I only fear for human safety if someone was to accidently get caught in the middle or when trying to seperate if it did occur again for any reason. Not that they may just bite a human for no reason!

Obviously I am reluctant to even allow the slightest possibility of it ever happening again.

.> I only fear for human safety if someone was to accidently get caught in the middle

Then it seems simple re-home the younger bitch, last in first out, and yunger dog  easier to re-home. 

> Even if we got rid of the 2 younger dogs we would have to muzzle or rehome the elder dog due to fear for the kids safety.
>
>

I'm a bit confused now this was what you stated yesterday,but today you state you are not afraid for your childrens safety with your eldest bitch.
Why would you have to muzzle or re home if she was the only dog?

I really think rehoming the pup is a definate.

Secondly get both bitches in to be spayed (this may or may not work but its worth a chance)

Thirdly, As advised crate both girls in the conservatory and make sure you sit down every member of the family to explain the house rules.

And last of all get in a behaviourist. See what a proffessional has to say about the situation.

If all of that fails you can truly say that you tried everything you can possibly try, THEN think about rehoming or PTS.

I know if my parents had have sat me down as a child and said here are the new house rules regarding the dogs you ABIDE by them or the dogs have to go i would have walked over hot coals to stick to the rules.

Take a breath, discuss it with all the family and give it a go. You can look back and at least say you have tried everything possible.

I know if my parents had have sat me down as a child and said here are the new house rules regarding the dogs you ABIDE by them or the dogs have to go i would have walked over hot coals to stick to the rules.

But children are children and all it takes is a second of forgetting. I kept two male dogs apart for 11 years. Everybody knew how important it was. Yet one day, after about 3 years (so when everyone was well used to the arrangements) the kids played hide and seek and somebody accidentally let one of the dogs into the same room as the other, and it very nearly got killed.

I agree, i suppose it would depend on the age of the children involved.

I still think spaying and a behaviourist is worth a chance. This all may be a flash in a pan, one or both may be due in season have just gone out of season, may be ill etc... so many variables that i think giving it a chance will be worth it.

i think we sometimes have this idealistic image of multiple dogs all curled up together ,all best friends ,living in perfect harmony and for a lot of dog households it is and for many it isnt ....when we choose to have more than one dog and make the decision to have them indoors (which all of mine are )rather than in outdoor kennels we have to realise that things may not be easy ,sometimes permanetly or sometimes temporarily and that means shared times in the living room and the kichen or crated for a short time or gated off in another room . With all due respect you say you have had dogs for 30 yrs,well if you or your husband feel that this situation is too much i should stick to having one dog and IMO the choice of which one should be your decision because at the end of the day whatever happens you have to live with the consequenses ....   But deep down I think you have already made your mind up .dog fights do and will happen and showing teeth when breaking up a fight im afraid is common

> well if you or your husband feel that this situation is too much i should stick to having one dog

We have always owned 2 ....but never 3 or more. This was a first and certainly will never try it again.

We coped with the situation, but yes it was horrid, would have much preferred never to have had to deal with it (who would want to!)

I think it depends how severe a fight  makes a big difference...............big difference between squabbles and potential fights to the death.

Yes, i do now feel only we can decide what's right as we have to live with our choices in life........it's just not a simple straight forward decision - even if many of you think it is.............I don't think so

Expert advice has been sought today and how we move forward from here will be carefully considered

The fights were too often and increasing rapidly in frequency and severity that putting the 2 bitches back together to try and see if this or that may or may not help is seriously not a realistic option by any stretch of the imagination as I feel this could be a fight to the death or at the least a very serious injury.......we were there and saw the fight after all

sorry if i seem thick but if you had 2 bitches fighting why did you introduce a new puppy?

> sorry if i seem thick but if you had 2 bitches fighting why did you introduce a new puppy?

