An aquaintance of mine has 8 12wk old pups left that just are not selling, they are a large, relatively rare  breed. This has got me thinking about this scenario...obviously there is no way she can socialise the pups to the degree that they should be, she has advertised them where she can and is juts having no interest.

She didnt have a waiting list and i did question her reasons for breeding as she isnt (well, wasnt!) planning on keeping a pup. She isnt the sort of person i would call a byb as the pups are from some of the best bloodlines and parents both health tested, and she is very academic and definitely not short of money so im not sure what the motivating factor was, but i digress.

Just wondering what other breeders in this situation would do, ie. would you reduce the price? Contact breed rescue? Or would you just get on with things and do the best that you could and hope to find homes before puppies turn into hormone raging adolescents?!!

I can't understand breeding if there's no demand? I never do a mating unless I have a substantial list plus I  (3 out of 4) nearly always keep a puppy. I think  this person has to do everything in her power via Breed Clubs, adverts, word and mouth, what ever it takes etc etc etc  to find good homes asap and maybe not expect a monetary income. How she can have so many pups at such a late stage is beyond me but it is the poor puppies I feel sorry for. They should have been in their new 'forever' homes long ago and being introduced to their new lives and surrroundings, poor little (or big) mites, how wrong it is to bring these animals into the world in this way. I would certainly say she must act fast and not look money for these babies if she can find good homes that is paramount now. I should imagine breed rescue would be disgusted. That's just my opinion :-(

We had the same problem in my breed 2 years ago. 8 pups unsold at 8 weeks. Unfortunately with a rare breed you do need to have a waiting list before breeding or this situation arises.

A group of us did all we could to help home the pups, but the breeder did have to significantly reduce her price and nearly had a nervous break down at the end of it as the last pup went to it's new home at 22 weeks old!

We did think of all fostering individual pups so that they could get the individual attention they needed but it was decide best to leave them in their home as, of course, ideally they would go onto their forever homes.

It was a hard lesson for her, truly proved that pups need to go to their new homes at the right age and it always sticks in the back of my mind when I'm planning a litter.

The best thing she can do is advertise on all the breed club sites, on the KC's puppy register ect.
Has she spoke to the stud dog owner to see if the stud owner has a waiting list that she can pinch a few off?

I would also never breed without that full waiting list, if the waiting list goes belly up that is just bad luck, but not even having one is madness, particularly with a breed which is 'rare/ish' it's that way because it is not the in breed at present for whatever reason or needs specialist owners not for the everyday GP plenty of breeds fall into this category and breeding plans need to be thought out well in advance.

Reducing the price a big no, no, for whatever reason the breed is not 'popular' that will encourage impulse buyers & wrong homes.

I know many breeders would pts litters unsold if the right homes just can not be found, often a better end than ending up in rescues being passed around and giving to wrong homes.

Myself, (we've had this discussion before :-) ) I would make arrangements to keep them, but they would need to be separated I would probably build kennels so that I could train, socialise and mix 'n' match along the way, during which time could be 6, 12, 18, 24 months I would keep advertising them in my breed circles, breed club, KC wherever I was perhaps going to find the right homes. But in no way would I panic and rush to move them on, you have to be patient and wait for the right home, it's what the pups deserve, you don't bring them into the world to just send them off without proper thought.

PTS....surely not !

The homes these pups went to were even more vetted than usual as they had started exhibiting "pack mentality" by 18 weeks. They all went to experienced dog owners, put in touch with the breeder by people in this breed.

It must have worked because they are all still in their original homes.

Breed rescue -NO WAY, that is not what they are for. Nobody should mate a bitch likely to have a large litter without a waiting list. But things can obviously change. Last year I had a waiting list of 12, that dropped down to ONE person and the bitch ended up having 9 pups. Those of you here that know me  know just how much I panicked, as my breed need a LOT of socialisation. Didn't help it was during the worst snow also. I advertised EVERYWHERE, literally, including in all the places I'd never otherwise consider. That did no good whatsoever, I might as well not have bothered. So in the end there were two things to do.: 1. Accept I'd have to keep at least 2 pups myself (thankfully I only had to keep two),  and the stud dog owner had to accept she had to take two as well (which she didn't mind -and of course I didn't charge her), 2. I had to go out and FIND the homes myself. That meant contacting previous puppy buyers, other breeders that may know people looking (that was obviously all done in a sensible way, explaining in detail what had happened and asking if anybody could help - not sending out adverts to strangers like a person here on CD did recently) and also look at institutions that might use my breed, such as police. Obviously here breed is everything but with many breeds you could also ask guide dogs, hearing dogs, assistance dogs etc etc and if you have to you donate the pups.

