Hi guys,

Just looking for a bit of help. I am looking to get a dog in the next few months but am finding it difficult to find the best breed to suit me. I have two lovely boxers at home with my parents but don't feel that a boxer would suit me at the moment but am finding it hard to get past them!

I would really like a breed with a loving and affectionate temperament like the boxer has, but in a slightly smaller dog. Does this exist? I am also keen that my new dog is reliable with other dogs.

Does anyone have any ideas? I know you all know your own breeds inside out so hoped you would be able to help!

Thankyou
Jennifer

All breed can be loving and affectionate Jennifer, buy from a good breeder and you should get good temperament what ever the breed - do wonder if a Staffie would suit you, have to make sure it is well socialised but you would find it hard to find a more affectionate dog.

Think beyond your requirements are the needs of the dog and what you can give in the way of a home, exercise and time, how long are you away from home at any one time, the very loving breeds can suffer a lot if left alone.

> do wonder if a Staffie would suit you

The OP wants one reliable with other dogs, staffy isn't the 1st dog that springs to mind for that!

I would suggest any of the gun dog breeds - cocker or springer spaniel?

They are ok is brought up properly, guessed she would not want a dog with a nose but you may be right. As I said more important what she can offer a dog Boxers and Spaniels are high action and it could be she is not able to deal with this perhaps we need more details before we make suggestions..

French Bulldog or Boston Terrier as similar in looks to boxers. I have never owned either of them but have friends with both breeds and they both seem charming dogs, though expensive and quite long wait for puppies..

Thanks for all of your input. I have plenty of time for a dog and my job involves visiting farms which my dog will accompany me to so he will have little time alone. I felt a boxer would not be ideal as they are rather unreliable off lead as youngsters and I do not always trust them 100% with other dogs.

I am well aware of the needs of a dog and do not have any concerns over my ability to give a good home. Was just looking for a bit of personal insight into the personalities of some other breeds.

I think spaniels are probably a good suggestion. I do prefer smooth coated dogs and have done a bit of research into staffies however do agree that they also are not always dog friendly.

Jennifer

> They are ok is brought up properly

Even the staffy owners and breeders on here say you never leave one unsupervised with another dog, that's not reliable in my book.

I agree its far more important what she can offer and choose a dog to match her lifestyle :-)

> I do prefer smooth coated dogs

What about a lab? I know they're not much smaller than boxers but they are generally good natured and biddable :-)

Another possibility is a whippet, probably the most trainable/biddable of the hounds, sweet and loving, small and smooth haired and I've never met a nasty one?

Border collie? You can get smooth coats.

Yes I thought of collie too. Generally speaking they often don't really like other dogs, but are well enough behaved/easily enough trained to ignore them :-)

Yes I thought of collie too. Generally speaking they often don't really like other dogs, but are well enough behaved/easily enough trained to ignore them :-)

Gosh! I'd have said very sociable with other dogs, but probably too active mentally and physically for someone who hasn't really thought about having one!  Collies are biddable, sociable and can come with a smooth coat.  They also come with high demands!  What about a Bavarian Mountain Hound?  Very nice dogs, smooth coats, friendly and love attention.

May I suggest visiting a rescue centre to re-home a dog that would become part of your family, they have many young dogs that you could take your 2 boxers to visit & find out if they all get on with each other and helping a homeless dog in the process...there are many boxer crossed dogs, a friend of mine had a boxer x lab who was a handsome chap and a big bundle of love! He also was a rescue....only an idea? Good luck with your choice whatever you decide.

labrador! biddable, keen to please etc...... mostly good with other dogs (except mine who is horrible :S) there is a distinct difference in my mind between the working strain and the show type. working type are slighter, leggier and livelier and much more 'worky'. I much prefer it the the shows who (and I know I'm generalising here!) tend to be more table shaped, heavier and sedate/ploddy. oh and all very happy to be lap dogs..................just a shame they weigh 30 kg. :)
I've always loved the look of boxers because I really like the look of a dog that is fit and athletic. never met one though so I don't really know what their temperament is like.
just beware that the unreliable recall in puppies isn't unique to boxers :) really all breeds need training, none of them start obedient. I would say that if you spend a lot of time in the country with them off lead that spaniels would be harder to train. they can be a bit of a bogoff dog! nose down and gone for the day.

just want to add, if you do go for a lab please be sure to make sure the parents have a decent hip score. so many people seem to think if its for a pet it doesn't matter but speaking as a pet owner who's oldest dog has sever HD it sucks for any dog! (btw, she did come from excellent parents, unless the reg was fiddled but they do say throw-backs are possible.)