The OP said the bitches were fine until the pup was introduced at the start of the thread.

im also wondering what the point is of owning dogs if they live in crates as some posters suggest? how can you leave a dog locked up most of its life? a crate is even smaller than keeping it in a kennel
i dont understand

the op said
The fights were too often and increasing rapidly in frequency and severity

how did this happen in 2 days when the new pup arrived? sounds like they were fighting already?

I had to make the hard desision to re-home a pup I bred last year. She had got on fine with her Mum and Granny untill she hit about 14 months when she suddenly grew up and became a much more dominant bitch, (she always was quite a pushy puppy and very independant) then she made her move to oust her Mum from top spot. It started with growling, and rapidly got to attacking her Mum. Mum did not want to get involved and tried every trick in the book to ignore her daughter and not fight but one day it all broke out and she did fight. She would have made mincemeat of her lighter daughter and the daughter was stupid enough to goad her..Even after seperating them and the daughter coming off worse she still wanted to challenge.
Having 2 larger breed bitches fighting in a confined area is very frightening. We split them up pretty sharpish and no real damage done but it was obvious that the chips were down and we could not let them back together.
I went through a couple of weeks of non stop crying and fretting that no one but me could look after my dogs and I was terrified of re-homing but it had to be done. My house is not huge and I do not believe it good to have dogs living in seperate rooms or in cages. One day someone will make a mystake and then it is too late. My dogs are my friends and as such we live together and they need to get on. We live our lives as a family walking and playing together and the girlies join in all our activities. It is not the way I wish to live with seperating dogs all the time. We re-homed the youngster, and she settled into her new home much quicker than I could get my head round it. Now 1 year on she is as happy as a sandman, it really was the best thing for them both, I have since kept another pup from the older bitch and she is a competley different character, much more laid back and easy going. No aspirations to dominate her Mum, and Granny has always been happy to be on the bottom of the pack !! Life is much nicer and I have absolutly no doubt that we did the right thing. I would never have dreamt of re-homing Mum and I think you need to give it some serious thought. Try putting the younger dog into kennels for a few days and see how you settle back with the older one. If you feel she is safe around your family then re-home the youngster. If not then you must seriously think about if it is safe to re-home her with the possiblity of her ever biting anyone. It would be a huge responsibility to re-home a dog who had the potential to bite.You are in the unenviable position of having to decide if she is safe or not. If she is then let her enjoy the life she used to have. If not then it must be you who take her on the sad trip to the vet. Do not shirk your responsibility and hand her over to strangers in a rescue to do the job for you. I feel sure if she was safe around the family before all this started then she will be her old self once the younsters have gone (The pup is easy to re-home). Maybe you have to think that you and your hubby will have to donate your time for the next few years to this bitch and then once she has gone start again with a new pup.
It is never easy to do but you must do it right for all of you.
Hope things get sorted soon
Aileen

Merlot (Aileen) ...........what a heart breaking story. I agree with all that you say.

Tina S ...........they had 1 fight prior to this weekend about 6 months ago after grooming, which we unfortunately dismissed as a one of. Obviously if they were fighting constantly we would not have introduced a puppy. Our dogs are part of the family. Until this situation I would never have believed how much a dog can change and to such an extent in such a short time. We strongly believe the last fight would have ended in extremely serious injury or death it was that bad.

Hopefully anyone reading what happened to us and others stories within this thread it will highlight issues to other people who may end up in a similar position and the hard choices that have to be made.

I would never have believed my beloved dog could harm my other beloved dog so so badly and how quickly it progressed in less than 2 days to a point where we nearly could not stop one of them. I may never fully understand and it's an experience I sincerely hope I never go through again.

> I would never have believed my beloved dog could harm my other beloved dog so so badly and how quickly it progressed in less than 2 days to a point where we nearly could not stop one of them. I may never fully understand and it's an experience I sincerely hope I never go through again.

Fortunately it is not something that happens that often in normall socialbe breeds.  I have now owned 8 bitches with as many as five adult bitches at a time, so far without anything more than the odd spat.

