are very good at doing 3 - 6 things, and some people are not.

Wow thats interesting its nice a border collie has a good site. I myself have not looked on it as i dont know the web site. I wish there were alot more sites where people can go!

Well done nice to know there is a border collie site is up and running (I hope any way)

Thank you again reading this has opened my eyes yet again!

Mandy x

White Lilly i totally agree sounds like a very good one!

> We sit here and read statments like "I have just had my first litter and have found the most perfect homes ..easy!"  Just wind on the experience clock and see just how many stay perfect homes, how one copes with getting one or perhaps two teenage hooligans back etc etc.
>

Tooolz, I assume this sentence was aimed at my post. Unfortunately no-one can look into the future and we can only do our best in finding what we hope are 'perfect homes'. As I mentioned this was my first litter of pups but have had dogs all my life and have been breeding ponies for several years so fully understand the commitment needed. If you have had one or two teenage hooligans back, maybe that implies that you were also at one time less experienced and needed help???

> Saying that where would some one find a mentor of thier breed, yes i totally agree that some breeds are hard to breed and a lot of breeds have complications, which is where i think a mentor should help some one.

Hi Mandy

This is where being involved in a breed club, and/or in some aspect of your breed like showing, working, training, racing - whatever activites are out there - is so important.  That's where the 'experience' part comes in.  Not just experience owning and loving a dog, but being involved in areas where you'll find like minded people involved in the same breed where you can see and experience the different aspects and learn from those around you.  It's wonderful to have 'a' mentor - it's even better to have several friends in the breed who's opinions you respect, and who's respect you've earned as well.

I think it's very sad when a breeder sells a pup and then isn't interested any more.  I have a great relationship/friendship with the breeder of two of my girls, and have developed a good friendship/relationship with the people who purchased pups from my first litter 3'ish years ago.  As a breeder I feel responsible for those lives for their whole lives.  I don't want to smother the owners, but they know I'm always a phone call away, and we try to see each other once a year or so, and are in touch more often than that.  My pups went with endorsements, and now 2 have been spayed/neutered, but if they had wanted to breed I would have been open to talking about it and guiding them the way that my breeder and other friends in the breed guided me.

When people talk about mentoring it sometimes brings up a picture of someone way up on a pedestal who grants knowledge and wisdom.  For me a mentor can be anyone with time, knowledge, respect - and generally a mentor isn't someone way up on that pedestal, but someone who comes along side and is willing to guide you, point you in the right direction, but also willing to accept that you may make your own mistakes and will be there to help you anyway - we all did start somewhere. 

So for me I didn't have what I would officially call a mentor per se.  I had the breeder of my girls who helped me make decisions, I had my best friend who is also in the breed and has similar lines, and a couple of other long term people in the breed who's opinions I valued and advice I asked for along the way for my first litter. 

For this litter a seed was planted in my mind while my first one was only a few months old of where I wanted to go next.  I toyed with it, researched it, bounced the ideas off some friends in the breed, and as I write this I'm sitting in Sweden just having followed through.  A long time in the planning stages, a lot of effort and money into the trip, and I pray it pays off.  It's a risk, but a calculated one.  But one I know I'm willing to make because I have the support of my friends in the breed.

I still come here and read the posts as I've only bred the one litter, and everyone has a different way of doing things, and I think we can learn a lot from how other breeders do things, or their experience (even down to most people in our breed use Lactol - but I will probably try Welpi based on recommendations from here). 

You take what you can work with, it stings to be told something you think might be wrong, or presumptuous or that you should go in a different direction, but for the most part it's out of concern for you and the dog, not out of any malice.

sorry I've kind of wandered a bit in this reply - I hope no offense was taken from it as none was meant.  Just when you asked were best to find a mentor these were the things that came to mind.

Hi Wendy,

Thank you for your message, very interesting reading.

I dont have any one i can speak to, apart from the stud dogs owner who keeps in touch with me on a weekly baises.

I dont think you have offended any one, and if people decided to read things like your coment and all the others that have been put on here then they would have learnt some thing.

I dont know if you can help just one little question -  My girl will be 5 weeks pregnant tomorrow (we hope having scan tomorrow) would she have been showing yet? As her tummy looks very full. The last time she was pregnant she did not really show until she was 8 to 9 weeks pregnant, this time she is huge. Hope some one can help on this small matter!

Thank you again Wendy

Mandy x

> Tooolz, I assume this sentence was aimed at my post

Not particularly, but it is likely that when many experienced breeders suggest caution, not breeding until everything is in place,consider the pitfalls, less stressful to buy in etc....there is usually someone who posts suggesting that their one experience counters this.

Another critisism sometimes voiced is that breeders want a cartel where they are the only ones who have pups for sale. So far from the truth in many cases. Several litters into ones experience actually reduces an ethical breeder's desire to breed dogs.