What about a Cavalier king Charles Spaniel...very eager to please, very happy outgoing little dogs and they get on well with other dogs and of course people.
I wouldnt be without mine:)

There are so many that might be suitable can you give us a steer on appearance such as size, height/weight, ear, tail, nose etc; as well as whether it needs to cope with time on its own and how you might manage the puppy stages whilst working.  Some dogs really need you on hand whilst others can accept a certain amount of walkers, helpers or doggy day care.

My 'appearance' blueprint, for instance, was (and still is!) taller than a lab, lighter leaner build, ears down, nose out, tail down, wire coat.  Black nose for preference

I have a terrier type wire coated mongrel cross (a touch on the short side :) and now two Hungarian Wirehaired Vizslas (just miss out of the nose).  When I'm older I might go for a Basset Fauve de Bretagne as well (shorter but I get the nose I like and I really do like these dogs) - but I also need to ready for a hound and all that entails so I plan on owning very well fenced land!!

I know appearance isn't the be all and end all but I know in my case that there are a lot of 'types' that just wouldn't suit me, regardless of temperament or training.  I just couldn't fancy an ear-up, tail-up dog and I do like a long muzzle but no slobber :)  Thank goodness there are so many we can choose from, it wouldn't do for us all to like the same thing would it?!

Hi Jennifer, I'm glad someone else suggested spaniels and as boringly usual I will put in a word for welsh springers. You couldn't hope for a kinder, more loving and gentle breed. If you can take a dog about with you then a welsh is an ideal companion --they don't mind where they go as long as it's with you :). They are healthy as a breed, there is no differentiation between show and working lines and they are very smart with a neat line in dog humour. The only thing that's better than one welsh is more welsh! but then I am completely besotted.

>Gosh! I'd have said very sociable with other dogs,

Yes, me too. Mine are very sociable, but not demanding of other dogs.

Having only experienced working collies I'd have agreed that they at best tolerate other dogs, especially those which aren't also collies. Getting on with other dogs isn't what they were designed for.

Ive had boxers for the whole of my life and in that time have had other breeds alongside.

Lhasa mixed well, standard poodle did not - cocker did, GSDs not especially and then there were Cavaliers....perfect!!

Sporty, friendly, funny little friends. They get on great with boxers and share many jolly traits.

Downside, coats need attention -whereas I used to joke that I licked my hand and ran it down a boxers back and it was ready for the ring! :-)

Cavaliers are one breed where you need to take extra special care where you buy from and you would be mad to touch a puppy who didnt have parents that were heart,eye and MRI scanned to eliminate risk of SM.

If it were my choice using your criteria  - I would pick a Border Terrier :-)

When a friends decided they would get a dog their son wanted a Boxer, but parents wanted a smaller breed (Mum under 5 feet tall, Dad with back issues) I suggested a Boston Terrier and they found him an excellent fit for 12 years.

> I know appearance isn't the be all and end all but I know in my case that there are a lot of 'types' that just wouldn't suit me, regardless of temperament or training.  I just couldn't fancy an ear-up, tail-up dog and I do like a long muzzle but no slobber :-)  Thank goodness there are so many we can choose from, it wouldn't do for us all to like the same thing would it?!

I always say 'One Mans meat is another mans poison'  my taste is the opposite in that mine are prick eared and tails up, but I too like normal canine conformation re muzzle to skull length, and I could not have a slobbery jowly/chopsy breed either.

I also like a coat but not ones that tangle, so double coats (I can live with dog hair) of medium 'wash and wear ' length yes, long flowing feathering/coat no, smooth coats no.

