Responsible breeders would surely have considered the possibility of being left with unsold pups before they breed.Can they really be considered responsible if the end result is healthy pups being pup to sleep.I would suggest otherwise.

> The harder option to take is the decision that the puppies they bred will not be handed out to anyone who will take them off their hands nor will they end up fearful, aggressive or totally out of control due to the near impossibility of being able to correctly socialise and train a whole litter of pups and ensure they grow into well balanced, well trained happy adults. As awful as seems it can be kinder to make the decision to PTS in order to ensure the puppies will not become yet another addition to the endless number of dogs who spend their life in and out of rescues. As I have said many times before there are things far worse than death.
>
>

Such a sensible post, thank you.

Sentimentalists would have the 'breeder' keep them all alive to face their fate......they cant come up with a solution...there probably isnt one!

This 'breeder' is patently NOT responsible with her actions in this case.

Sentimentalists would have the 'breeder' keep them all alive to face their fate......they cant come up with a solution...there probably isnt one!

This thread clearly shows the difference between those who have learned their craft and knowledge from old fashioned breeders who 'thought dog', knew what they were doing and  what is in the dogs best interest as opposed to pet owners who emotionally put human feelings on to dogs.

The breeders of the last generation knew their dogs and their breed inside out, unlike these days, when anyone who owns a bitch thinks it's their right to produce puppies.  The old breeders understood that pedigrees were just a collection of names unless they actually knew the dogs on there.  They also knew what dogs need and that's NOT a fluffy bed and a soft toy to compensate for a lack of physical and mental stimulation and training.

One reason that I rarely post here these days is because I struggle to restrain myself when I read posts from ignorant puppy producers asking basic questions and stating "Well we all have to start somewhere"! :( :( :(

Oh how I would love to go back to the situation when dogs were bred by breeders who had learned their skill and knowledge from an experienced mentor.  In my dreams eh? :(

> Hi theemx I suggest not putting a healthy pup to sleep.

We got that bit :).  What people are asking you is, what do you suggest is the alternative bareing in mind all the probable outcomes here? 

>and there is a huge difference between a suitable home and any old home-

Very important observation.  Last year when I bred a litter in early June, I had a small list of people interested.  It's no good having really long lists with the size of my litters.  Two people backed out, due to hubbies redundancies.

By the time the pups were ready to leave home, I resorted to advertising.  I had people wanting them that knew nothing about the breed, and had not even researched the breed.  Full time workers are not an option, as companion breeds are just that.  I didn't have anyone apply that was worthy of my puppies.  I cancelled adverts and decided I would sit tight.  Ok, I admit that 9 of mine could easily get in one of the Collie beds, so space was not a problem.  And, only being 2 pups, socialisation was no problem.

At 9 months, I had a phone call from people who had had a pup from me a couple of years ago, and were looking for another.  Lady works part time, hubby is home all day.  My original boy that went to them was happily living with a Tibbie and a Chihuahua Smooth Coat, and this couple always kept boys.  As they were so perfect I did sell at a cheaper price, but this was my decision, not because they asked for a free or cheap dog.  I have had lovely photos from them, and it is great to see how easily this tiny lad has settled in.  I must add that, due to size, I could have easily sold him as a handbag dog.  One of the reasons that I only sell to older people!

The girl stayed with me.  But, although I've had girls in season, I have not bred a litter since, and won't in the current climate.  Being able to sell a pup, and being able to sell a pup to the right people, are two different things.  Harvey and Carrington are right.

>Responsible breeders would surely have considered the possibility of being left with unsold pups before they breed.

Absolutely right. Nobody should breed a litter without considering the possibility that they might not all find suitable homes, and will have considered every eventuality. Of course, in the 4 or 5 months from mating to homing, many things can change.

>Can they really be considered responsible if the end result is healthy pups being pup to sleep.

Yes. That's far more responsible than dumping them, giving them away, sentimentally keeping them without being able to look after them properly.

>I would suggest otherwise.

You still haven't provided a better alternative, given several rapidly-growing and developing pups, approaching adolescence.

That is the case with every litter I breed I do not assume they will all be homed by 8 - 12 weeks, and that I may have one or two around longer if I have a larger or very sex biased litter, as I generally do not like to take firm vetted bookings for more than 3 of each sex (any others will be told that I will bear them in mind but prefer to pass them onto another breeders waiting list) with the breed litter average is 6.

I have nearly always had a puppy up to about 12 - 16 weeks for one reason or another (usually because new owners have a holiday booked or export timetable), though I have been lucky enough not to have any actually with no home in sight past 12 weeks.