Birth to death....means divorce, sick children, bereavment.....you name it!

> I dont know if you can help just one little question -  My girl will be 5 weeks pregnant tomorrow (we hope having scan tomorrow) would she have been showing yet? As her tummy looks very full. The last time she was pregnant she did not really show until she was 8 to 9 weeks pregnant, this time she is huge. Hope some one can help on this small matter!

Having just had the one litter and a bitch who would suck in her stomach any time I looked at her (seriously!) I can't honestly answer that question.  I think it varies from bitch to bitch and breed to breed.  At the same time she was pregnant she barely showed compared to others of the same breed who were around the same dates as she was.  Some of them were huge at 5-6 weeks, and by the time 9 weeks rolled around you thought they'd pop if you touched them.  Mine just got a little heavier - I think she kept them all up in her ribs.  It was only in the last week or so when they started moving that I knew she was and she ended up giving birth to six! (only four live).  Others who gave birth to 3-4 were twice her size. 

I hope you find what you're looking for on the scan.  I never scanned last time as she hated the vets and I didn't want to put her through the stress.  With her daughter that I've just bred I'm hoping someone can recommend a good sheep scanner in our area and I likely will get a scan.  In our breed it's been rare that people scan.  they mostly feel if they're pregnant they're pregnant and if they're not they're not.  I'm like you - I want to know and last time I drove myself round the bend.

If you're interested in my experience click on my profile and follow the link to my website,click on 'writings' across the top, then 'musings of a first time breeder'.  I'm amazed I'm putting myself through this again!

> But i wish there was a web site for Experience breeders to help people who are just starting out.
>
>

The point is breeding needs to be learnt from others experienced in dog and in your breed especially.

You don't learn just from websites or books you first need to have the background knowledge and preparation before you breed and importantly the support of the people who have the knowledge you lack.

To make sense of you breeding you need the knowledge of what went before, obviously you will only have personal knowledge of your won dogs and the dogs currently being shown or worked, so you need the people who knew, owned and bred the dogs generations before, and as time goes by you will have that knowledge to pass onto new breeders/owners  This is supplemented by research into records bred publications (books, journals yearbooks etc).

They will know what influences they had, what traits come through strongly from particular ancestors for good or ill.  this is what we mean by mentors.

The most likely mentors are going to be the owners/breeders of your bitch/dog and those of the parents of your dog or bitch, after that if you have chosen  a stud belonging to an experienced owner then they will also have knowledge and different perspective.  Also you will soon find that you admire dogs from certain kennels and can learn from their owners.

This is the starting point for breeding after you have shown or worked your dog to prove their merit.

What people on this board get really upset about is people simply allowing a dog and bitch to mate, with little knowledge of even the reproductive process beyond that.  This becomes quite obvious when the most basic questions are being asked.  Thsi means they are endagnering theri bitch and puppies, and failing in the most basic responsibilities to the dogs, the breed and future puppy owners.

The last time she was pregnant she did not really show until she was 8 to 9 weeks pregnant, this time she is huge.

Bitches will pretty much always look bigger with a second litter, even if that litter is smaller than the first.

What annoys me are the members who are totally clueless of the breeding whelping process etc and arrive looking for an answer to a problem and don't have answers to the basic questions about their bitch. Many don't even acknowledge the replies that members have made leaving us unaware of the outcome of the situation.

This happens on all dog forums bar for one I was approached to join with very strict rules for remaining a member.

When thinking about breeding is when folk need to join forums for help and support members then get to know them before pups are on their way.

So experience does come with time but it is how you go about it that really matters.

> I dont have any one i can speak to, apart from the stud dogs owner who keeps in touch with me on a weekly baises.
>
>

Do you not go to shows/working/events/competitons/work your dogs.  This is where people involved in the various canine hobbies/jobs are, and of which breeding is a progression/consequence.  Breeding is not the end in itself.

Very good question:

There are different types of breeders:

1. A breeder who has a love of their breed, understands it, be-friends others in the breed either via showing, working, gains experience from those people does all relevant breed related health tests and then decides to breed learning everything they need to know along the way to give their bitch and the pups every chance of survival and care throughout. Who will also become a valued friend able to pass on everything from training to behaviour advice to their puppy owners. In other words someone who has done their homework.

This type of breeder may very well come on site for confidence and to be around others who have bred for support even though they have a mentor,

2. This type of breeder will also do their homework prior to breeding, understand their breed but may not show or work their dog, (this may well be questioned as the dog may not be a specimen within the breed standard or a suitable working dog without experience) but the breeder will do all relevant health checks and understand their breed and be confident in being able to also offer all advice needed to puppy owners.