That's even before typical behaviour/temperament traits.

>> Gosh! I'd have said very sociable with other dogs,
> Yes, me too. Mine are very sociable, but not demanding of other dogs.

How strange that we all have such different views :-)  I can take my collies anywhere, they never bother with strange dogs and if one comes up to them they will sniff and walk on but they don't like them in the way that say labs do. No collie that I or my family have owned would seek out dogs outwith the pack to play with. Yes, they have all tolerate them but not like. My dogs play together but the youngest (silken windhound) also loves to run with strange dogs once she's sure they're friendly. My collies will run with a strange dog if it's chasing a ball because they want the ball, but they don't want to play with the strange dog.

Do your collies actually play with strange dogs they meet on a walk?

Mind you mine are usually too busy walking backwards in front of me willing me to fling their ball to notice other dogs most of the time.

none of my collies have been overfriendly with other dogs either,standoffish at best,snappy at worst.they all improved with age and training,though,i find it sad as id love super friendly dogs you could rely on to not give an embarrasing snap!its probably something ive done wrong as i know loads of collies of both sexes who are friendly!The pup,gwen,7months seems unconcerned by other dogs,long may it last!

My dogs are working line through and through, all but one wont seek out other dogs to play with but if a dog approaches them and if it wants to play then they happily oblige. I have one that seeks out others to greet and thinks every dog on this planet wants to play with her and every person fuss her. She was a nightmare for bogging off when younger but no longer does this.
My over friendly girl is not typical of the breed, but i have to say, all my experience with collies and i have never owned an anti social one. Even my entire male happily plays with other entires of different breeds.

How about a pug?  Great companions, wonderful with people and dogs, small enough to take almost everywhere but study enough to be safe visiting farms (I know several pugs who live on farms, stables etc) not given to chasing livestock (too self involved possibly?), a face which often appeals ot people who have had Boxers, mastiffs etc.

Please read the thread entitled 'Muzzles' to see how some other people fair with their collies.

Ive found the vast majority ( border collies) to be aloof and totally fixed on the prop the owners have used to control them ie ball or toy. Left to their own ( unfocused ) devices they can be sharp but all this, of course, depends on each individual dog.I find that they exist amongst other dogs without seeming to entirely interact with them.
Just my opinion of course based on 30 odd years of taking dog training classes :-)

Found this an interesting thread hearing what people like visually in a dog. I have never really thought about it that way but certainly the breeds I lkie do seem to have a certain look in common well maybe not the ears  having got an  fcr and gsd 
Dogs a babe you made me laugh how you described your likes and dislikes , mind I gave myself a pat on the back thinking a wirehaired vizula or wirehaired pointer may be you choice.

We have 3 Boxers as well as other 'flavour' dogs. Mixed well with GSDs, terriers ( Patts) Labs, Cockers, but not with my GR, but that was a dominance thing with lots of fights so he had to be rehomed ( broken heart time ) Most Boxers mix with other dogs

Yes I agree, my collies are fine with other dogs, other breeds etc  I do agility so see A LOT of collies and most of them are fine.  You do, like with any other breed, get the odd one who isn't sociable and who doesn't tolerate other dogs, but usually it's either poor breeding, a lack of socialisation or poor training.  One of mine is perhaps more 'picky' than the others, but he adores playing with my shelties and also the older GSD.  My dogs are usually self contained with their own family - but most of them are more than happy to play with other dogs, other breeds.  The shelties are the most 'breedist' of dogs I know - generally seeking out their own breed to be sociable with!  My GSDs are very sociable, again this is like the collies down to breeding, socialising and training. 

However, I would never suggest a 'high maintenance' dog like a collie (or a shep) to someone who wasn't passionate about having one, and would try and put off most people as in the wrong hands they aren't good!  Mostly those who turn up with poor temperament collies aren't the right hands :-(

I think a good idea would be to visit discover dogs and find out about different breeds that take you eye and then make a decision - or visit a dog shelter and see if there's anything there that you like and you can find out about.