I don't think I could face having a numerically small breed with huge litters.  I know a breeder with such a breed who breeds once every four or five litters to keep the line going and only keeps the number of pups they have firm bookings for and has the rest euathanised at birth  which many find unacceptable, but far better this than un-homeable pups, and it is most responsible of them to not be prepared to pass the buck.  This is a  large sensitive breed that requires a lot of individual attention.  It is also a breed that could easily sell (and later be discarded) to the wrong type of owner, but has very low demand with the right kind..

I dont know the breed in question but say it is a Boerboel or Tibetan Mastiff litter of 8.

If this litter continues to attract no buyers then is anyone really suggesting dropping the price or giving away free to any takers since no lovers of the breed can be found?

Like a young girlfriend and boyfriend for example, in a flat with a little baby. They'd like a nice doggie for the baby and have never heard of the breeds in question - but the pups sure look cute....... :-(

Really?

My own niece (21) living with boyfriend and newborn baby in a first floor flat, took on a 10 months old pit bull bitch.

My son who visits them lots was really worried about her fear aggressive behaviour with baby becoming mobile soon.

The boyfriend hit the dog if it growled!!!

I gave my son details of classes to go to, books to read, like throwing pebbles on a wall!!!

Well the problem is gone now, someone reported them fro having an illegal dog and it was taken and destroyed.  This time only the dog paying the price of human ego and stupidity.

> Yes but the vet would have nothing to put to sleep unless a 'responsible breeder' requests this service.

I am another person lining up with Harley Carrington and heartily agree with Shaynlola's post that PTS is not the worst fate for a puppy!

You have been uber-critical Celtic Lad - what would you suggest that can practically be done in a situation where a breeder has a large litter of large breed dogs and no buyers when the puppies are 12+ weeks?

Of course no responsible breeder wishes to be in this situation -but as has been explained to you in quite some detail, in the present economic climate where redundancies are commonplace and marriage breakups also, a waiting list for puppies puppies, carefully constructed before a mating takes place, can change out of all recognititioni in the 12-15 weeks from conception to arrangning first home-visits.  Of course responsible breeders do take every step possible to ensure that the remaining puppies are well-socialised - Goldmali's posts testify to that.   But these things do happen.    And if I were in that terrible situation of being left with say 6 or 7 adolescent puppies of 8 to 9 months old, with very little prospect of finding them GOOD permanent homes, then I would take the heart-breaking step of deciding which should be euthanised.    What would be the alternative?  

Well, let's say hypothetically, that it has happened to me, and I've left with - shall we say five - large breed (let's say mastiffs) puppies.  We'll say that three are males, two are females.   I also own the mother - and we'll say a daughter from a previous litter, and a son, also from a previous litter - and that I show all three.   I had intended to keep one puppy - another male, also for showing.   So my budget would allow me to keep 4 large dogs.   But I now have 9 large dogs - consisting of 4 males and 5 females.    My own circumstances have changed and I now live on my own - previously I had a partner.   I also need to work full-time in order to be able afford to keep myself and my now 9 dogs.   So how do you suggest that I do the best for all these dogs?

I repeat - this particular scenario is a hypothetical one - it does not exist outside the internet - BUT IT COULD!   How would you deal with it, Celtic Lad, if you found yourself in this situation?    Let the pups go to anyone?   Stand at the end of the road with a "free to good home" sign around puppies' necks?   Let them stay where they were reared, and allow them to turn into one of the horrendous stories that we read about good breeders/exhibitors who descend into kennels of shame?

I know what I would do.   After long discussions with vets, other breeders, I would have to take the decision as to which of the five took a one-way trip to the vets - at least I would know that they had had a short, but loved life - and I would know that I had done the most loving, most responsible thing that I could have done in a truly heart-breaking situation.   And yes, as someone else said, I could never, ever, breed another litter again.  

> I know a breeder with such a breed who breeds once every four or five litters to keep the line going and only keeps the number of pups they have firm bookings for and has the rest euathanised at birth

I thought the Kennel Club didn't allow this now?

> Responsible breeders would surely have considered the possibility of being left with unsold pups before they breed.Can they really be considered responsible if the end result is healthy pups being pup to sleep.I would suggest otherwise

Responsible breeders on the whole have a waiting list before mating... I know of 2 people who have had a full waiting list, and have had ALL of those prospective owner fade away for one reason or another. 

I have 3 14weeks old pups her at the moment, and it is exhausting, leaving me little time for my adult dogs, thankfully, 2 of the pups I am keeping, the other one has a home to go to, just not for another 2 weeks yet.  and I am counting the days.  I need to spend time with my own dogs, and the 2 youngsters while stopping them bonding with each other.  I cannot imagine how this would be if I had a another couple of the litter to deal with.  3 pups alone are full time work and then some.  I am one of the lucky ones,

>healthy pups being pup to sleep.I would suggest otherwise

Celtic Lad, we are all still waiting to hear your suggestions!

would it be responsible to dump them on the rescue doorstep?
would it be responsible to take them down to the local pub and barter?
would it be responsible to sell them cheaply to the 1st person who asked?
would it even be responsible to keep them all and gradually allow them to turn feral?

