hi just wondered what you all thought about homeopathic vacinations rather than the normal ones at vets  we have just meet some new protential buter of one of our pups who seem very nice etc  buy they dont want us to vdo vacines on the bitch puppy because they want to use homeopathic stuff  should l be worried as l dont know anything about this need some advice as to weather let them have the puppy

There is no evidence at all that homeopathic 'vaccinations' have any effect whatsoever - even homeopathic vets admit this in print! Personally I'd be reluctant to sell a puppy to someone who wasn't going to have it vaccinated by a conventional vet.

Just to clarify; I'd want the puppy to have the full course of injections and at least the first first full booster at a year. After that it's more likely to be able to fight off any infection and survive the game of chance - without that then scientifically it's effectively unprotected.

I think you have to look at the whole picture, are they suitable in all other ways?
I only did puppy vaccines and then do nosodes, after the bad reaction my lad had I will never go the conventional route again.

Could you ask them if they would let you do the first set and then it's up to them from there on in? I know this is an emotive subject and you either are very pro or vehemently against homeopathic.  There may be a valid reason that they want to do this ( ie previous bad experience?)

Good comments sawheaties. My sil who is homeopath and ex vet nurse does not vaccinate her dogs she like me is also a raw feeder.Any future dogs she has will be from breeders who are happy to let her have them before they are vaccinated which i dont think is particulalry unusual. My pup came to me before vaccination so both vaccines could be done by my vet. I also tried to find someone who raw feeds her dogs but in the end had to comprise
Problem here as I see it is there are two very different schools of thought regarding vaccines. As sawheaties said if they are perfect family for your dogs think of the bigger picture.
I know that if you are a very conventional person this is a big one to get your head round as much as if they are from the alternative medicine (not mad or weird just different) side it is a big one for them to have apup that has even had its first vaccines.
If you read a lotof the information on vaccine damage from well educate  people in the field eg Dr Jean Dodds and the like many people would think twice about vaccinating.
Personally against my sister in laws advice  I do have done  puppy vaccines and will booster next year I will then consider what I am doing after that  I am still on the fence so to speak but do use homeopathy for treatments if possible rather than the vet each situation I judge for myself to decide whats best for my dogs
Who ever has a pup will not necessarily continue to vaccinate and not necessarily for well researched and held beliefs so at least these people  are prepared to have an honest conversation with you
BTW they arnt weird just hold a different view like us barf/raw feeders v kibble feeders :)
many an interesting discussion can be held on those subjects
Also I was not intending to open a discussion of nosodes v vaccines either :) just trying to put forth a view for the op

Gosh I hope they don't read this as I'd be quite upset by your title if it was me.  I would want the first vaccinations doing but then would be happy with them doing it the way that they wish.

We have only done the first vaccination with our dogs for 20 years after losing a number of Pomeranian's years ago after vaccinations.

Would defiantly want the pup protected by a proven system as JG says homoeopathic methods are not  and that would also bring up the worry that this pup of mine would not be given proven treatment in the future and would be receiving drops of water with a memory rather than treatment by a vet. Hope I have the right opathy.

JG....with all due respect...I feel that your job as a Vet Receptionist...tends to cloud your judgement somewhat on issues of Veterinary Care...

Having suffered terrible loss of life due to vaccine reactions...I now ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT vaccinate...Instead I follow Tom Lonsdale's www.RawMeatyBones.com diet...and My pack of Border Collies are under The Care of a wonderful Homeopathic and Holistic Vet...Christopher Day of www.alternativevet.org

Times gone by I may have been more careful in what I advocate...but I have now seen and experienced enough to have become extremely Vocal in The fight against The Drug Companies.... and am actively supporting Canine Health Concerns "Stop The Shots Now" campaign.

Your puppy buyer sounds like they have done a lot of Research already...and My personal feeling is that Your Little One will be going to a Wonderful and Caring New Life...with people who Love Her...

For Myself...I now actively seek out people who wont vaccinate...and who will agree to Raw Feeding...Homeopathic and Holistic Veterinary Care...and who furthermore....agree to be part of a worldwide study by Tom Lonsdale...

