I just looked up a dog who I know has been used quite a lot and he has sired over 550 puppies from nearly 90 litters. the breed has about 1500 puppies registered a year. This seems like a rather number of puppies to sire to me. Just wondering what others thought?

lilyowen I have sent you a message :-)

Bitcon Troubador is on nearly every CS pedigree in the counry - he must have worn out his organ!!
Is it not an age thing? more pups when younger less than older? If you think out Whistler was one of 9 puppies to get to 1500 pups would be approx. 170 litters! It would therefore depend on breed and litter numbers, plus if pups were not (as healthy) any good you would stop using the stud/sire anyway.

Must have a huge smile that dog any by AI?

There seems to be two extremes, one where a friend of mine nearly lost her line because she was so careful who used her dogs, she was very fussy and eventually has now got pups from her 11 year old dog, used for the first time, with a bitch on loan.  This was her last chance as no other relatives were still available for breeding.  The other is that now 99.9% of all registered (ISDS and KC) border collies have a certain dog from the 1960s in their pedigree.  Those known about mean that he had 256 pups from 180 litters - this is likely to be a low estimate.  Interestingly the rise of brown (UK red) collies is attributed in part to him carrying the brown gene (he himself was black and white).  I think that somewhere in the middle - towards the former rather than the latter is the better number!  You don't know necessarily what each dog carries - in this case it led to an increase in a certain colour but what if it was a health issue?

There's a dog that pops up quite a lot in my breed, unfortunately he's not being used because he's a good quality dog, he's only being used as the stud fee is cheap and his owner doesn't care if the bitch is registered or not.

> Bitcon Troubador is on nearly every CS pedigree in the counry

Looked him up 954 puppies from 210 litters so twice as many as the dog I was asking about. However there were 23,744 cockers registered in 2010 so as a percentage he has sired considerably less.

Jake is ISDS but we didnt bother with KC with him.

Well done you where did you find that? I niticed he pops up frequently. 210 litters yep must have died a happy dog.

There are many excellent dogs that are never used, and there are always going to be dogs that should never be used siring litters. In numerically large breeds it doesn't (on the whole) make a huge difference, but in a numerically small breed it can be catastrophic. If a well used stud dog then has a medical problem who is to blame? The breeder for using the dog? Or the stud dog owner for allowing him to be used to often? It's a pity a cap can't be put on the number of times a dog can be used in a lifetime.

cripes, i looked up both my schnauzers on the interbreeding thing on KC site and my bitch that comes from a well known kennel that keeps up to 100 dogs at a time is only 6.3% interbred with the average being 6.5%
my other bitch from a small breeder came up as 26.5% interbred and when i checked her pedigree she has the same grandfather on both sides and the same great grandfather on both sides
not sure if thats how you work it out

If a well used stud dog then has a medical problem who is to blame? The breeder for using the dog? Or the stud dog owner for allowing him to be used to often?

Trouble with trying to blame someone is that health issues are not always known about, or understood.  It's 99.9% certain that the popular collie carried CEA, but there was no real knowledge of how this would happen at the time (early 60s) - it would have been a lot worse had he carried TNS as unlike CEA it's a fatal disease.  Interestingly in Australia they had a high incidence of CL (a fatal storage disease) and they did well to work out where the carriers were before the DNA test was available, so they bred around the known carriers of CL which sadly led them straight into TNS!  So then they had 2 fatal diseases to avoid.  Fortunately with DNA testing we can continue to use carriers (although there's been a lot of people - usually with clear dogs - who've looked disapprovingly at those who've advocated this) and maintain as wide a gene pool as possible.  Eventually it is hoped that CEA, CL and TNS will be things of the past.  I worry far more about epilepsy and poor breeding :-( Although it was inexcusable (ignorance isn't an excuse) that a puppy with TNS was born fairly recently in the UK.

See the sire of one of ours had around 30 litters & 215 pups.

Popular Sire Syndrome or PSS is one way to take your breed up a genetic cul-du-sac.

If youre lucky and that stud didnt carry any majorly problematical genes, then the biggest problem the breed will face if where to go in the next generation and the next as all potential mates are likely to be very closely related and so it goes on and on.....

If the breed is terribly unlucky and the PS is carrying something awful then you are up the proverbial creek (bearing in mind that not all diseases manifest themselves berfore breeding on from the original progeny - Boxer Cardio Myopathy was found to be a late onset disease)

In the light of so many genetic problems relating to dogs, Im sure there are many, many breeders who wished they'd looked ahead.