The responsible thing is to do what is BEST for the pup/dog.   in all cases, that is none of the above :-(

> I agree with Harley and Carrington.

> PTS is not the worst fate that can befall a dog. 

Definitely agree

> I thought the Kennel Club didn't allow this now?

You are quite right, and I admit I haven't spoken to this breeder on this issue since that was added to the KC's code of ethics.  Don't think they have bred since then.

As a fairly new person on these boards I have found that there are always people preaching about contracts for buyers and that any responsible breeder should be both capable and willing to take back any pups that need it so why does this thought not cover un-homed pups?
There is also alot said about waiting lists which surely any 'responsible breeder' would have in place in which case no such person should ever have to consider such an awful thing.
I just cannot understand why any such breeder would even consider such a thing, the argument about kennels etc. PTS a healthy dog is very very different as the kennel did not choose to produce the dogs to start with, when the choice is made then it should be carried through and as someone said to me on here a little while ago (the minute shed loads realised I was new and decided to pick fault in everything I said and did) 'when you make the decision to breed a litter then they are your responsiblity for the rest of their lives' not at any point did they say until you can't deal with them any more or they don't fit into your life.
I would rather give a puppie to someone (who I knew and trusted) who couldn't neccesarily afford the price tag and ensure they lived a long happy life than end their life so brutally.

As a fairly new person on these boards I have found that there are always people preaching about contracts for buyers and that any responsible breeder should be both capable and willing to take back any pups that need it so why does this thought not cover un-homed pups?

Because it comes down to quality of life for the pups -there is a HUGE difference between taking back an adult dog you've bred, and having to keep say 5-6 pups that each need to be trained, walked etc INDIVIDUALLY to enable them to turn into normal dogs. There simply are not enough hours in the day to do it even if you do nothing else. I have no less than 4 sets of littermates here, just TWO from each litter, so I know very well indeed what it takes to properly bring up pups from the same litter. Fair enough if they are very small and very easy going breeds, but anything else -it's extremely hard work.

Littermates set 1: Arnie and Matilda, now 9 years old. It was the first time I'd had littermates, as in all the other cases it was not by choice -keeping the last pup that didn't sell. I took them to training classes individually but I walked them together -big mistake. Even at this age they are far too close to each other and cannot easily be walked together. Let them off lead together and everything but each other cease to exist. Arnue even got injured once when the pair raced off together (littermates will always compete) and he wasn't able to stop. On their own, they are very obedient and listen to you, together, all that is forgotten.

Littermates set 2: Rio and Z. 5. Absolutely no hassle at all. Why? Because I only kept Rio, her brother Z was returned to me aged 18 months so they grew up apart.

Littermates set 3: Roxie and Rocco. 3. Nightmare. We spent a lot lot LOT of time walking and training them separately, but it still wasn't enough. Last time we made the huge mistake of taking them out together we nearly lost the pair of them in the woods as again they forget eveyrhtign but each other. Far, far too attached to each other, not attached to people. Cannot be walked together, cannot go to training classes together. Not happy when split up even temporarily as they are so close. Even run away from us at home when they see collar and lead as it means a walk and a walk means being split up! Before Rocco was castrated it was awful when Roxie came into season and they had to be split up as they were utterly distraught at having to be kept apart for 3 weeks.

Littermates 4: Dot and Fame. 8 months. Cracked it at last! Get on fine but just as with single pups, us people matter far more to them than each other, they are very happy to go out separately, don't miss each other etc. But it's taken more work than I could ever have imagined. In a typical week we go to THREE different training classes to ensure each one gets enough done without the other. Had there been a third pup, a fourth, maybe even a fifth -these would then have been utterly wild. (And I have seen this happen -like somebody else said, such pups can turn feral. Compare it to birds: if you have one single bird you can tame it. If you have several, they need to live in an aviary as wild as you cannot tame them all together.)

There is also alot said about waiting lists which surely any 'responsible breeder' would have in place in which case no such person should ever have to consider such an awful thing.

Did you not read my post somewhere above where I told the story of how I had 12 people on my waiting list and no less than 11 then dropped out? With the best will in the world I could not have foreseen that happening.

I would rather give a puppie to someone (who I knew and trusted) who couldn't neccesarily afford the price tag and ensure they lived a long happy life than end their life so brutally.

Fully agree with you there as long as it is somebody I ALREADY know and trust -unfortunately you cannot trust strangers as when there is the possibility of a free pup some people tend to lie abut their circumstances etc.

> I would rather give a puppie to someone (who I knew and trusted)

And do you know 8 such trusted friends who would want a large rare breed puppy...even for free?