This type of breeder will also come on site as above for extra support and confidence

3. This type of breeder may breed because their dog is cute or they think they can make money, will have done NO! homework, NO! health tests, is not able to offer a lifetime of support to their puppies owners (who probably will know more about the breed than the breeder) they basically just put a and b together and then think whoo, not quite sure what I'm doing, I'd better go on a website and see if I'm doing it right. :-(

This type of breeder will need to ask every question from start to finish, which will frustrate many of us as this should always be done prior to breeding, there is no excuse, if they can come on a website after mating and whelping to ask questions, why not before to get expert advice? Little care or thought has been given to the bitch or the pups and who would wish to be in the hands of a human midwife who has just walked off the street into a maternity ward and said "ok I'm your midwife, I fancy doing that today" with no knowledge at all? A bitch deserves the same courtesy.

Everyone has been a first time breeder, been worried and needed support via a mentor or a good forum like this one, but do you see the complete difference between them and often the completely different reactions to them due to how it has come about.

We all enjoy spreading our knowledge and learning from each other, we welcome very much a breeder who has done their homework but needs support and often to learn how others may do things, we all do things slightly differently and add to our own knowledge.

Im just wondering how new breeders can get Experience if they are always being put down?

Breeder 3 (from my explantations) is the only breeder that would be put down and quite rightly so. :-)

Hi Brainless,

Thank you for your comment, you will probably go mad with me but no i dont go to any of these events. I am disabled and cant get any where far, my son helps me when we have puppies. I know i should go to these, but its very hard for me to get there and sort things out

Sorry

Mandy x

Really there are just two categories of breeder, responsible and not, then these categories may have subdivisions.  The chart below may clarify.

http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

Mandy, Brainless will understand and may even be able to help, she has her problems as well.

Hi Nova,

Thank you, its nice to know some one has been there and done it.

I just did not want you all thinking i was just after the money with Honey and its not there are loads of reason why i like to breed from Honey.

Thanks again

Mandy x

Hi Brainless,

I will certainly have a good read of it.

Thank you for taking the time out to show me it!

Mandy x

By joining breed clubs and attending local training classes you will meet people.

Until three years ago I was wholly reliant on the help of other owners and exhibitors to get to shows and classes and other events.

A breeder worthy of the name cannot exist and work in isolation, they need to be part of the wider community of dog owners, how else can they know what is available in the breed and what direction to take, and know what is needed?

Belonging to a breed club is in my opinion is vital, it is the forum for sharing all things about a breed.  How else will someone get up to date information about the breed, health issues, etc?  How do you study breed lines etc?.  Breed clubs run Helath seminars, educational events, training days etc.

How did you meet the stud dog owner, the breeder of your dogs.  It is exactly the same meeting other breed and other canine enthusiasts.

I think people are a little scathing because I bet 99.9% of the long term members on here had a breed mentor to help them out, an internet forum is not really the place to get some of the information we are asked as you are really meant to have done homework before you breed, you wouldnt buy a car or house without looking into it. Its just a bit scary sometimes when you log in and see people asking the most simple questions with their bitch about to drop.

I agree people do have to start somewhere however there are means and ways of doing things so join breed clubs get to know breeers in person go to talks it doesnt have to be show dogs, it could be working or obediance dogs, get to know about health tests and why they are done. Then and only then take the plung otherwise they are no different in my eyes as BYB or a small scale puppy farmers.

Triona

>an internet forum is not really the place to get some of the information we are asked as you are really meant to have done homework before you breed,

Halleluja!   And this comes as such a surprise to people who feel that sometimes they get replies that are a bit on the sharp side.   

And I have lost count of the number of times that I have spent considerable amounts of my precious time trying to help, and don't even get a thank you.  Or, as happens in some of our lengthy threads, you give sensible, well reasoned advice that is not what the OP wanted, so they repeat it in another way, again and again and again.  So you lose the will to live, and wonder why you bother.

Hi JeanSW,

Its nice to that people do ask questions but like you say you do feel your hitting your head on a brick wall.

In my eyes there is no harm in thanking that person who has helped you manors cost nothing.

Thank you for your time in joining in on the conversation!

Mandy x

Hey Hi to you Triona,

Thanks for your time in joining in to this conversation, its nice to have all angles put in. I have learned a fair bit with all your coments.

So a big thank you to you too.

Mandy x

i remember when i 1st joined and i think i asked some silly questions too LOL ,i have upset afew ppl but made some lovely friends too, ive had alot of help here my problem is i dont explane my self very well sometimes and thats got me in trouble here :/ but i do try now and ive had alot of help, we had the most horrible time just into the new year with 1 of our girls she has 9 pups only 2 placenters came away she bled so bad we nearly lost her and this was within 12h after her having her pups, was the worst time our our lifes the thought of looseing our girl and it as my choise to breed her, so i desided that was it no more for us for a long time! maybe never again, i have helped others (im not saying i know it all because i dont far from it) but you learn from every whelping you see and help,you can only read so much then the rest is learnt by doing, thats why alot of breeders will go and watch and help to gain experence :0) xx

It must drive experienced breeders mad when time after time someone comes on here for advice when it's obvious they haven't put a minute's thought into breeding their bitch/dog!

