hi all im new to the forum,my little girl miemie is tiny  and is such a fantic dog.
we decided to breed her after so many freinds and family tryed to take her home .
we found her a lovly parter and let them get together to play for a few weeks before our girl come into season.and her vet look her over etc im allways upto date with all miemies needs etc
when the time was right they mated twice(2 ties) 23/5/11 and the same agian on 25/5/11.and possibly a few times inbetween.
i noticed a few changes over the next couple of wks,nipples,mood,food etc,and called the vet.
i took her to our vet on 9/6/11 and he couldent feel anything.and suggested coming back for a scan,so on 15/6/11 of we went,the vet still felt nothing altho her weight had gone up 5oz since last visit,and couldent see anything on the scan(tottally gutted),he then suggested she may not be as far gone as we thought and she could have 1 maybe to hiding,so we are due to go have a scan on 13/7/11 just incase.
has any one else had this,,i know it seems more likley a phantom,but can hope!!
so sorry its long and thanks for reading
amanda x

hi sorry to say u will have to take your breed of dog off its not allowed on here,

the not knowing is horrible i hate the waiting too! x

opps so sorry and thanks for leting me know,now removed.
amanda x

What do you mean up to date with her needs ?

Do you mean health testing for the breeds but would be difficult as your bitch is a cross.

Why did you think about breeding her just because you say peoole tried to take her home . Not a reasoned argument at all to why you should breed her .

hi yes i mean all her chqs jabs,wormer etc.
we thought a lot about breeding so we could keep 1,and if we were lucky enough to have more we had good homes waiting with family and close freinds,by saying they wounted to take her home i was sharing how loved she is by all.
im so sorry if i have upset anyone with my post
i would just like to know if anyone else has had the same/simmler experiance
amanda x

Amanda there us far more to health testing than just getting your dog vaccinated .

Alot of dogs have inherited health issues can can only be determined by specialist tests.

And possibly a few times in-between...

This comment is very worrying, it suggests that you left both stud and bitch alone. This can be very dangerous for both. :(

Both the vet palpating and the scan were done too early for definite pregnnancy diagnosis.
beware if she carries one pup there is a high likelihood of a caesarian. Would have thought for that cross the least health testing to be done should be eyes and patellas.

hi all im sorry if i come across as stupid,im not very good at explaing things i have ms and find it hard using laptop and thinking at the same time!!!!!!!!!!!!!
off course my girl had all the right chqs as has her freind,and they was only left alone when i went to the loo,i dont wont to sound rude but im not silly!!!!
im not a breeder and have only ever had i litter a few years ago with a staffy and she had a c section.
i would never ever put my girl at risk knowingly,she isant just a pet but my best freind.
im so sorry i have upset so many.
amanda x

Hi Amanda what health  checks and results did you get then out if interest ?

>my little girl miemie is tiny 

If she's tiny she might well get into serious trouble whelping; usually only larger bitches are bred from for safety, using smaller dogs.

>off course my girl had all the right chqs as has her freind,

Which specialist checks (not the ordinary general checks by your vet, but ones by a specialist where you get certificates to prove they've been done) are required for yorkshire terriers and bichons frisé? I'm not an expert in either breed.

>im not a breeder and have only ever had i litter a few years ago

Anyone who owns a bitch that has a litter is a breeder, just as anyone who has a child is a parent.

Hi Amanda, please don't lose heart :) Champdogs is a forum where a lot of its members own, show/work and breed pedigree dogs. They put a tremendous amount of knowledge, time and effort into breeding their dogs, proving them in the show ring or for working purpose and will reconise their dogs faults, research pedigrees and invest a good deal of money into health screening their stock before breeding and this is not just a check up at the vets. Many vets have no idea about breeding, the uneducated trust that their vet knows best but sadly they do not always understand the length a good breeder will go to. All breeds have their different tests and normally more than one and all these cost money. I have not bred a litter for a good few years but if I wanted to breed a Labrador now I would test for Hips, Elbows, optigen dna for PRA and CNM testing. I have just enquired for an up to date price on hip scoring from my vet and its £165 which is actually quite cheap!