Goldmali, not wanting to change the subject but if you had to keep an unsold pup from your first litter, how did you then breed lots more litters? im assuming you breed them for show? if i had one unsold pup i dont think id have the nerve to do it again!

no I do not know 8 such trusted friends but I will be totally honest I would keep those I could not home for as long as I had to, I would never consider PTS a healthy pup that I chose to give life and imo anyone who does should be ashamed of themselves!

Goldmali, not wanting to change the subject but if you had to keep an unsold pup from your first litter, how did you then breed lots more litters?

That first litter was an accident; they are crossbreeds so not comparable in any way. The first and second planned pedigree litters I had no problem finding homes for and only kept one pup from each.

no I do not know 8 such trusted friends but I will be totally honest I would keep those I could not home for as long as I had to, I would never consider PTS a healthy pup that I chose to give life and imo anyone who does should be ashamed of themselves!

That's akin to saying you can't bear to put a terminally ill and suffering animal to sleep because it's so awfully sad. The animals' wellbeing (physical AND mental) has to come BEFORE human emotions. I don't know anyone who has ever had pups put to sleep because they couldn't sell them, because when a situation like that occurs, the responsible do absolutely everything they can to find homes, GOOD homes. But if somebody I knew had to do it as a last resort, then I'd think more highly of them for that than for trying to rear several large breed pups. Obviously I'd also expect them never to breed again.

> As a fairly new person on these boards I have found that there are always people preaching about contracts for buyers and that any responsible breeder should be both capable and willing to take back any pups that need it so why does this thought not cover un-homed pups?
> There is also alot said about waiting lists which surely any 'responsible breeder' would have in place in which case no such person should ever have to consider such an awful thing.
> I just cannot understand why any such breeder would even consider such a thing, the argument about kennels etc. PTS a healthy dog is very very different as the kennel did not choose to produce the dogs to start with, when the choice is made then it should be carried through and as someone said to me on here a little while ago (the minute shed loads realised I was new and decided to pick fault in everything I said and did) 'when you make the decision to breed a litter then they are your responsiblity for the rest of their lives' not at any point did they say until you can't deal with them any more or they don't fit into your life.
> I would rather give a puppie to someone (who I knew and trusted) who couldn't neccesarily afford the price tag and ensure they lived a long happy life than end their life so brutally.

If, in the hypothetical situation I described a few posts ago, I knew and trusted people who would ensure that puppies could live a long happy life - then the price would not come into the equation.    But if I could not find enough trusted people to ensure the long happy lives that we all want for our puppies then personally I would take the dreadful, awful, step of ensuring a gentle death.   Better a gentle death, in the arms of the person who had reared them, than a life full of being passed from one to another, of no real quality.

GOOD homes is exactly what I was getting at, earlier comments on this post were to not reduce price and people being unable to cope with the care of certain puppies but the point is that just because someone can't afford the initial outlay for the puppy it does not mean that they cannot keep the dog happy and healthy in fact if you think that someone may be a carer so gets very little money and couldn't afford a dog but is at home all day every day then surely that would be a fantastic solution.

To compare a healthy young pup to a terminally ill dog is absolutely ridiculous! I have had to pts several of my elderly pets and I do not agree with dragging it out for them but a young healthy dog is a different matter completely.

I did make the comment earlier in this post about never breeding again if you can't find buyers so with that I agree.

Human emotion has very little to do with my comment It is about taking responsibility for your own actions, you do not make a life to take it away because it no longer suits or is not convenient.

It does not matter how many people comment I am never going to agree with pts a fit, young, healthy pup. I currently have a 5 week old litter and was approached by a (so called) responsible local breeder who asked why I had a white one, my reply was that you can't choose the colour before they are born, she then came back with oh we drown all whites at birth but when I asked why it's because they are not worth as much can be prone to deafness and you can't show them. So if that is the way some of the best breeders (which I have to say this lasy is highly accredited) do it then they are welcome to their horrific breeding system.

I can and will always be able to sleep well at night knowing I've never hurt an innocent, fit animal so that my life was easier.

> I can and will always be able to sleep well at night knowing I've never hurt an innocent, fit animal so that my life was easier.

You can hurt an innocent fit animal by not keeping it in the manner in which it should be kept!    As Goldmali has explained, littermates will bond with each other and unless you can separate them, they will become a pack - and yes, its all very well, having a pack of puppies when you are young and healthy ....but think 10 years down the line .....if you are no longer so fit and healthy, but your pack of fit dogs are still healthy - how are YOU going to be able to control them?   How would anyone else be able to approach you?

As you say, you have to take responsibility for your actions - it is the action of the breeder who has prompted the existance of the dogs.   It is the responsibility of the breeder to ensure that all pups are placed in the best possible homes where they will receive love and training commensurate with the breed.   You only have to read some of the posts on here at the moment about people worrying about their dogs fighting between each other - it can, and does happen.   