One of my mentors had around half a dozen up to 10 dogs and bitches and rarely had an issue with bitches in over 50 eyars, and when she did it ws with bitches brought in that were of similar age to anyother resident bitch.

to respond to tina s  i dont think anyone on here suggests that dogs live in crates.....they are used in a variety of ways ,my dogs sleep in their crates with the doors open and still have run of the house but sometimes for whatever reason through necessity or my choice they are quite content to be crated for a short time .

I promise you it really is easy to lock one dog in her crate before letting the other out.

My two girls can walk past each others crate,stop and sniff but cannot get at each other. Actually they are rather clever (or devious!) and never utter a cross word at each other,they would only fight IF they could get at each other and that's not going to happen lol

this sounded to me like they spent most of their lives in a crate

With respect Barbara utill you have a situation with 2 bitches who hate one another it is hard to understand. You have been lucky and I hope it continues for a long time (Forever) as it is very very hard to deal with.
To answer those who think it cannot happen so fast believe me it can. My two were a normal Mum and Daughter, they got on fine, Shabby was quite brave and did play fight with her Mum and Mum never told her off. Mum is happy now to let Vino push her about too. The difference is that Shabby pushed to far and within the space of a couple of weeks changed from play into real trouble. There had been a couple of growling incidents over about 2 weeks and Mum just walked away or turned her face away but we thought we had got on top of it untill the night they fought.
It came out of the blue, OH was stroking Mum in the lounge, shabby was out in the garden I was sat watching the TV, Shabby rushed in at 100 miles an hour as pups do (She was 16 months old) took one look at her Mum being stroked and flew at her all guns blazing, Mum to give her her due tried to turn away but it happened so fast and she had finally had enough and retaliated..result fight. We seperated them fast but it was obvious that Shabby was not going to leave it and we had to seperated them from that moment as the air was charged and the slightest thing would have set her off. Shabby was always very good with other dogs and people, she would be happy to play with any other dog, It was just a hatred she had for her Mum or a dominance issue. This is true kennel jelousy and it is impossible to stop. She is now settled and happy in her new home with a slightly older Newfie male. She was spayed as a requirement of re-homing and she has no issues with any other dog now. I knew she would be fine away from her Mum as she had a lovely nature apart from the issues with her Mum. Once that was resolved she chilled out and is a much happier girl for it.
Vino I hope is a different character. I can see now (Looking back, hindsight is wonderfull) the differences between Vino and Shabby, Vino's rough play is just that, she is a happier more chilled out girl, I can see now that Shabby was always of a higher status than Vino will ever be. If Granny or Mum ever get anoyed with Vino's play and turn or walk away she will leave them alone, Shabby had to keep pushing untill I stepped in and took her away.
I know what the OP is going through. I also believe that if she feels the older bitch is not safe then she must accept the resposibility for making the disission on what to do with her. I feel that if the younger dogs are removed from the scene then the older one will settle back into a calm life, and I think this is the way forward. If however she feels the older bitch is not safe then it must be her who deals with those consequences and has her PTS and not hand that job over to a rescue.
Aileen

Sorry aileen I obviously didn't make myself very clear.

I wasn't minimising the situation just pointing out that THANKFULLY it is not that common (in breeds where getting on is the norm), but when it does occur it is serious and rarely curable, only controllable, and for many people it is impossible to live life with dogs having to be separated.

Even with my children grown up and having left home I wouldn't be happy trying to keep two warring bitches in the same house as ti would seriously affect how everyone lived, not fair on the people or the dogs in my case in an average family house.

I was just trying to add comfort in the fact that just because someone has had two fighting bitches this does not preclude them ever having a  multi-dog household again.