>JG....with all due respect...I feel that your job as a Vet Receptionist...tends to cloud your judgement somewhat on issues of Veterinary Care...

Not at all - it means that my previous beliefs about the overall safety and benefits of vaccinations have actually been confirmed by the lack of adverse reactions; there are undoubtedly some, but severe reactions are much less common than peanut allergies in people, and nobody would suggest that peanuts are dangerous per se, would they?

Since vaccination and boostering was introduced the canine population has risen but the number of animals infected and dying of these diseases has fallen to almost nil - the benefits tothe individual and species as a whole are undeniable. Even homeopathic vets recommend a puppy course of conventional vaccinations followed by a full booster at a year of age.

"Where there is no medical contraindication, immunisation should be carried out in the normal way using the conventional tested and approved vaccines. " Taken from the British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons website. It's only lifelong annual boosters they have a problem with.

Just because I haven't bought into the scaremongering of some extremists doesn't mean that I should be ashamed of myself. Far from it.

I know I have already posted on this but as others have said it I will now voice what I was thinking....... the title is all wrong, quite insulting :(  As well as nosodes I also feed raw so I suppose I'm a weirdo? :) my healthy happy dogs don't seem to think so! :) When I had my litter I fed raw and also gave them a better quality type of wet food as I knew I would not be able to impose my views on the new owners, I didn't want them promising to do something then not. One of my owners is a professor and if he ever contacts me and asks advice I always give him both conventional and homeopathic- it's his choice what he does.

Anyway if these people's approach fills you with such horror then let them go elsewhere ( could be your loss!)  don't forget that you will ( or should) have a life long relationship with them and if you feel you are poles apart on welfare then maybe you should let them walk away?

As you will see it is a very emotive subject, we are all entitled to our views as we all care passionately about our dogs. Good Luck with whatever choice you make.

JG is voicing her opinion and like anybody on this thread has a right to voice that especially if she was selling a puppy those are the conditions she would put on any sale like the majority of people on here.

In for one agree whole heartedly with JG :-)

Please can I ask that if anybody sees a post they consider OTT that they use their Report button - it can then be dealt with (and has been) without any arguments which distract from the OP's topic

Thanks

I agree with JG too, I don't think just giving the 1st set of inoculations is enough as the pup may still have Mums immunity. You really do need to give a booster later, at a year, if I wasn't sure the new owners would do that then they wouldn't get a puppy. What they do after that is their own choice, hopefully they will titre test every few years at the very least?

It's good that your asking, I wouldn't have a clue about homeopathic vaccines either it would throw me if a potential puppy owner said that to me too, I trust JG to know what she is talking about i.e the puppy vaccines and first booster, even if following a different route afterwards.

What exactly is in a homeopathic vaccine that can wave off parvo, distemper, hepatitis, lepto, rabis etc, genuine question, we know how normal vaccines work to build up immunity, how do homeopathic vaccines work to protect dogs against these things?

I take my dogs to a homeopathic vet (I'm not sure about homeopathy, but she's a great thorough and careful vet).  Anyway, even she recommends initial puppy vaccines and boosters at 1 for a healthy dog.  After that she recommends titre testing and vaccinating when required, she doesn't recommend nosodes.  I think her stance is pretty interesting given that she is a trained vet and a traditional homeopath.

I never give the initial innoculations, leaving it to the new owners and their vet to decide what is best for their pup. Quite often a vet will start innoculations all over again anyway, so I just tell owners that I do not give them. That is as far as I have taken it. They didn't have to tell you they weren't going to use 'normal' vaccination, but use homeopathy. I would just have told them to look into it further to make sure they were making the right decision for the right reason, and not just following a trend.