I trust that you are never placed in the position of having to eat your words.

Judge not that you be not judged!

>Human emotion has very little to do with my comment It is about taking responsibility for your own actions, you do not make a life to take it away because it no longer suits or is not convenient.

It is the ultimate in responsibility to recognise when an animal's life is such that it is becoming impossible to live in today's ultra-critical society, where dogs have to be perfectly-behaved in public. One can either keep the animal in isolation for its own safety for 15 years, or one can prevent that long drawn incarceration which is mere existence, and not life.

To compare a healthy young pup to a terminally ill dog is absolutely ridiculous! I have had to pts several of my elderly pets and I do not agree with dragging it out for them but a young healthy dog is a different matter completely.

So then your opinion would also be that the ONLY type of suffering for a dog is physical, and never mental? Basically dogs have no emotional feelings?

No I agreed that mental suffering is terrible and I would never put any animal in a situation where I believe that would occur but you are all very black and white on this as you are on most things. My original point is that I would give them to trusted friends and someone said do I have 8 of those I replied with no I don't have 8 but I do have 4 possibly 5 people who would help to look after a dog for life! So that wouldn't leave me with 8 would it.

If I did not have a safety net in place then I would NOT breed and neither should anyone else!

oh and how many litter mates do you think it takes before pack mentality sets in?

I would never consider PTS a healthy pup that I chose to give life and imo anyone who does should be ashamed of themselves!
Thing is none of these breeders are talking about a single pup, of course a single pup would be kept, loved and raised as if the breeder planned to keep it all along.  No, these breeders are referring to 5, 6, 7, or 8 littermates at a time.  Puppies that may be prefectly healthy at 8-12 weeks old but by them time they are 12 months they will be a feral PACK of dogs.  Dogs that have not bonded to humans and do not know how to bond with people.  Dogs that cannot be walked because they are uncontrollable.  Dogs that cannot be trained because they have no desire to please people because they don't have that human bond.  Dogs that will have to be kept in specially built accommodation because they will run havoc through any house ddestroying it in the process. Dogs that cannot operate in any acceptable manner in our society today.  Dogs that if a behaviourist saw without knowing their history would be deemed mentally unstable and so NOT HEALTHY.  I can't see how perpetuating that could be seen to be in the dogs benefit in any way shape or form.  By not putting those puppies to sleep when they are weeks old you are not saving their life.  You are delaying the inevitable (PTS) and in the meantime you are unable to provide for their needs (regular walks for one are a complete impossibility) and sending them further and further down the path of insanity. 

I am not a breeder, but I can see that in the extraordinary cases given above these breeders really would do the best they could for their dogs, even if that means taking the hardest of steps.  After all these dogs are their family that they devoted months of their life caring for and years of their life planning for, including drawing up the waiting list that disintergrated on them with no warning.  One day I would like to breed dogs and when that happens I would hope to consider the breeders replying to this post to be my peers and to earn their respect.

You only need two or three before pack mentality sets in!  After all, the primeval initial bond is with litter mates - and it will only strengthen unless great care is taken to keep littermates separate as far as possible - and it is very hard work to ensure that the bond with the owner is the strongest bond.

>you are all very black and white on this as you are on most things.

Do you mean the people who aren't ruling out every possible course of action, however undesirable that might be? Surely that's the absolute epitome of seeing shades of grey as well.

>My original point is that I would give them to trusted friends

What if you don't have 8 (or 2, or 3, or 4) trusted friends who actually want a puppy right now?

>how many litter mates do you think it takes before pack mentality sets in?

In some breeds particularly, only two, unless you're very careful to keep them separate from each other for a lot of the time. If you keep (or buy) two puppies they need to spend 15 minutes apart from each other and interacting with a human for every 5 minutes they spend together. They really need to be kept as individuals for most of the time, with only short periods together, if they're to develop their full potential as domestic companions.

reply to nicki - "when you make the decision to breed a litter then they are your responsiblity for the rest of their lives"

Exactly. However long that may be. The buck stops with the breeder who is responsible enough to ensure that the pup(s) do not go to unsuitable home(s), even if it means the option of PTS, and I agree that there are worse fates for a dog than that. Putting a puppy to sleep or any other animal for that matter is not 'brutal'. I've been with every single dog I've owned at the end and it has always been calm and peaceful. I would wish the same for myself.

Only yesterday I heard of a person who had a litter of 13 large breed pups. Still got 9 left + her other 3 dogs in a 2 up 2 down house. How the heck will they all get socialised/trained/housetrained/groomed (massive coats) individually and kept seperate when the bitches come in season? If they did end up in unsuitable homes and she was asked to have an adult male back it just wouldn't happen.