Thats Ok Barbara. I now have a multi-dog household again and hope that the issues never happen again. My heart cannot stand the pain...
I used to have GSD's in another life and we had kennels. I had one bitch who came to us at 12 months after being re-homed by her breeder from a less than perfect environment. Kayliegh hated my other bitches...really hated them, she was OK when out as long as no other bitches pestered her and could go to a show without problem. She was kenneled with a dog all the time except when in season when she was kenneled alone, in my whelping/in season seperated kennel. I had four large kennels with 20 ft runs attached sitting in the middle of a 1/2 acre excersise run. Kayliegh was in one end with a run between her and any other bitches. I used to let them out in rotation for a run round and play while I cleaned kennels. (They went for walks too but had thier 1/2 hour playtimes a few times a day as well) If the other bitches were out they never even looked in her direction but if she was out she would rush up to thier runs and bark at them. I stupidly thought she could not get at them till the day one of my other bitches was lying with a paw sticking out a few inches under the 2 inch gap at the bottom of the mesh. Kayliegh grabbed the foot and in a split second had all but de-gloved the whole leg and pulled Zeta half under the fence. A solid weld mesh and box profile metal frame. Bitch jelousy can be really evil and they will fight to the death. I learned my lesson fast and with skilled surgery Zeta recovered 100% but I never ever let Kayliegh out again unless the other bitches were locked inside thier sleeping quarters.
She lived to be 12 and made a wonderfull mother but whatever happened to her in her first 12 months lived with her for a lifetime. She was never a danger to a human adult or child.
Aileen

Yep this is what is meant by the saying dogs will fight for breeding rights but bitches for breathing rights.

I hope I am never faced with that situation as for me it would mean re-homing one.

> I promise you it really is easy to lock one dog in her crate before letting the other out.

>
> My two girls can walk past each others crate,stop and sniff but cannot get at each other. Actually they are rather clever (or devious!) and never utter a cross word at each other,they would only fight IF they could get at each other and that's not going to happen lol
>
> this sounded to me like they spent most of their lives in a crate

I really do fail to see how you have reached that conclusion,which I might add is incorrect.

> I really do fail to see how you have reached that conclusion,which I might add is incorrect.

Maybe not most of their lives but, logically, it has to be in the order of 50% of their time in the house.  If one is spending less than 50% of their time in their crate the other has to be spending more.

I have to say I read this also as if they were continually crated  in shifts. Forgive me if I am wrong but it is the impression given.
Aileen

> I have to say I read this also as if they were continually crated  in shifts. Forgive me if I am wrong but it is the impression given.
>

If not we are just back to the situation of keeping them behind doors or gates which is probably not safe enough when other, less diligent, members of the family may come into the picture.

My dogs are probably only crated for about 5hrs in total each day. No dog is crated at night,two have the run of downstairs and two have the run of upstairs. two are crated for approx 1.5hrs till I go out with two then they are free in the house while I run the first two,when I swap dogs over the two in the house are crated till the other two are crated,second two are loaded up then I let the other two out again. Every body gets crated at meal time then its the same thing again for the afternoon run. If I have to go out and leave them all at home two are crated and two loose. I set up a camera once for a week to see what they did during the times I was not there and they spent most of it in their crates!
Is it hard work? you bet it is but my dogs are happy and get a lot of attention,probably more than a lot of dogs get. The dog next door never goes out for a walk,three other households close to me have dogs that again are never taken out. 

I have 2 bitches who untill 2 months ago I would have said got on fine, the odd grump from the older but nothing major.

In April they had 2 massive fights, the older one ended up at the vet both times having staples in her legs. I am certain had I not managed to split them up they would have carried on and goodness only knows what the damage woulod have been.

I was horrifeid and couldn't believe my lovely sweet girl could do such damage. I had also heard (and most people were telling me this too) that you will never get 2 bitches back together so I went down the route of keeping them apart using baby gates and crates but deep down i refused to believe that 2 dogs who had previously played and slept together would never get on again.

To cut a long story short I have put a lot of effort in and thay can now be walked together quite happily and were having a lovely game of tug with each other at the weekend. It is still work in progress and I don't (don't know if I ever will) trust them together in the house.

I know it doesn't always work out like my 2 have but just wanted to add some positiveness.

A friend of mine had two Keeshond males that would try to kill each other in the house but were fine outside of it.

She had to keep them completely seperate at home.