Yes, i entirely agree, there are alot of not so easy ones that tend to be in pet homes with people that have no real idea of what dog they have got.
Too many people with collies encourage them to become fixated on a toy when out, therefore the dogs whole life revolves around this toy and nothing is more important. Dogs need to be dogs and that includes early socialisation as i find alot of collies miss out on this due to being fixated on the toy/item from a young age so therefore not interacting with other dogs.

Oh, and the 'muzzles' thread is not really breed specific, the dog has been ill and has developed issues form there. Hardly just a collie thing.

Drover the collies I'm talking about are mostly in working homes, doing agility or obedience and a lot of them at high level and the working ones owned by farmer friends :-) As Penny says "My dogs are usually self contained with their own family" that is my experience of collies. I'm not talking about them being nasty, personally I've never owned a nasty one. My point was that collies, unlike say labs or spaniels, don't normally seek out other dogs to play with. I was talking about them not liking other dogs in that sense. If yours do that's great, but it's not the norm among the probably hundreds of collies I know. My lot have just been racing round the garden, playing chases round the flower tubs, so they do play like other dogs but with their own pack. Anyway, this has now drifted way off topic - sorry mods.

It depends how much time and effort you put into training and socialising any dog (regardless of breed).

I've known some very well behaved and socialised Boxers at a young age.
I've also known some that haven't been socialised/trained particularly well and yes these don't tend to have 100% reliability.

Alot of Boxer people that show have gone into Frenchies & Bostons with the odd smattering of Bulldogs.

What about a Nova Scotia Duck Toller?

I must admit I really quite like Bostons, I have a friend that breeds them and they are lovely little characters, would they be too small for you BoxerLolly?

As Penny says "My dogs are usually self contained with their own family" that is my experience of collies. I'm not talking about them being nasty, personally I've never owned a nasty one. My point was that collies, unlike say labs or spaniels, don't normally seek out other dogs to play with. I was talking about them not liking other dogs in that sense.

Sorry this wasn't my meaning at all!  Because I have a large number of dogs I tend to walk them without joining in with other people... at shows they join in very well with other dogs, especially but not exclusively with dogs they know, but that's how I like to walk them.  My dogs are very sociable and will choose to play with all sorts and breeds... most of mine would prefer to play with other dogs although I generally keep them playing with each other - my choice not theirs!  It's generally, but not exclusively, how you bring them up.  I find as a breed that they're very sociable - when I took one to do some sheep dog experience work he wanted to play with the sheep!  You wouldn't think his sire was a working dog on a big estate!  However, I wouldn't recommend them as a 'pet' dog unless they were going to be doing something!  Rarely matters what, but they need to be kept mentally engaged.

What about a Nova Scotia Duck Toller?

Not a dog for the fainthearted!  They can be a bit dodgy temperament wise, are very difficult to get hold of and also very noisy!  Only a limited number registered each year.  They do very well at agility - there are now at least 2 'large' dogs (ie competing in large) at G6 which is great, in 'medium' they've done very well for a number of years at the highest levels.  Watch they're tested for CEA (collie eye), HD etc

> there are alot of not so easy ones that tend to be in pet homes with people that have no real idea of what dog they have got.
> Too many people with collies encourage them to become fixated on a toy when out, therefore the dogs whole life revolves around this toy and nothing is more important.

I have to reply to this again because it's annoying me, and I know it's off topic and I should let it drop - I will after this honest :-)

Frankly I find your suggestion that people who have no idea about collies encourage them to become fixated on a toy offensive and untrue. I can give you two examples (there are many, many more but I'll stick with these two), and I'm happy to supply names via pm (so you can verify their credentials), of people who are at the top of their game - one in obedience and the other agility. Both work at championship level, both have owned collies for decades and both are also very well respected trainers. I've seen their collies out on a walk and they are completely fixated on their handler and their toys. Collies are naturally obsessive by nature and it is sensible for the owner to choose what the collie obsesses about or they find their own entertainment :-)