What if you don't have 8 (or 2, or 3, or 4) trusted friends who actually want a puppy right now?

Not to mention that she was planning two litters at much the same time (one litter born, one bitch just been to stud) -and what if all the available friends have taken on a pup and then NEXT time (as Nicki has stated she will "only" have two litters this year!) there are no friends left over..........? Not many of us would breed as frequently as this.

lmao I came onto this board because we expecting our first litter on our own (have worked for a breeder for 18 years) and my mentor had been taken very poorly and I was hoping for some advice and help me when I may need it. I have found a lovely lady who has pm'd me and given me her phone no and has helped me on a couple of occasions to be perfectly honest pretty much everyone else is so full of themselves they've shot you down in flames, picked fault in everything I've done and generally put me down at every opportunity. So to say I would class them as my peers is an abslute no no for me. I would hope to have far higher morals than most of them.

I guess you would call me amazing then if 2 or 3 makes pack mentality I had 3 litter mates years ago and when they eventually (at a good age) died I then got 2 litter mates which is what I have now and I have never known any of the signs you talk about. I appreciate that perhaps it's just the breed I have but maybe it is also that they have always had individual time each every day and have been trained from a young age.

You have all jumped on the band wagon against me and yet hardly anyone is saying that pts healthy young animals is not ok. Well I'm sorry but this stinks. Your responsiblity as the breeder should mean that there is nothing you wouldn't do for these animals and if that means funding foster homes for them until you can find them life homes then so be it.

I do not disagree with everything that has been said on here but I do disagree with alot of the comments.

well excuse me for presuming about my litters but I in fact had 7 sold (definates) and only had 5 pups in first litter I have now got another 3 waiting 1 more is a definate so I DO have said safety net in place. Please have the decency to ask before posting about me and not to be so rude and obnoxious.

> well excuse me for presuming about my litters but I in fact had 7 sold (definates) and only had 5 pups in first litter I have now got another 3 waiting 1 more is a definate so I DO have said safety net in place. Please have the decency to ask before posting about me and not to be so rude and obnoxious.<

Nicki - I have looked carefully at the responses to your posts and I cannot find one that has been rude or obnoxious - I'm sorry that you construe some to be that way!   You are the one who has been judgemental - and the people who have been responding to you are people who are talking with many years of experience behind them.

You do have a safety net in place at the moment - but as has been pointed out to you, circumstances do change - people are being made redundant who have been in so-called safe jobs for 10+ years - sadly the future is not as cut and dried as we would all wish it to be.  

I hope your safety net stays tight!

Regards

"I came onto this board because we expecting our first litter on our own".

Says it all really.

Perhaps you might give up the use of "never" and  "defnates" when youve had a few back, males in particular...just as all your bitches come into season. Or one with behavioural issues just when you have your next litter due......

There are a myriad of problems encountered over the years by dog breeders which tend to stop them using such rash statements ..................so perhaps you can give some respect to all the experienced people on this board who have been there - done that - and are giving you free advice.

Only yesterday I heard of a person who had a litter of 13 large breed pups. Still got 9 left + her other 3 dogs in a 2 up 2 down house. How the heck will they all get socialised/trained/housetrained/groomed (massive coats) individually and kept seperate when the bitches come in season? If they did end up in unsuitable homes and she was asked to have an adult male back it just wouldn't happen.

If those circumstances are correct then why the h*ll did she have the litter in the first place?  Once again, the only ones to suffer are the pups.  The breeder wants a kick up the backside.  At least if she is stuck with them she might think twice before breeding again. 

Maybe some of her buyers dried up as well.  You've heard the expression "s**t happens", well in her case it certainly will on a regular basis! :(

It does not matter how many people comment I am never going to agree with pts a fit, young, healthy pup. I currently have a 5 week old litter and was approached by a (so called) responsible local breeder who asked why I had a white one, my reply was that you can't choose the colour before they are born, she then came back with oh we drown all whites at birth but when I asked why it's because they are not worth as much can be prone to deafness and you can't show them. So if that is the way some of the best breeders (which I have to say this lasy is highly accredited) do it then they are welcome to their horrific breeding system.

I can and will always be able to sleep well at night knowing I've never hurt an innocent, fit animal so that my life was easier

Well said!!! Isnt it funny nthat there are no posts on this statement!!!

It does not matter how many people comment I am never going to agree with pts a fit, young, healthy pup. I currently have a 5 week old litter and was approached by a (so called) responsible local breeder who asked why I had a white one, my reply was that you can't choose the colour before they are born, she then came back with oh we drown all whites at birth but when I asked why it's because they are not worth as much can be prone to deafness and you can't show them. So if that is the way some of the best breeders (which I have to say this lasy is highly accredited) do it then they are welcome to their horrific breeding system.