Finally... a PS can, in one generation, entirely alter the look/type/style/temperament of a breed and in hundreds of litters that can amount to a complete change which would be difficult to steer back as nearly all the gene pool will be related.

It is estimated that up to 80% of all genetic material is lost in some breeds due, in part, to the PSS and that is each generation.

The general advice that the FCI uses http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/29-2010-annex-en.pdf is that no dog should sire in his life more puppies than 5% of the total bred in five years before negatively affecting the gene pool.

So in your example that's 375 pups and in my breed it would be 25 puppies.

Of course that is an over simplification and a lot depends how many of their offspring in turn are used.

Ideally to be honest it would be preferable if not dog produced more litters than any bitch which from next year is 4, that would ensure genetic diversity, but I would have to not be able to use a good dog because of a quota.

I do think now that you can see how often a stud has been used it may make bitch owners consider a less well used dog.

It behoves stud dog owners to really think about how often their dogs are used and to try and make sure the lines they are used on are varied.

Bitches cannot negatively impact on a breed the way a male can simply because their offspring are fewer and of necessity are spread out over a longer period.

One of his problems is that he was cryptorchid, did tell the breeder and response was you don't want to breed & were talking of castrate him anyway.

> It's a pity a cap can't be put on the number of times a dog can be used in a lifetime.

In some countries there is. 

> interbred

means the opposite to inbred which is what the COI's refer to.

> It's a pity a cap can't be put on the number of times a dog can be used in a lifetime.

>In some countries there is.

I know. In Germany where my breed comes from there is a breed warden who will determine who can and cannot be bred from. A very tight control is kept. America has followed suit. We have had a couple of very popular stud dogs and some very nice dogs being overlooked. Such a shame as it is now getting very difficult to find a stud dog that is not related. I know where I intend to go with my next litter, but after that? I really haven't got a clue.

> It is estimated that up to 80% of all genetic material is lost in some breeds due, in part, to the PSS and that is each generation.

That is frightening.

I try to stear away from the hugly used studs in our breed as the gene pool is quite limited already there tends to be id day 3 or 4 types of pedigrees with various dogs but from certain kennels (thought some new overseas blood is creeping in now) Our bitch is related to a large percentage out there at the moment through her sire. I do think a cap should be inforced in the UK using a percentage ratio type system being breed specific. Id be wary of using a dog that has 550 offspring as you need to think further than just the one generation for a breeding program.

I agree on some dogs we looked at the same Grandfather was on both sides. Luckily enough Cockers are prolific - I always wanted a Lynwater so I will look hard for that line next time. Im thinking of partially retiring and then watch this space - more cockers - sshh dont tell OH.

My son is desperate for a dog but he and Sophia work shifts so I may get one that is his, but I babysit a lot. Not sure really, they do odd shifts but i would not like a dog left alone for longer that a couple of hours ever. Dont jump on me thats a personal preference, and Im lucky that our two come to work with us.

With the right breed and arrangement where a family member has the dog during the day can work really well. 

Nearly 12 years ago I sold a pup to a family where parents had lost their dog but were worried about the responsibility of a dog as they got older.  their daughter and family really wanted a dog too, but had both to work, so the bitch spent the day with the older couple and her evenings and weekends with the younger family members.

Good post Toolz, agree totally. Sadly a lot of people don't think ahead like that,  just because he's the 'big winner'/flavour of the month etc people flock with their bitches to use him regardless if he's actually going to complement the bitch/improve any lines.

>I always wanted a Lynwater

OMG Whistler!  They are soooooo gorgeous too.  :-)

If you ever here of any, I have researched them a lot but she isnt breeding them anymore Im told she has retired, so it would be a second generation. Im hoping.... maybe my next big purchase and this one I would show if I could. Whistler is my pet he is so loving and def. the breed for me, but as Im getting more time I would love a show dog.

I am just dashing off on hols in a few minutes (no internet access or phones,,,  bliss) I've packed all the dog stuff, just have to get a carrier bag for me.  :-)

When I get back I'll sort out the details of someone with one of her bitches.  She is out of this world.  I know the new owner has high hopes.  I'll PM you when I get back.

Jean

Whistler, never mind the Euromillions - sounds like JeanSW may have the win of a lifetime for you! :-D :-D