Same here as Freedom of Spirit.  This puppy owner is my ideal enquiry!  I too actively seek puppy homes who do not vaccinate, willing to feed raw, approach everything holistically as far as possible.  My choice for my puppies, everyone has their own way.

why the need to vaccinate at all?????? i have owned and worked lurchers and terriers to all kinds of quarry over 20 odd years and they have never ever had any illness of any kind! in my own opinion if your kennels are clean and your dogs are healthy and fed a well balanced diet then you should have no worrys as a dog will build its own immunity.

in my own opinion if your kennels are clean and your dogs are healthy and fed a well balanced diet then you should have no worrys as a dog will build its own immunity.

own immunity to what? we arent talking about the common cold. how can a dog once its mothers immunity has worn off, build an immunity to things such as parvo virus and whatever other dog diseases there are?
if your kennel has never caught those diseases its only because any dog they meet is already protected so your dogs are cushioned from it.
that happens with people who dont vaccinate their children, for most of the time they are safe because all those around them have had the vac

So do you socialise the dogs outside of the working environment ?

Too true, I remember when I was a child it was not unusual to have to buy 4 or 5 puppies one after the other with a suitable period between one dying of distemper, infectious hepatities or leptospirosis and the purchase of the next pup. I would hate to see that happen again but suspect as with measles when enough people stop vaccination to protect the whole population then the diseases will be back.

My first vet in the UK used to tell us of what it was like during the miner's strike. People stopped vaccinating their dogs as they couldn't afford to (town in Yorks) and he saw more cases of distemper than ever before.

I don't think I would ever rely on homoeopathic nosodes, for one good reason, which Goldmali may even know about. A cat breeder some 20-ish years ago decided to stop vaccinating and use nosodes, only for her cattery to go down with Feline Enteritis. Outbreaks of it are very unusual, and only seen in unvaccinated animals, rather like canine distemper.

Can't actually remember that although I was around back then -but very interesting. (They can't have been showing then?) FIE is even known as Feline Distemper in the US.

>in my own opinion if your kennels are clean and your dogs are healthy and fed a well balanced diet then you should have no worrys as a dog will build its own immunity.

Immunity only develops following exposure to the disease. This exposure can either be artificially by vaccination (where the illness-generating aspect of the disease is curtailed) or by natural exposure to the virus/bacterium, where the disease will strike in full force. If the immune system has never been exposed to the virus it will have no immediate defence, no matter how clean the environment or well-fed the animal.

Gosh I hope they don't read this as I'd be quite upset by your title if it was me.  I would want the first vaccinations doing but then would be happy with them doing it the way that they wish.

sorry am l missing something here ?

Sawheaties why is it insulting could you  explain to me as l am lost in this conversation why is the title so offensive  l just want some advice thats all !!!!

I have probably given this example known to me personally before relating to parvo.

A rottie owner who is an Osteopath does not believe in conventional vaccines, and used nosodes.

She had a Rottie bitch, whom she bred a litter from and kept a dog and bitch pups.

At 11 months the bitch up was in season and good friend had her because of the male.

While she was away the mother and brother came down with parvo, the adult bitch survived, the 11 months dog pup died.

The house was disinfected, all doggy bedding etc burnt, layer of garden top soil removed, and some 6 weeks later the bitch pups was brought home.  She too came down with parvo and died.

I too worry about the potential negative effects of booster vaccinations, but will always give pups the full course and first booster.

> sorry am l missing something here ?

The unflattering title has since been changed.

thank you everyone very intresting reading all your replies

thanks brainless late night post sorry if it offended anyone was not intended

5 of my last litter were not vaccinated and at 6 months, 12 months and 2 years old all of them had antibodies to all of the diseases such as parvo, distemper, etc.  Therefore they had obviously come into contact with the disease and their immune systems had mounted the correct response, dealt with the disease and produced antibodies.  Dogs do build their own immunity once the mother's immunity has worn off as has been proven with titre testing.

> Can't actually remember that although I was around back then -but very interesting.

It was Burmese, as far as I know.

I couldnt agree with you more Zajak....animals (and people) CAN...and DO...develop Natural Immunity...and especially if they are being fed a Species Appropriate Diet....

Eg...A dog is a CARNIVORE...its entire physiology indicates a RAW MEATY BONES diet...not the CR#P that the Multi-Billion dollar Pet Food Companies manufacture...not vegetables...not ground up contaminated mush that sends their teeth into decay inside of 3 years....

I have never lost a puppy at Birth...their deaths at 8 weeks old.... have been due to vaccination...and last year to creosote poisoning from a contaminated organic farm which borders My property....