I agree wholeheartedly with Merlot. I thankfully have never had any spats or otherwise in our household and I have had four bitches all living together at any one time. I now have a new pup and just hope that the status quo carries on. It must be the most heartbreaking decision to have to make to have to rehome any dog that has been in your care for any length of time. But I also agree that should the bitch be any danger to family members then the responsibility is with us not a rehoming centre to make the most heartbreaking decision of PTS. My first dog was a puppy farmed bitch and she was with us for 11 years before she succumbed to cancer, I knew that should something serious ever happen to my husband and I then she would have to be taken and PTS not rehomed, as her temperament was not good enough for rehoming. She never ever bit anyone but that was only because we ensured that she was never in a situation were she was given the opportunity to bite. It is a huge responsibility that we carry when we own dogs.

Years ago lived for six months as a carer to a lady who had chronic back problems and spent most of the day on her bed. There were two dogs in the house an elderly mongrel and a recently homed GSD stray, the two could never meet. The GSD spent the entire time on the ladys bed, guarding her, if visitors came to the house the dog had to be taken downstairs as no one was allowed near. The elderly mongrel spent it's entire life alone in the dining room, in the large house we all had walkie talkies, so that I could let the mongrel out occasionally during the day but not before checking the all clear. It was not easy, it worked but no life for the dog in the dining room. In hindsight, it would have been kinder to have put the elderly mongrel to sleep.

> The elderly mongrel spent it's entire life alone in the dining room,

How very, very sad.  Poor old dog. 

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">they had 1 fight prior to this weekend about 6 months ago after grooming, which we unfortunately dismissed as a one of. Obviously if they were fighting constantly we would not have introduced a puppy. Our dogs are part of the family. Until this situation I would never have believed how much a dog can change and to such an extent in such a short time. We strongly believe the last fight would have ended in extremely serious injury or death it was that bad.

If the 1st fight was about 6 months ago would one or both be coming to their next season soon?
I have 3 bitches(4 years, 2 years and 7 months) and the two older ones live happily together 11 months of the year but when seasons are due the tension builds up (their seasons are 2 weeks apart so both go hormonal at the same time!).  They have had few spats and it has always been linked to seasons.
They tend to get little tense few weeks before seasons (its first sign I know one of them is about to start), happily hump each other through the season and then have another week or so after the seasons finish when I can see tension.

Hi
Ive only just read your topic and just wanted say how sorry I am youve been through all this. No one can tell you what you should or shouldnt have done until youve been there you dont know.

I have a ten year old male and a 6 year old male who get on fine. Last year I introduced a puppy despite the fact that I work in rescue I got a puppy as I thought that would fit in better than another rescue. Everything was fine for 8months then the pup got ill. She has spent the best part of the year in and out of the vets and is now on meds for life. Getting her through that cost me over 2 grand. Recently she started attacking my 10 year old dog. He doesnt fight back he does all he can to submit and get away but once shes started she is impossible to stop. Its only happened twice but after the 2nd time I had to have a really big think about what to do. Rehoming the youngster wasnt an option as no one would home a dog on meds for life who may not have a long future. But also noone would home a ten year old, black dog and there is no way I would kick him out anyway. I couldnot put the youngster to sleep as 99percent of the time she is the perfect dog!
I use two giant crates joined together when shes left and she does wear a muzzle when they are together. They get on fine most of tbe time and play really nicely together. I contacted Sarah Fisher who has been really helpful and I really feel that I can make this work.
I got bitten whilst trying to split the fight up. This is very common but she let go straight away and didnt lock on like she did to the other dog.
Dont feel bad whatever you decide and whatever people say you have to do whats right for you. Im lucky in a way I live on my own so dont need to worry about other people accidently letting one out and there are no children to take into account. Ive had people saying its cruel to muzzle her and crate her but there really is no alternative other than killing her. She loves life and goes on 3 long walks a day and does agility which is more than alot of dogs get. Obviously its not the life I planned for her but sometimes things dont go as planned. You just have to do the best you can for all involved.
Regarding the rescue situation I have worked in rescue for 10 years and not known one to turn a dog away for not being able to live with another dog. Good rescues will have an indepth chat with you about general temprement this is to assess tbe suitability to rehome and how they would cope in kennels. To me your dogs do sound rehomeable its more a case of space being available.