I can and will always be able to sleep well at night knowing I've never hurt an innocent, fit animal so that my life was easier

Well said!!! Isnt it funny nthat there are no posts on this statement!!!

There is no answers to that statement as PTS simply because it's the wrong colour is a totally different ball game, something that most on here would find appaling.

I can and will always be able to sleep well at night knowing I've never hurt an innocent, fit animal so that my life was easier

Unfortunatly life is  not so rosy sometimes. I think most breeders have at some point bred a litter with a full waiting list only to have  people drop out and have to start again looking for good homes. I have 3 above average sized dogs. My limit is 4 at most as I live in a average size house. I do not have loads of space or room for kennels. I am lucky in my breed that there are usually more homes than pups so have never had to make this kind of decission.
I would consider breeding a litter with 6 or more on a list, I do not think that irrisponsible. I would not expect to wait till I had 20 or more and the need to let so many down. I would hope to be able to find good homes for all my pups and if I was left with a couple would do my utmost to place them appropriatly. At whatever price was acceptable. God forbid that I was left with 7-8 pups and no homes. It would be extreamy rare in my breed and I do think that the saleability of a certain breed must be high on the list of requirements  taken into consideration before breeding. I would never advocate PTS pups unless there really was not alternative and I was in danger of  losing control of the situation. Then I feel a swift painless death preferable to a life in a cage amongst so many others who were running riot. (with a guarding breed to try and keep 6-7 pups from one litter and give them the life they could cope with is not easy unless you have land/kennels/help). If there was always someone offering a good home then this would not happen but in some breeds now there are so many in rescue and homes are few and far between. It would not be acceptable to give certain breeds away to unexpierienced owners, fighting/guarding breeds are a specialist dog. Just out of interest would you feel that you could manage with 6-8 Rotties/GSD's/mastif's or boxers of the same age to walk train and socialize at the same time? Or for that matter  a toy breed although purely on size they would be easier to cope with. What if they reached sexuall maturity and started fighting, would you lock them all in seperate rooms? walk them all individually? Just to get them all out for 1/2 hour a day to walk would eat up at least 5 hours, then 1/4 hour each a day to train/socialize, thats another 2 hours, Cleaning up your home behind so many would be a couple of hours a day, need to work to feed them? yet again more time out of your day...That is how many end up unable to cope and have starving/dirty/caged/unexcersised dogs and then the RSPCA step in and your branded cruel.
Far better to do your best in a terrible situation and save those you know you can cope with. What life being locked in a cage all day or just left to run wild in a small garden. No one here would ever PTS a pup unless there really was no hope left.
Just out of interest, is your white pup deaf? I would never advocate PTS because of colour but you may want to have this pup checked before sale to make sure so you get the best home for him if he is. He will need a special forever home with deafness to cope with.
No one would ever like to be faced with this problem and we do our utmost to avoid it but sometimes life is hard for some. I know of some breeders who have far too many dogs and they cannot give them the best in life. There are reports all to often of homes found with heaped up cages full of dirty smelly dogs, matted coats, infections run riot.. The owners feeling they are better like that than PTS... I think not.
If I had a breed that was so numerous as to make me think I would struggle to home pups I would not breed. As it is I breed rarely. This person who has these pups left has got into an impossible situation, if she really is struggling maybe breed rescue could help as I am sure they would rather not see pups PTS, but if the breed in question has overflowing rescues then she may well be on her own.
Aileen

Hi Nicki
I've stayed well out of this up until now...

This discussion has been all about what a breeder should do when faced with an unsold litter of large (frankly could be any size) breed despite their best efforts to find correct forever homes for them.

As distasteful as it must seem to PTS healthy puppies (I hope not something I ever have to face), I'm sure that such a decision would never be taken lightly. I'm sure anyone who has put heart and soul into raising these babies would be absolutley heartbroken to make such a decision, but I can see how it could be the only truly responsible thing to do in such a circumstance.

You have the right to express your opinion, just as everyone on here as the right to express theirs. We do not always agree on everything, but the one thing I'm sure of is that everyone on here truly loves their dogs and would only want the best for them. Please do not take everything said personally, nobody is on a mission to bring you down - that is what debating is all about!! I don't think I've ever felt others on here judgemental about my requests for help as a newbie, perhaps it's down to how you put things down in type and the amount of background information given (if you don't give enough, questions may be asked which is only natural). I am very grateful to people on here as whenever I have really needed help or wasn't sure about something there was always someone to offer support and advice.

Getting back to the subject...

I have noticed even in my very common breed that there are many litters out there with puppies left not sold at 10 - 12 weeks. I can honestly say that I have not seen this before & I find it very worrying! Although I do have several people waiting for our next litter (not for at least 6 months) there are no guarantees they will still be there when the time comes & I'm thinking seriously about not breeding my bitch at all! I think I would be very foolish to think they would all sell no matter what - what to do??