A good breeder will normally have a waiting list (friends and family are sadly notorious for letting you down), they will question future owners and expect to be questioned. Puppies will be KC Registered, endorsed, go with contracts and guide to rearing and any relevent breed information. A good breeder will always take back a dog they have bred, regardless of age, will always be on hand to give advice and help with any problems a new owner may have. Your duty of care should not end once you take payment for a pup.

I do not think you are stupid, but if you stick around the forum( and I hope you do) you will see why the members of champdogs feel the way they do. Your post says your bitch is very tiny, is she too small to be bred? Toy breeds often have more problems than the larger breeds, when the time comes for her to whelp would you be able to notice if your bitch was in trouble, how long to leave it before calling a vet. Would you reconise eclampsia or other problems your bitch may suffer after whelping. You say you only left them together when going to the loo this is long enough to cause problems. And you say you would never knowingly put your bitch at risk. Breeding any bitch is a risk even for the most experienced but sadly with your inexperience you are putting your bitch in a lot more danger.

Its not that I am trying to put you down, everyone has to start somewhere but starting with more knowledge is a must. You only have to look on the general board and see the post about stupid crosses and about pups not selling. You should take the time to learn about breeding (and you are a breeder if you breed even one litter) there is so much to learn. Please see this post as education rather than taking it as having a go. :) :)

Excellent posts Labs..

agreed fab post labs :)

thank you labs,yes i totally understand how peaple feel
miemie is tiny,but not that tiny if that makes sence she isant,i grew up with big breeds so she is tiny to me.
if homes didant work they would come home to me,then i would of course spay/nueter as theres sadley to many un wanted dogs.
i dont have know where near as much knolidge as the breeders on here,and really would like to stay around for for helpful info/tips etc.
SO BIG SORRY TO ALL.
And please if any one could answer about scans not showing pups i would be really thankful
regards amanda x

I am a breeder of toy sizes, and I am hoping that you have been sensible, and have in excess of £1,000 for the C-section that may come out of hours.  Tiny bitches are never used for breeding by responsible breeders.  It very much sounds that, if your girl is that tiny, you may encounter inertia.  From the sound of your experience, I feel that you are unlikely to recognise this, and your bitch would be in danger.

Leaving two dogs together, even while "going to the loo" is very dangerous.  If you were not aware of the dangers, I think you would be wise to get yourself a knowledgeable mentor.  It would mean that you could learn and, hopefully, have the experienced advice that you so much need.

However, without a doubt, you are a breeder.  Women with only one child can't say they aren't a mother just because it only happened once!  Anyone who owns a pregnant bitch is a breeder. 

Amanda, have you got the book of the bitch?  If not, order it fast and try to read it 20 odd times all the way through before you breed a litter.  It won't make you an experienced person, but it will hopefully fill in some blanks that are in evidence at the moment.  How old is your bitch?  And how many seasons has she had.  Is the sire at least 1lb lighter than her (preferably more!)

I am really surprised the vet agreed to scan so early on, even professional scanners won't do it before 28days as it is a waste of time.

I have to agree with other members that not enough research and breed specific health tests have been done before this mating took place. You already have a past history of a C/Section with a much larger breed, that would totally put me off breeding from a bitch you say is "tiny".

Have you read The Book of the Bitch? If you haven't then get a copy and read it thoroughly.

I hope for her sake everything goes OK.

> Which specialist checks (not the ordinary general checks by your vet, but ones by a specialist where you get certificates to prove they've been done) are required for yorkshire terriers and bichons frisé? I'm not an expert in either breed.

I'm not an expert either but I understand that there may be eye problems common to both breeds, also possibly Legge Perthes disease and luxating patella. A lot depends on what breed she has been mated to, but if it's back to either parent breed then risk of these issues increases - especially if bred back to a Yorkie, as heart problems, portosystemic shunt and PRA are other issues that might arise from that side of the family.

i dont have know where near as much knolidge as the breeders on here,

I'm sorry but you don't breed without knowledge, this is a planned mating not an accident where you have been thrown in at the deep end and knew nothing about an injection to terminate, you've planned a mating with no health tests, no understanding, no care, your meimei who you profess to love so much can die whilst in whelp in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to cope with a breech and all the other things that can go wrong, your pups could die if you don't understand how to resuscitate etc, this has been done with no thought or care for your bitch or the pups you basically just think it is cute.