I had 5 pups for weeks longer than usual due to the snow and we got them out and about, we were out with them even when nobody else stuck their nose outside the door (including on Christmas Day) -it HAD to be done. It's the risk you take when breeding and it's nobody's responsibility but your own.

I know somebody, totally different breed and breed group, that ended up keeping 5 pups. I said to them they should donate them to the police (breed they would use for certain types of work), they wouldn't even consider it without getting paid. Well what is worse -not getting money or having to train 5 pups.........AND pay for the upkeep of five!

> know somebody, totally different breed and breed group, that ended up keeping 5 pups. I said to them they should donate them to the police (breed they would use for certain types of work), they wouldn't even consider it without getting paid. Well what is worse -not getting money or having to train 5 pups

I also know someone who was really insistent they would not donate or give away pups they couldn't sell and at 7 months they still had 4 large dogs left. All suffering from poor socialisation and lack of training. She did eventually rehome 2 to a friend but got no money at all for them and the pups never recovered from their poor start in life. The two she kept were also very nervy and couldn't go anywhere as she hadn't been able to socialise them either.

I do know she turned down several people when the pups were younger because they didn't want to pay the full price for an older pup. I think she would have been better letting them go earlier for less rather than keeping them in the vain hope she might get the full asking price. In the end she fed them for 7 months and vaccinated them and gave them away for nothing. She even delivered them to their new home.

> would you reduce the price? Contact breed rescue? Or would you just get on with things and do the best that you could and hope to find homes before puppies turn into hormone raging adolescents?!!

Certainly would not be contacting breed rescue, the breeder has the responsibility rescue is for dogs who have no-one to help them.

The breeder simply has to socialise each pup and do the appropriate training until homes can be found.

Certainly reducing the price would be silly as the lack of homes are unlikely to be anything to do with the price, but simply there not being the people interested.

Certainly more advertising might pay dividends, but the screening has to be even tighter if advertising in more general places where many enquirers may be impulse buyers.

I have never bred a litter assuming that all puppies will be homed by 8 - 10 weeks old.  Fortunately the average litters size in my breed is 6 (though litters of 14 have been known), so with advance bookings  for at least 3 of each sex (after the inevitable cancellations by birth) I would hope not to be left with more than 3 or 4 not spoken for when born, if there was a larger litter or mostly one sex.

> An aquaintance of mine has 8 12wk old pups left that just are not selling, they are a large, relatively rare  breed. This has got me thinking about this scenario...obviously there is no way she can socialise the pups to the degree that they should be, she has advertised them where she can and is juts having no interest.
>
> She didnt have a waiting list and i did question her reasons for breeding as she isnt (well, wasnt!) planning on keeping a pup. She isnt the sort of person i would call a byb as the pups are from some of the best bloodlines and parents both health tested, and she is very academic and definitely not short of money so im not sure what the motivating factor was, but i digress.
>
> Just wondering what other breeders in this situation would do, ie. would you reduce the price? Contact breed rescue? Or would you just get on with things and do the best that you could and hope to find homes before puppies turn into hormone raging adolescents?!! <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20 height=10>

IMO, this thread should be highlighted in the "breeding" section - as a cautionery tale for all newbie would-be breeders who think that they can cash in on their rare breeds :(

I agree with all the comments that Breed Rescue is NOT the way to go - of course, contact the Breed Society Puppy Register holder and let them know about the puppies so that enquiries can be directed to the breeder.

It is important that she makes finding the RIGHT homes for these puppies a priority, and although its not something that I would normally suggest, if she can find  good "foster homes" with people in the breed who could take one at a time - separating them before they strengthen the "pack mentality" that will be coming into play about now, it would help the puppies long-term.   And of course - she is going to have to take greatly-reduced prices if she wishes them to be rehomed quickly.

A good example of how important it is to have at least some homes in place before puppies are considered!

I agree with Carrington that it is imperative to have a list before breeding. I will not do the mating without at least  half a dozen good homes not including the one I keep for myself. If there isn't the interest before the mating (with prior notice) then why should there be after ? I have already a list for a mating from a certain bitch in 3 to 4 years time. IMO your bring life into this world because it is wanted and it's future is as guaranteed as is humaly possible not because you fancy 'having a litter' and to hell with the lives of these little puppies.  I am beginning to wonder if this is actauly a wind up as we have not heard from the original person again and I find it impossible to believe that this situation                   exists in todays society :-(

in my breed as you can tell i have corgis rescue is for both corgi breeds, the rescue would jump at the chance as they have a 72 person strong waiting list for a rescue corgi,newsletter just arrived today about 3 years long in real time, they would help out by ringing the list and see if anyone would take a pup, but i know most breeds are not in this situation, the litter i bred last year four people had spoken for pups before litter was born and i wanted a dog and bitch, once janaury arrived and (pups were eight weeks xmas eve) people could get here pups went, when my mothers health went pear shaped lost half a foot to blood poisioning, we made the decision to rehome our pups made calls to friends in the breed, both pups were gone in five days both to friends of friends who had sold them the last pups they had and had known they for over 15 years

Certainly reducing the price would be silly as the lack of homes are unlikely to be anything to do with the price, but simply there not being the people interested.