My unvaccinated Raw fed dogs have natural immunity as proven by Titer Tests at a Year Old....

Vaccinations...CAUSE...and Spread Dis-Ease....and CAUSE...long term weakness in The Immune System....

JG...it is unfair to call those of us who choose NOT to vaccinate..."Extremist"....just because We have seen The Light...as far as The pet Industry is concerned...

I think though you are in danger of trying to push your feelings on other people, there is no right or wrong way everyone has a there ways of doing things and to try and push them down a path because you think its right i feel is unfair. It is also unfair to be rude to anyone and say they cant have a pup if they dont fit into a narrow requirement, i have never lost a pup to vaccine reaction but have lost 2 puppies to parvo and it was a horrific death.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Since vaccination and boostering was introduced the canine population has risen but the number of animals infected and dying of these diseases has fallen to almost nil -

Is this not similar to human diseases that have been almost eradicated through immunisation, eg polio and TB?  This success could then lead to reduced need of vaccination. 
I haven't had my dogs' boosters done for 2 years [ie missed 1 year so far] one is 14 years old; my vets have never suggested that she/they may not need it, which I interpret to be very different to the consensus of opinion on here - dogs do not need yearly boosters for such a length of time [my current eldest has had 13 including her 1st two puppy jabs].  This gives me a lack of faith in vets and feel that they could be more interested in income than health.

Is this not similar to human diseases that have been almost eradicated through immunisation, eg polio and TB?  This success could then lead to reduced need of vaccination.
I haven't had my dogs' boosters done for 2 years [ie missed 1 year so far] one is 14 years old; my vets have never suggested that she/they may not need it, which I interpret to be very different to the consensus of opinion on here - dogs do not need yearly boosters for such a length of time [my current eldest has had 13 including her 1st two puppy jabs].  This gives me a lack of faith in vets and feel that they could be more interested in income than health.

That is your right to go down that path and i have no problem with people choosing this i to have chose not to vaccinate after their 1st year booster, i just feel its unfair to push a view on to a potential puppy buyer.

Vets have to play safe and follow the vaccine manufacturer's recommendations. If they told you there was no need to booster after the first year and your dog then died of parvo, you could sue them -and in this day and age, that is likely to happen with people always looking to put blame anywhere else but on themselves.

I have vaccinated every dog I've ever owned every year. I don't want to take risks as my dogs are out and about so much among other dogs , shows, training classes etc. That's my choice, for my dogs. If a puppy buyer don't want to do the same, then it is up to them. If they are otherwise an ideal home it has to be up to them what to feed and how to medicate their dogs or not, whether to neuter or not, as long as it isn't making them ill. Once sold I cannot dictate how somebody else looks after their dog. All I can do is tell them what I do and what I recommend. You only need to put the boot on the other foot and consider how you'd feel if you bought a pup and was told you HAD to feed it this way or that way, HAD to vaccinate or not vaccinate etc.

But most vets still say that you have to do it every year when many manufacturers are now saying only every 3 years.

the Lepto and something else are every year, I call those the 'baby jabs'.  Then every three years they get the full whack.

I'm torn. I don't like the idea of overvaccinating and was thrilled when the three year protocol came out.  On the other hand I don't like to feel that if I don't vaccinate then I'm relying on others who do to keep my dogs safe. So while my dogs are fine having their jabs they will get them.  If I have a bad reaction then I will have a rethink for that dog.

As for puppies from me, I would like to see them have the initial vaccinations at the very least, and ideally a 1 year booster, but that's up to the owners.  However not having them vaccinated would void any potential 'health guarantee' that might be in my contract when it comes to those diseases they should be vaccinated for.

Back to the OP - if the home is otherwise good, talk to them about your concerns, get some more info.  While I feel the way I do as outlined above, for the perfect home otherwise I might be willing to make concessions or meet them half way.

Its a money-spinner for them...thing is how many dogs do genuinely die of parvo...compared to how many dogs...DO die from parvo or lepto introduced by the vaccine itself....???

Parvo....much like The AIDS virus...is a MAN MADE virus..The horrific spread of parvo throughout the world in the seventies...was in direct Correlation with the introduction of the vaccine into each country....