Hello....I have not had time to read all the posts but sympathise with your situation. I had 2 show dogs un-spayed and introduced a 3rd and all hell broke loose with some bad fights. To cut a long story short and having done alot of research I realised that my 'pack' which included humans and dogs was growing and the lower end of the pack were fighting over position. As pack leader it was my job to decide who i wanted to be at the lowest...and not the dogs through fighting. Not easy.
1) I now had to fuss them in the correct order
2) feed them and give snacks in the correct order
3) only let the highest ranking dogs next to me on the sofa
4) cuddle and groom them in order.
5) Walk them in order.

If they did not like where I had put them...and the youngest did not....she would have to be put in her place. I had to be really on the ball and when she starred at the other bitch (precursor to a scrap...eyeing her up !) i would have to intervene by putting her on her back in the submissive pose. I then called all the other dogs to me in order of their ranking and encouraged them to sniff her. (I had to manage the situation as i needed to be consistant and could not do this in public) At first she protested and she thought she was better than this but after a few times settled quickly and got much better. From having fights 3 x a day we are now experiencing a calmer home. It was real hard work but i did not want to get rid of any of my girls. WE all know where we are in the pecking order and pack and things are much better. I did not shout or hit them in any way...I did what an Alfa female would do and keep lower pack members in order. It might seem extreme but nothing else I tried even began to work.

I hope my experience helps.

> having done alot of research

In all of your research didn't you come accross anything like this, Alpha Dog Theory: Why it Doesn't work?

Some interesting points from the article;

On the occasion where true dominance hierarchies are formed (such as in captivity) the leaders that use force to back up their status are usually quickly disposed of.

"leadership is defined by the 'ability to influence others to do things they wouldn't normally do'. Leadership can indeed be gained without the use of force or aggression"

Dominance is defined by the 'relationship between two animals established by force/aggression and submission to determine who has access to resources'

Seems as if 'pack leader' and 'alpha roll/domination' aren't the same thing, and if they are, the 'leader' is quickly taken out of the role! I do hope you don't have large/powefull dogs or you may be putting yourself in serious risk of injury, not to mention the poor dogs generally finding you intimidating and confrontational :(

An excellent link, ML; especially the part " what  does this tell you if you are constantly having to 'establish your dominance' over your dog? You are belittling yourself because a leader doesn't bicker, not only that but you are giving your dog a reason to engage in even more squabbling because you seem insecure about your position as head of the family."

Also "The alpha roll also has its basis in a faulty observation, initially biologist thought that an alpha would roll another on his back to demonstrate dominance; now we know that the so called alpha roll is not forced upon the offending wolf but rather the lower ranking wolf is willingly rolling over to show submission. Again this is an example of how submission and not dominance is used to keep the peace in a pack. The only cases recorded where a wolf (or feral dog) rolls another over on his/her back forcefully was in order to kill it."

Sorry mad4dogs but it sounds more like your dogs are behaving simply because they are afraid of what you will do.  :-(

A few points.

First of all, you cannot decide what rank your dogs will take: you are a human, they are dogs.  You cannot read all the very subtle nuances of their behaviour that determine rank.  And being dogs, you have no personal bearing on their ranks anyway; you are family but you are not part of their pack.  Because you are a different species, you physically cannot be alpha.

Secondly, rank in dogs - especially bitches - tends to be quite fluid, so it varies from day to day and situation to situation.  So your imposing artificial rank, and the way you are doing (my next points) will be inflicting great stress on your dogs.

Thirdly, how you are doing it:

> i would have to intervene by putting her on her back in the submissive pose.