Not necessarily. Somebody saving up for a pup later might be perfectly able to take one on earlier and be suitable but might not have the full amount yet. In fact that happened to me. I was researching getting my first Malinois, had envisioned having a few months to get money together. Turned out that back then, you basically had only two litters a year born in the breed and both were available right THEN, with pups still available. I had the time etc for a pup but not the purchase money as it happened so much quicker than I thought. (Literally within a week.) The breeder I got in touch with really needed another home (she ended up having to keep two pups herself in the end anyway) so she offered me a pup and let me pay in installments -amazing trust from somebody who didn't know me. (I did get a grilling first though, and she knew my husband worked for one of the dog papers.) So I got my pup sooner than expected and of course it all worked out great.

Lots of people would also not pay the same price for say a 5 month old pup as for an 8 week old one. Varies a lot from breed to breed though. Taking on a 5 month old Malinois would be very hard work indeed in a breed where they need to bond with their owners early as they do bond so strongly to ONE person, but a Papillon or Cavalier that age is no problem whatsoever.Hence an older Mali would usually cost less, the others not.

Hi Carrington in an earlier post on this topic you stated that you knew breeders who would put their pups to sleep if they could not find good homes for them.Could you expand on this.

It seems fairly self-explanatory to me; after all, that's what rescue centres do ...

I don't know many vets that would entertain someone wanting to PTS a healthy pup just because you couldn't find a paying customer!  How do they PTS?

On the other hand, I just paid half price for a 5 month old pup.  Not that I was aware in any way but once I got the boy home and did my research and found his breeder, they let me know how much he was at 8 weeks and I in turn told her how much I paid.  Funny thing is I would pay double to get one at that age!!  Miss out the toilet training!  I also got a pup back once at just under a year old.  I kept him a month and then had to re-home as he was entire as was his mother.  I advertised him through the breed club for £200.  And when the ideal family came along, he went for free as I just didn't want people thinking they would take him because he was free.  Apparently, this is big business, to take all the free dogs in the ads and sell them on.  Sad world.

> I don't know many vets that would entertain someone wanting to PTS a healthy pup just because you couldn't find a paying customer!&nbsp; How do they PTS?
>
>

Same way they reluctantly put down those that rescue centres can't home :(.

Funny thing is I would pay double to get one at that age!!  Miss out the toilet training!

That's IF they've done it! I bought a 9 month old pup that had never even been attempted to be house trained, took over a year to get her clean. That's always a big risk if you buy a much older pup, especially if the breeder has just kennelled.

Apparently, this is big business, to take all the free dogs in the ads and sell them on.

Yes it happened to me. :( I had an accidental litter 9 years ago, sold the pups cheaply as they were crossbreeds, one lady appeared with a perfect story (just lost her elderly dog etc), all sounded great, but she said she was short of money -had money for vaccinations and food etc but could I drop the price? so I gave her the pup for free as all that mattered to me was a good home, and days later she sold it on for a profit. Never again will I be so stupid. For years afterwards I collected ads on the internet where the same person was advertising saying she wanted a pup to replace a dear old recently lost dog, must be either very cheap or free.

Hi Carrington in an earlier post on this topic you stated that you knew breeders who would put their pups to sleep if they could not find good homes for them.Could you expand on this.

Sure! :-)

Responsible breeders......... I'm not talking about the ones who pop out pups to try to make money (though often that isn't the case when things go wrong) we take a lifelong interest in our pups, we'll take them back if need be from 8 weeks - 18yrs, we'll be there from start to finish for advice from training to behaviour to holiday cover etc.........