I feel very sorry for anyone who finds themselves in this situation, what a nightmare!! Always a good exercise to ask friends in the breed who have had litters prior to one breeding their bitch how easy/difficult it was to find suitable homes. Thankfully, my only two litters were sold before being born (trust me, I am VERY thankful!), but I do worry about what would happen if I had a large number of unsold pups...

i think if a lot of litters  are left unsold, we can only blame it either on the economic climate or the fad for 'designer' mongrels
maybe no one wants pedigree dogs anymore, maybe thats what JH wanted all along!
when i think of all the numerous and different dog breeds available, it saddens me to think they may die out because of the ignorant public
its time someone educated the public, but who??

On the other hand there is never enough puppies to go round in our breed and with how few newcomers there is it will only get worse.

like your post tina s!

If we also take into consideration two breeders who have been in the news within the last few years it might help to illustrate the point of why PTS might be considered a responsible option.

The breeders I am thinking about - can't remember their names - one had  GSDs and the other had St Bernards. Both cases involved the RSPCA who became involved when the number of dogs they had on their premises spiralled out of control, owners couldn't look after their dogs properly and as a result the dogs suffered serious neglect. I think it was the SB breeder that stated things just got out of control and if my memory serves me correctly there was upwards of a hundred dogs on her premises? The GSD breeder was a different story and has been mentioned on here fairly recently - an older lady whose life style changed and the dogs lived in semi feral groups in a huge house that was filthy and slowly falling down around her ears.

I imagine at one time both had a set number of dogs they were able to look after and care for and that everything was as it should be - dogs were cared for, socialised, trained etc. As far as I remember for the SB breeder when this situation started to change and the number of dogs she then found herself with increased it didn't take much for the situation to spiral out of control. Having a giant breed and limited space plus a combination of both dogs and bitches it would have been impossible to keep them all separated and the resulting puppies just compounded the problem and within a very short time it escalated and became totally unmanageable and the dogs were the ones that suffered both physically and mentally. Perhaps if she had taken the decision to PTS some of the unsold puppies it would have resulted in her being able to continue to provide appropriate care for the dogs she already had and would not have resulted in the subsequent suffering for such a huge number of dogs.

There was also a link on here very recently about a woman and her daughter who took in rescues and became so overwhelmed by the number of dogs they had that humans and dogs alike ended up living in appalling conditions and had no quality of life at all. When the RSPCA became involved they found dead and dieing dogs and rightly the public were appalled.

I am sure none of these people set out to deliberately neglect their dogs and cause harm but ended up in a situation they could no longer cope with and dogs suffered greatly and needlessly. I honestly believe those dogs would have been far better off  being PTS when they were pups than having to endure a life of hell because their owners could not make that decision and believed a life of pain and neglect was preferable.

I agree Harley. It is so easy to be judgemental on people who have got into this situation but once things start sliding it can be very difficult to recognise when they have gone too far, especially if it happens over a long period of time.

Perhaps the answer is for the breeder to consider whether they could cope with keeping the entire/part of the litter if homes couldn't be found before the mating took place. This really is something to take into account along with the other 'worst case scenarios' prior to breeding, such as needing a caeserian, loss of bitch, loss of puppies. We are good at pointing out the pitfalls to novice/first time breeders and maybe this is another to add to the list?
"Could you assume responsibility to provide  care, socialisation, training, inoculations to the puppies you produce for as long as necessary (the whole of their lives) if you cannot find good homes for them? Do you have the space/time/money to keep all these extra dogs if you can't sell them?"

Personally I think this might well put quite a few people off! Even in my reasonably popular, small breed, I would struggle to find homes for a litter of 4 puppies with 'family and friends'. So often people seem to breed from a pet bitch because family and friends think she's cute and would like a puppy but how realistic is this?

For myself, hypothetically if I found myself in a position with a large litter of unsold puppies as has been described in the OP, if I had explored every alternative, I think the only kind option would be to PTS some of the litter rather than ending up in the situations described above but it would be a devastating desicion to have to make. Not an easy thought.

To be honest i have just read through this thread and it has made me think.   I know i would have to be  in the situation being spoken about before i could even think about  putting a healthy puppy to sleep .......... Things would have to be pretty drastic for me to be able to do it especially as any puppies born would be all my doing and i just don't think i would have the heart to kill a healthy pup .

I would much rather have a very long list ( say double the amount of pups that the breed would normally produce )and let the people down .

I am not putting anyone down that are saying they could , would or have put a pup to sleep , because i understand its for the good of the pup in the long run. I am simply saying i would struggle badly to end somethings life that i have spent so much time keeping safe , loving , cuddling and making strong so it can live a good , full life ......... it just feels wrong

Guess i wouldn't make a very good breeder

I think that any breeder who had to resort to this would never breed again.