This is NOT a submissive pose.  It can only be submissive if the dog put themselves into it voluntarily; the only time another animal puts a odg in this position is as a very clear, unmistakable threat to harm or kill.  It is a dangerous thing to do - the people who invented it in the first place have said as much.  You have been lucky you have not been hurt.

> I then called all the other dogs to me in order of their ranking and encouraged them to sniff her.

This will have put the girl in a horrendously vulnerable position; not only is she being forced to feel extremely threatened but she is then being sniffed presumably against her will, without being able to let the others know she is not happy.  Again, you are lucky you weren't hurt; as are the others.

> At first she protested and she thought she was better than this but after a few times settled quickly and got much better.

No.  At first, she will have tried to let you know she was feeling threatened and then, when she realised she was going to be ignored, simply gave up and shut down.  This is called 'learned helplessness', when the dog cannot do anything for fear of consequence so does nothing; it is not calm and it is not good.

> WE all know where we are in the pecking order and pack and things are much better. I did not shout or hit them in any way...I did what an Alfa female would do and keep lower pack members in order.

You really didn't.  A true alpha is calm and does not resort to physical violence to control the pack as you did (you may not have it but as rolling is extremely threatening physical behaviour, I consider it violent).  As I said earlier, the only time one dog does that to another is as a threat - I will hurt you, I will kill you.

Your girl will now be behaving because she will be worried about what happens if she doesn't - if she were to try and start anything, you will pin her to the ground in an extremely threatening, unbelievably threatening maneuvre.  And if you keep doing it, at some point she - or possibly one of your others, in her defense - will snap.  I'm not theorising - I am talking from experience.

Someone I know was very handsy with her dogs and followed the line of thought you do about pinning/rolling - I warned her many times that she would be hurt and she was.  She pinned one of her dogs simply for bouncing around his food - nothing as stressful as a fight situation - and he bit her badly.  So easily avoidable.  Her household was so awfully stressed because of her behaviour.  And someone else I know manages her dogs by harsh verbal corrections (collies so sensitive enough that she never gets to the physical stage to punish, although cues are reinforced physically); one dog barks a lot from stress and has a very hard time trusting anyone; the other is seriously aggressive and guardy with other dogs and uber submissive with people. 

And another example of pinning; years ago I joined an agility club.  There was a very sweet, tiny rescue collie, worried about a lot of things.  She took a dislike to one other collie and the feeling was mutual.  One session they got a bit too close and scrapped - no damage, all noise and display.  The trainer went to break them up and put his hand in the middle, and got caught by the wee collie accidentally.  He pinned her and shook her: immediately she started growling and baring teeth at him; she hadn't even looked at him before.  I left the club that night.

Ruling dogs with fear and physical force is a recipe for stress and injury, pure and simple.  I am honestly amazed that you have not been seriously hurt and would strongly discourage anyone, with any dog, from behaving the way you have.

Excellent post, you said exactly what I was thinking about this outdated dominance theory.
Thanks

Have nothing to add to Matifflover and Nikita other than to say great posts. :)

You need a professional immediately. Personally reading mainly your posts and not others, I believe you have probably had issues between the 2 girls all along but they have managed it between themselves, throwing a puppy into the mix has pushed it over the edge. It has caused possible possession issues as a fight happened in your presence but not the pup's so the pup cannot be the whole issue.

Personally get pup out as soon as possible as that dog will be highly likely to end up aggressive if kept in the presence of 2 fighting bitches. Take both bitches to the vet for exams to possibly include blood tests, I didn't read in your posts about when the last seasons were etc but it would all have huge bearings on it. Could have false pregnancies happening etc that needs checking out. The fact that blood is being drawn doesn't surprise me with bitches, girls are usually worse than boys with fighting as they don't like to back down. But get professional help in as soon as you can. Could even be a case of redirected aggression cause 1 can't get to the pup so attacks the nearest and dearest. Get help!!

think the op has resolved the issue already by successfully re-homing 2 of her dogs. 

I think that was a different poster with a Staffie bitch and her three year old offspring fighting.