I'm lucky and I know I'm lucky I have the room if I were ever to be left with pups to build kenneling room for them, I work from home I have time to train and socialise, I have a large family and friend base who can take any dogs I have during my holidays or weekends away or if I were to feel ill. I'm fine and I can be very complacent in the fact I could if need be keep any pups. :-)

However, not every breeder is this lucky, many do have to work part time or full time away from home, which means training and socialising may be lacking in trying to spread time amongst a large number of pups left, many don't have the room to house their adolescent and adult pups, or have anyone to help if they were to go away or be ill etc.......... some of the best breeders can't feasibly accommodate more than one or two of their pups without homes. Smaller breeds it would perhaps be much more manageable, but imagine 6-8 pups of large breeds, all boisterous, all needing attention, all becoming wilder and less controllable with a pack mentality, if no room to separate.........

If they have searched every avenue possible to find homes for their pups and no 'suitable' home comes along, what do they do? No breeder ever wants to pts (via a vet) a litter, they have reared, they've put time, love, sweat and tears and attention into that litter, it won't be an easy decision.

But, I don't think any of us should judge that happening, responsibility sometimes can lead us down pathways we would never normally entertain.  Millions of pups are born every year, sometimes the homes just aren't there for many reasons.

Which is why it is so important to have that waiting list full prior to even mating if bad luck happens afterwards such breeders know they tried everything first and they are wholly responsible for the lives they create. 

>obviously there is no way she can socialise the pups to the degree that they should be,

Well, how refreshing to see this very obvious fact stated. 

Hi,
I have to say there's a similar problem in my breed at the moment.  They are large breed and rare - people have all had waiting lists but with only 80 puppies or so a year it seems that people are on more than one list.  There had been a real shortage of puppies but as always lots of litters came at once - there were 4 at Christmas and now there's 3.  These are well respected and responsible breeders who show regularly etc and all the dogs are from Champions (although in my breed i don't think that means quite as much as those of you who have to fight 40 other dogs in the ring).  It happens that they all had large litters (breed average 5-8) all 4 litters at the moment are around 12. 

I can only think its down to being just before the summer holidays.  In that situation I would start advertising locally (we only really advertise through breed clubs, champdogs and other breeders so people have to work hard to find the breed and do some research).  Equestrian/ tack/ farm shops and vets can be good places to advertise but personally I'd avoid the paper, shop window, questionable websites etc.

best advert I find for a rare breed is to get them out meeting people so they get to know a bit more about the breed. 

Could you look at temp foster homes for them?  Do you have friends who are maybe in the breed or knowledgeable who could take one for a maximum of 2 months or so until you find a home - obviously you'd need to compensate for their time and food etc....

Best of luck to your friend and they aren;'t the only person finding it tough to sell at the moment - i even heard a breeder blaming the torries and their cuts for their 6 puppies without homes at 14 weeks!

xxxx

> she is very academic and definitely not short of money so im not sure what the motivating factor was

Although it may seem callous, events like this are, in some cases, the only way people will actually cut down on breeding.

There is no surer way to stop a puppy farmer ( for example) breeding litters of a certain breed, than being left with them...no sale no profit. No I am not saying that this is the case here but it is a truism.

It doesnt solve this problem but it sure as heck will make her and all that hear of it, think twice before breeding without a good long list of interested parties.  This breed is not considered 'rare' for nothing then!

Reply directed at rabid...

I sense a hint of sarcasm in your post? am i wrong?

We have previously had a discussion about pups being unhomeable beyond 8 - 10 weeks of age, whihc for puppy farmed and many BYB bred litters amy be true. 

The argument most breeders, myself included put forward that this is only the case if age appropriate socialisation and training IS NOT carried out, and that normally a breeder worthy of the name will socialise and train puppies as appropriate no matter what age they are homed, but of course it would be rare for there to be more than a couple of unhomed pups, or pups run-on, so even if it is hard work a conscientious breeder will ensure pups are raised properly to be fit to be homed.

I an many others have had no issues with homing pups beyond the usual 8 - 10 weeks of age, but have of course brought them on properly as we would the ones we keep for ourselves.  There are some breeds that form very strong attachments early, or require very intense socialisation due to being much more sensitive than average, and are less adaptable, but in the main breeds with average outgoing natures do fine whatever age they are homed.

A large number of large breed puppies would be quite a challenge with ongoing socialisation and training, and would require enlisting the help of stud owner, family and friends to do the required work, but it can and has to be done.

I find it hard to believe that any responsible breeder would consider the 'PTS' option.