I used to walk regularly with one of these people, a well respected obedience handler/trainer and I'll never forget the day a young lab came bounding across the field all excited about meeting other dogs. My friend collies never even noticed it, apart from when it blocked their view of their owner when they showed mild annoyance trying to look round it. The lab was bouncing around all over the place, play bowing and woofing and the collies rarely even glanced at it. 3 of them were retired, 2 from champ C, 2 were currently working Champ C and one in A and B. I would say these dogs didn't like other dogs, and that certainly wasn't down to poor breeding, socialisation or lack of training - quite the opposite :-)

Sorry but this is what happens when people often at the 'top of their game' take a collie and allow it to focus solely on them - for them this is what they want, but it's not necessarily in the best interest of the dog and it's not necessarily in the nature of the dog.  It's how it's brought up.  I've seen this in extremes with people in agility - unfortunately.

My dogs are all toy obsessed, but i do not allow them to be continually fixated on the toy all the time(I dont believe this to be healthy), they have plenty of time when they are allowed just to be dogs. I dont believe this to be healthy.
It has worked perfectly well for me and i would say my dogs have been pretty successful ;)

> Sorry but this is what happens when people often at the 'top of their game' take a collie and allow it to focus solely on them - for them this is what they want, but it's not necessarily in the best interest of the dog and it's not necessarily in the nature of the dog.  It's how it's brought up.  I've seen this in extremes with people in agility - unfortunately.

I disagree with this as our first dog as a married couple was a border collie - farm bred - she was completely fixated on stones and would stand and stare at a stone for hours until you kicked it for her to chase - even in the dark. Nothing we trained her to do, I'm sure one day we happened to kick a stone on the road by accident and she was immediately obsessed. I think border collies have a bit of OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder not osteochondrosis :-) ) about them and they have an inbuilt need to fixate on something - this is what makes them so good at the work they do! My Gordon is the same when it comes to birds - she is determined to chase every wee bird out of my garden and the poor soul is fighting a losing battle, she is also obsessed by my cats and will not settle when they are in the room with her - she constantly looks to see what they are doing. All breeds have their own traits - good and bad - you just have to love the good ones and learn to live with the bad and if you can't then that's not the breed for you IMHO. :-) . I've never found collies to be a particularly sociable breed either, they are not the first breed that comes to mind when thinking of dog-friendly dogs although I don't think they are particularly unfriendly - just aloof ;-)

They can have, although often if you stop them early enough and focus them on something else then they get out of it.  Often - sorry to say - it's a lack of alternatives for them to focus their brain on that 'forces' them to do this, which is why collies aren't a dog for all.  Actually the only dog I've had to fixate on anything was a dog I got from the Dogs Trust - a Rhodesian Ridgeback/Whippet etc cross who I got at 10months old who was fixated on what we called 'tinkerbelles' - lights reflected from watches etc... I didn't let her spend as much time as she'd like doing this and I'd get very cross with people who thought it was funny to watch her so they'd produce them for her - briefly as I'd stop them.  It isn't necessarily a trait of the border collie as a breed, but of intelligent dogs with little to focus their minds on....

the point I was making is that certain people will 'train' their dogs - intentionally or not - to do certain things because it suits them to have a dog like this.  My collies are in general very social - we meet a lot of collies and they, like many breeds, cover a spectrum of and it does all depend how you bring them up and the breeding behind them.  One of mine goes stupid over huskies as he knew them as a pup, another adored GSDs, however it's irrelevant as the OP isn't looking, thankfully, at a collie! 

sorry to continue off topic......

My brothers WSD when we were kids was obsessed with water. It got worse/stronger when she got older (also she moved out with him so had more free time outside of her kennel I suppose) She would stare for hours at an thawing icicle whilst it dripped, eye the stream, puddles etc. She would watch the washing machine through a full cycle and once when I was walking her around their fields I lost her, when found she was by an old building, staring up at the grubby window convinced it was a puddle on the wall......................................she would frequently have to be physically removed with her lead to break her fixation.