Its the Parvo/Lepto Vaccine that kills puppies and older dogs....and NOT the parvo virus itself.....

Back on planet Earth....

I would definitely cross-examine potential new owners as to how far they would take the use of alternative medicine.

Would they seek out a conventional vet in the case of obvious infection or epilepsy or kidney failure etc?
Do they use a veterinary practice that just has an holistic approach and combines conventional AND alternative care or do they intend to just rely 100% on homeopathic remedies?
Are they the sort of people who would recognise a potential life-threatening condition?
Are they aware of the implications re insurance if they choose NOT to vaccinate? Some insurance companies apparently will waiver the vaccination requirements if titre tests show immunity - but that is highly unlikely in a very young puppy.

If a breeder lets puppies go before 1st vaccination, they usually have no idea if it is done by the new owners. But if a buyer states their intention is not to vaccinate, it can only be your own personal feelings on the subject that matter. If you feel uneasy about them, don't sell them a pup.

>The horrific spread of parvo throughout the world in the seventies...was in direct Correlation with the introduction of the vaccine into each country....

As someone who was there at the time, I remember well the tragic deaths and the terror that spread through the dog community because there was no vaccine available and vets were having to use a cat vaccine because that was closest to what was needed, and mitigated the situation a bit. So in reality the vaccine followed the disease, not the other way around.

jloubs, of course I will explain my comment. I found the original title insulting because to me "weird" would be something like them having two heads, or something really extreme; it didn't really explain the content of the message! You were obviously shocked by this approach and in my opinion used "weird" wrongly. I think the new title is much more fitting. Just because someone has an alternative viewpoint to yours doesn't make them "weird", it just means they are looking at the wider picture which is what I suggested you do with these people. They are obviously looking at all aspects of dog ownership with an enquiring mind which can only be a good thing.

As others have said if the prospective owners read this topic they might be slightly offended? :) However, your puppies, your decision, we all just want what we think is " best" or appropriate for them.
As stated previously I hope your decision is nased on more than one factor, good luck. I hope you find all opinions interesting, there is sure to be a wide range!

Having owned the same breed for many years and had lots of puppies go - always had the full vaccinations and the puppies and never had a problem, I find it quite hard to understand that dogs can become ill or even die from it to the extent that is suggested here.  I know I have always felt comfort in the idea that my puppies have immunity for a period to anything that Mum has either been exposed to or vaccinated against. I know we do not know when that immunity wanes in any dog but I do know you can be unlucky.
A customer of mine lost her Labrador about 18months ago when there was an outbreak here of Parvo and it was a bit scary to have so local. After that, our vet does an extra jab at 16 weeks ( no charge )  so the immunity period has not been missed.
I have discussed with him the need in general and he also says he remembers as a practicing student that so many dogs died when there was less vaccination. The disease is out there, that is for sure. They have recently sent the leaflet explaining the 3 year period for boosters etc so not pushing every year for all diseases particularly.
I don't feed raw but do add some meat to their biscuit my dogs are happy and healthy and have all lived on the whole to the sort of age they should  for the breed. I have known someone who feed raw and the whole natural thing have a lot of bad luck if that is what it is so is that what it is.
I will like others on here continue as I have been as I think I am doing the best thing for my own dogs.  I do hate being lectured too or hearing people scare others.
I feel sure there is more risk in having no vaccines at all than doing so.
Just my opinion.
Diane

I wasn't scaring people when I mentioned how many Pom's we lost after vaccinations, it was fact and the reason why we do not booster every year.

>the reason why we do not booster every year.

But do you give the initial puppy course?

This is not the place for a debate about whether vaccinations are necessary - it's been done many times already. Can we stick to giving advice to the OP please ie how do other breeders feel about selling pups to owners with a different approach to vaccinations than their own.

Well I would be unhappy and I think as I am mostly lucky that I have more homes than puppies, I would pass on this one as I would feel very uncomfortable. Same as I do not let puppies go to homes where they would be in kennels or outside runs. I guess we all have a set of rules.
Diane

> But most vets still say that you have to do it every year

I've only used two vets and both use the three yearly vaccination regime