I am an inexperienced breeder, have only bred 2 litters, but have been in my breed for 20 years now. Before even contemplating a mating, I spent months deciding which stud to use, spoke to many experienced in my breed, and read the Book of the Bitch from front to back and then back to front again!! By the time I came here to ask a question, it obviously showed that I had some knowledge because I have never once felt someone was questioning my motives for breeding or my inexperience. All I have received from this forum is helpful advice, for which I am grateful.

I do feel that I am an experienced dog owner, I feel this is vital when homing puppies, because even if they have kept dogs for years, they will still telephone and ask for advice on training and health issues, which I am confident enough to give and also to offer hands on help if required. In fact one of our 10 month old pups' owners was considering castration as they thought it would calm him down, and after coming to walk with me, decided they would try other things before castration. If I didn't have a good relationship with them, they would have castrated, then scratched their heads as to what to do next with their rambunctious teenager...lol!

I remember not too long ago, a young man came on here to ask for advice on how to raise orphaned puppies (I think he took the pups away from a dreadful situation, not technically orphaned). All the stops were pulled out and I'm sure the fact that he went on to successfully hand raise these large breed pups was a direct result of the advice and encouragement of the experienced breeders here. This person had zero experience of what he was undertaking, yet he received 100% support from people on this forum. We all took our hats off to him for his heroic efforts, and he thanked us all with links to the photo's he took of the puppies (I'm sure most of you remember).

An example of help and guidance given to someone in genuine need which was given unreservedly on this forum.

My point is, if someone comes here for advice, they need to think about how they are going to word their query and put as much background info as possible, so that anyone trying to advise has the full picture. There isn't really any excuse for total ignorance if someone has already put their bitch into a potentially dangerous situation - they should really know better (unfortunately so often this is not the case:)).

I would like to add the perspective of someone who hasn't bred and came on here asking for advice.  I have the book of the bitch as well as several other breeding books that I have read from cover to cover several times, I am a member of the breed clubs although I am not always able to get to their events.  I show one of my bitches about every 6-8 weeks or so.  I have read websites and watched videos and even live webstreams of whelps.  I am interested in breeding my bitch.  My breeder has no interested in my bitch now I have her. 

I came on here asking about the strategy side of things - how do you research pedigree's, the dogs in them and decide on the best dog for my bitch.  I got replies that to others may have been a little bit scathing, they spelt out the truth and the most responisble way of doing things.  In the back of my mind I think I already knew I needed a mentor but I was having trouble finding one.  The truth and advise from breeders on here - people I have never met but respect from having read their posts for a long time - was exactly the bitter pill I needed to swallow.  I would still love to breed, and one day I will.  But not soon.  In the meantime I am showing my girl and learning, making friends and building a support network.  As I don't go to lots of shows this will take time but thats time I have, time to find a nicer bitch from a great breeder who will form part of that support network.  As a result of that thread I got pm's from some of those breeders offering help and advice if I need it, because I showed I was willing to listen and learn they showed they are willing to help. 

Yes members on here can come across as harsh, but if the poster is not prepared to put in a little thought and effort into research, or carefully explain their situation then why should they expect free, unbiased, unjudgemental advice from experts that have spent years accumulating that knowledge.  They are prepared to help, and they are prepared to give advice, but it is always in the best interest of the dog and they must be able to see that the person asking has earnt that advice by simply thinking through a massive decision to breed their bitch and then put in a little bit of time and effort to research the whole process BEFORE starting it.  The free advice is there for those that are prepared to work for it and then listen to it. 

What a lovley post.

So pleased to read a post that shows someone has taken on board where those who may seem to be 'raining on their parade' are coming from.  In the end it is the dogs/breeds welfare that matters.

By continuing to mix with others in the breed a network of friends advisors will be established to allow you to go forward when your truly ready, and you will have aquired a lot of knowledge and research.

Yes it is great to hear from someone who has taken on the advice instead of running for the hills in a huff and doing it anyway.

I agree with you its nice to chat about some thing and people not being put down or some one who think they are above any one else. Thank you for all your comments, its been good reading and have learned things as well. ****Up date**** just to let you all know who is interested, Honey is doing really well, and has now got only 2weeks and 5 days to go before she delivers her lovely pups! So excited again. Thank you all again x x

Keep us posted on how things are going.

Will do. At the moment she only has 2 weeks and 5 days to go before she has them, she is quite big now and some of her teats are producing colostum, she is eating for england bless her. Take care all of you and Thanks for caring x