Hopefully this is a WUM stating that you have also bred previously a litter of Staffs :-D as I am beyond upset if it isn't.

Don't apologise, your apology needs to go to the poor bitch who you are doing a disservice to.

It is possible to give a bitch the Alizin injection up to around 40 days after mating to terminate the pregnancy.  This is worth seriously considering if she is pregnant.

Carrington.... I totally understand why you are upset, I was too, BUT I decided to try to educate the OP rather than tearing her off a strip.

Some people are genuinely nieve and do not realise they are doing anything wrong. Not everybody lives and breaths dogs like many of us do, and if we have ago at everyone who comes on here looking for advice they are more likely to think stuff you, never visit the board again and continue with their breeding plans anyway, but if we at least try to educate and just express they way dog breeding should be undertaken they may well just stick around long enough to learn that there is more to breeding than putting a dog and bitch in the same room together and hoping for the best. This forum is a wealth of knowledge and by sticking around new members will get to learn about other people's experiences both good and bad with every aspect of dog ownership not just breeding. Many people who are not in the show/working world and decide to get a pet normally do so from pet litters from breeders who have limited knowledge. They are not good mentors obviously but to someone who has even less knowledge will tend to look up to them and think they are doing no wrong and because these type of breeder rarely health test then the puppy buyer may not even know such health screenings exist and so the cycle of bad breeding continues even with the best intentions. This is where a forum like this comes into play.

When I got my first lab at the tender age of 16 I knew nothing, I had just taking up beating and decided I wanted a gundog to train. I saw an advert, I went to see the 5 mth old pup and bought him. I didn't even know what a kennel club registration was let alone that a dog needed health tests. We had only ever had cross-breeds as pets as a child. I didn't know that I should feed him puppy food still and fed him on repnor gold :O I over exercised him and made training sessions way too long. But luckily he turned out great and was my best gundog and taught me so much. I then went on to learn so much mainly because dogs are now my life but also because of reading about and meeting good breeders. Now I can use the knowledge I have (although you never stop learning) to help others who are uneducated as we all once were. No one is born with this knowledge you learn it from those who have been lucky enough to obtain it. It takes a better person to be kind enough to share their knowledge with those who are willing to accept it.

Where's the 'like' button? :D

I really hope that this is a wind up.

> It takes a better person to be kind enough to share their knowledge with those who are willing to accept it.

And then there are those who feel that the nanny society has gone mad and consequences never need to be faced, one is not accountable for ones actions, no repercussions need to be faced etc etc.

I agree though, that in this case, it is probably a WUM. Facts remain the same.......you get off scott free - you do it again!

Yes we need alike button :) some good posts on here with good advice wum or not it may help others who are thinking of breeding because they own a "nice" dog who everyone like. If this lady is genuine I hope she listens to the advice given as to how to deal with the problem she may have now in the best way for her bitch.
Please op if you really are in this situation continue to ask question and people with the knowledge please help her so her dog is safe, telling  her in some peoples case she was stupid wont help her dog.
Yes toolz you are right

I cant remember how many times when I first had our  toy crossbreed people asked me to breed from her ,I even have one lovely lady with a purebred of one of our dogs breeds asked me to mate her with hers and we could keep the pups. Why ? yes both dogs are lovely but my little one does have a couple of potential problems with her health she is a crossbreed who had no health tests done  and I wouldnt want to risk her health just beacuse she is sweet.It was almost a relief when after I had her spayed I was able to genuinely say sorry she she is spayed so not possible it was much easier than to go through the whole why it was not right to breed from her conversation 