> >What about a Nova Scotia Duck Toller? <br /><br />Not a dog for the fainthearted!  They can be a bit dodgy temperament wise, are very difficult to get hold of and also very noisy!  Only a limited number registered each year.  They do very well at agility - there are now at least 2 'large' dogs (ie competing in large) at G6 which is great, in 'medium' they've done very well for a number of years at the highest levels.  Watch they're tested for CEA (collie eye), HD etc

They certainly shouldn't be dodgy temperament wise, although they are very difficult to get hold of and some can be noisy. Far easier to live with than a collie and I've owned both! Again it's all down to breeding.
Interesting in that all 3 of mine have been bitten by collies at various times at agility shows and they haven't retaliated, in one case my dog's nose was very badly bitten and blood was drawn, he just looked very offended. I didn't report it as my only description was 'it was a black and white collie'!!

Interesting as I know a few who have been very dodgy! I know a couple of people who wouldn't have another breed, but others who'd never have another toller and have switched to collies!  They have many similarities (being closely related) to collies and suffer from CEA.  They are very noisy and they can be difficult to live with - according to my friends with them.  I have a collie who does that, in fact when other dogs (including tollers) snap at his nose, he just says 'oh maybe later when you're in a better mood' ;-)  They're not a dog simply to jump in and buy, you need to find out if they're the right breed, just as collies are :-)

My friends with 4 tollers, all male, one has a dodgy temperament and 3 have lovely temperaments - it's remembering which is which!  Another friend who used to breed them had a female with a decidedly dodgy temperament - even 'going for' my GSD, she also looked upset but didn't retaliate!  Her dogs were fine though, it was just the bitch! 

Agree with everything penny has said about collies. They only become fixated generally because a)they are allowed to and b) they dont have anything better offered in their lives.
My collies are very well balanced, they dont become fixated on things and neither do my firends collies (and i have alot of friends with collies ;) ) but then maybe that is because we all work ours so they dont feel the need mentally to find something else to do.

With regard to NSDTR... I know quite a few with less than ideal temperaments. Glad to hear it is not typical of the breed.

You could always get a rescue Staffie, if you go to one of the specialist rescues, or one of the better re-homing centres it would be possible to get a dog friendly one, they do exist.

Just another thought I met a young soft coat wheaten yesterday, the owners first dog they found him lovely very family orientated reasonable size etc.
I know very little about them but maybe worth investigating

> My friends with 4 tollers, all male, one has a dodgy temperament and 3 have lovely temperaments - it's remembering which is which!  Another friend who used to breed them had a female with a decidedly dodgy temperament - even 'going for' my GSD, she also looked upset but didn't retaliate!  Her dogs were fine though, it was just the bitch!

I know who you mean with 4, the oldest has to be watched but apparently was ok until he was attacked as a youngster - by a collie I believe! He hates my male with a passion and mine just tries to get away from him. There is also another bitch on the agility circuit who mine are all terrified of! I can't think who the other you mention might be as I can't think of anyone with one bitch and several dogs.

Certainly mine all have good temperaments and I don't think they're unusual.

As with any breed there will be the odd one that isn't typical, but most should have the typical friendly gundog temperament. The reason I switched from collies to tollers was temperament so it's interesting that some have gone the other way.

They certainly shouldn't 'suffer' from CEA - since there are DNA tests for both PRA and CEA then no affecteds should be bred and I don't know of any actually affected with CEA in this country (there are a few carriers being bred to clears).

I think with any breed it comes down to breeding - there are a few breeders in the country just breeding to produce puppies without thought of health or temperament.

They certainly shouldn't 'suffer' from CEA - since there are DNA tests for both PRA and CEA then no affecteds should be bred and I don't know of any actually affected with CEA in this country (there are a few carriers being bred to clears).

They 'suffer' from CEA the same way that collies and lancashire heelers do ... ie they can get it if not tested and those tests not used wisely!  It was an indication to ensure parents are clear rather than an accusation ;-)  Actually collies rarely 'suffer' from CEA even if affected :-)  The main breed with CEA issues is of course rough/smooth collies.

I wouldn't wish you to identify any toller owners I may or may not know, the people I'm thinking of the worrying one isn't the eldest ;-)