Please can we keep comments constructive please (not directed at anyone in particular). Whether the OP is a WUM or not is besides the point, others will read this thread and will pick up useful info from posts like Labs and if a sensible constructive post make one person think again about breeding from their pet, than the advice has not been given in vain. If you feel the OP is not genuine, then just don't post - you all have a choice whether to contribute or not to any thread ;-)

Thank you JaneS :)

Actually Carrington I think I have been a member longer than you! I just don't post that often, I tend to be a reader. But I hope this doesn't cause any bad feeling both yourself and toolze are in my top 5 of most respected posters and I will continue to read, enjoy and learn from your posts as I have done for a long time :) :) :)

But I hope this doesn't cause any bad feeling

Of course not, I don't hold grudges, disagree until the cows come home, it makes no difference. :-)

I don't actually disagree with anything you say, unfortunately my patience has grown thin with WUM's and careless breeders (I guess it happens to us all eventually) quite rightly I shall take JaneS's advice and leave this thread with those of you still with that patience and able to offer constructive help and criticism.

I leave you with a large jug of Pimms & ice and a plate of fruit, to keep you going, (you'll probably need it) whilst I put hand firmly over mouth and toddle off to pastures new. :-)

if homes didant work they would come home to me,then i would of course spay/nueter as theres sadley to many un wanted dogs.

what a contradiction! you are producing possible unwanted dogs to add to all the others out there! do you have a waiting list for puppies?

May I ask a couple of questions?

Why do you want a litter from your bitch? If she's a fantastic dog and much loved pet and is being bred to sell the pups (which is what's happening) why not just keep her as a pet? I am sure you dont need me or anyone else to tell you the risks involved and that your bitch would be in potential danger? Surely her lifes worth more than pleasing your friends/family?

I am guessing she is not health tested (checks are completely different) and I am guessing here but the stud of your choice? What tests has he had done?

The male she was put to, I am assuming he is a toy breed also? Has the stud owner offered to help you sell the pups?

Keeping a litter of pups is hard work, its going to be mentally draining on your bitch and yourself. There is a risk she will need a c-section which can run into the 000's. What will happen if for any reason (god forbid) the pups pass away? Or she has a singleton pup? Would you breed her again?

If you do sell the pups and 1 or 2 of the pups have a genetic condition passed down from mum or dad are you going to take the pup back or offer to pay treatment?

May I also ask how old she is? Out of interest.

There is a lot of thought and preparation that goes into breeding, health testing and finding and vetting the homes for the pups. There's more to breeding than putting a bitch and a dog together.

Hi, Have you had your scan yet? I have a working dog who we think is pregnant, but not for sure yet. She had a scan at 17 to 20 weeks which i thought was too early. We are going to take ours for another scan on 8th July. I know it looks like people are ganging up on you, but i do agree with a few comments on here, you should have really got all the Jabs, PRA, hips and Elbows done and also made sure you have enough money in case some thing goes wrong, and yes it could cost you £1000 + for a c section. Im impatient too, i so want to know if my girl is definately pregnant. Yes there could have been a very seriously damage to the male and female he could have broke his penis as well as damage the femail inside. I hope you get to find out soon and hope every thing goes well with the birth. x

> hips and Elbows

Are these health tests usual for Yorkies or Bichons?

>> hips and Elbows
> Are these health tests usual for Yorkies or Bichons?

All breeds can suffer Hip Dysplasia, but few toy breed breeders hip score.

Bichon Frise Scored: 16, Range: 4-19, Mean: 10

It would seem that fewer than 10 (if any) Yorkies have been scored.

Im not too sure i dont breed little dogs. But hope your not too upset, i got upset when i first came on here and people told the truth (they do say the truth hurts) But it nice to have different views. How pregnant do you think she is? x

More important to check for luxating patella in toys.

Yes, I agree and am surprised that they don't have an official scheme in place here in the UK as there certainly is a grading and certification scheme in the USA as a bitch I exported was cleared, for pattellas along with hips and elbows, eyes, kidneys.

I know some breed clubs are now encouraging breeders to check their dog using the Putnam scale. Once people start checking their dogs the breed clubs plan to ask the KC to make it a required test. I think French bull dogs and Boston terriers and a couple of others are working on it.