I think any breeder who used that last resort would probably never risk breeding again.

i know some1 thats bred 1 of her girls and she had 3 pups (now 14 weeks old and not sold 1) and her other bitch has had 7 and not 1 even reserved before she mated them!!!! the last litter now 3 weeks old and not 1 phone call ,and this breed are small everybody wants 1 kind of dogs! so she says!!! poor pups, she moans shes got no money she hasnt even jabed any of the 1st litter yet ,she thinks she can ask for £600 still at this age ,they havnt been able to go out for a walk or anything! and this breed are full of beans being from working back grounds, poor puppies :( x

wow i must have been lucky. i had a waiting list of 8 for both my litters, 4 dropped out both times but i had the whole litter sold by the time they were 4 days old and i had people calling for pups weeks after they were all gone.
that was 5 years ago so it seems times have changed a lot and not for the better

pack mentality" by 18 weeks

dont all dogs have pack mentalitiy? isnt that what dogs do?

My issue with this breeder is that now way can she properly socialise them, she has no kennelling facilities so all pups are in the house together, she also works full time and i happen to know that the stud owner has not and is not planning on taking any of them on themselves.

Though she has just sold one more.

>pack mentality" by 18 weeks
>dont all dogs have pack mentalitiy? isnt that what dogs do?

To a certain extent - but if they're allowed to grow together in a canine group without intensive one-to-one with humans, they'll become semi-feral and even more difficult to home. They need to spend a lot of time apart from each other and interacting with humans to get the proper desirable bond, and with so many and not enough time and/or staff this just won't happen.

well fingers crossed they all go very soon for the pups sake x

I find it hard to believe that any responsible breeder would consider the 'PTS' option.

I must admit the first time I heard of it happening it horrified me, I was very contrary in how could anyone who loved their pups do such a thing? But, then I thought about it with all the reasons I stated above if even breed rescue can't send people your way, unless your going to just give them out to anyone who would look your way (which a responsible breeder really couldn't do) my heart goes out to such people having that dilemma.

Of course at the other end of the scale is the puppy farmer who would have no qualms about having a litter pts which didn't sell, or bitches who have done their duty. :-(

Advertising pups at cut down prices and give aways IMO brings in all sorts of wrong types of owners, far better just not to put a price there and put POA allowing you to vet as normal, but if in that position and the right owner did come along through enquiry, I would probably drop to my knees and kiss their feet having no prob whatsoever in giving them the older pup for free, just glad it finally had a home. :-)

couldnt agree with you more carrington a forever home with the right people means everything not the money x

Sorry Carrington but euthanasing healthy pups...come on !

Yes just like rescues pts healthy dogs

having read all of these posts I am hoping that any breeder who has ever had to PTS healthy pups for this reason have never and will never breed again because doing it once is awful but to risk having to do it again is just unforgivable and if they have then they can never call themselves responsible animal lovers.

I hope these pups sell for their sakes and I hope the breeder learns a valuable lesson from it.

Sorry Boody but what has that got to do with 'responsible breeders' euthanasing healthy pups.

I am pointing out that there is many reason a vet will pts, just because it may be a cutesy little pup makes no difference,, I heard from my vet that they had pts a 4 year old lab as the couple had had enough of looking after it's skin complaint.
Just because something seems abhorrent doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I'm glad the breed I have even the biggest if litters is only 7 with the average at 3 so I would manage.

Yes but the vet would have nothing to put to sleep unless a 'responsible breeder' requests this service.

Not to many years back breeders would of done it themselves by drowning them, like I said it's not something I'm comfortable with but it does happen.

> Sorry Boody but what has that got to do with 'responsible breeders' euthanasing healthy pups.

Not an easy decision to make but I can see how this could be a responsible decision. If the breeder cannot find suitable homes for the pups - and there is a huge difference between a suitable home and any old home- and is not able to keep a large number of puppies and ensure that every one of them is well socialised and can be trained on an individual basis then yes having the pups PTS might be the only responsible option left open to them.

Breeders who don't care where their pups end up and wash their hands of all responsibility once the puppy is out the door would just pass them on to anyone who would take them and a huge number of dogs who are homed this way then end up being either passed from home to home, or living a half life with someone who isn't really bothered about their dog or ending up in rescue - those are the easy options and can be done by anyone.

The harder option to take is the decision that the puppies they bred will not be handed out to anyone who will take them off their hands nor will they end up fearful, aggressive or totally out of control due to the near impossibility of being able to correctly socialise and train a whole litter of pups and ensure they grow into well balanced, well trained happy adults. As awful as seems it can be kinder to make the decision to PTS in order to ensure the puppies will not become yet another addition to the endless number of dogs who spend their life in and out of rescues. As I have said many times before there are things far worse than death.

There is a big difference between responsible breeding where a breeder has had a waiting list for puppies and then found themselves without homes for their pups - as detailed in previous posts - and a breeder such as the one the OP is talking about who has bred their pups on a whim without even giving a thought to where the pups would end up.

The responsible breeder IMHO would be taking responsibility for the pups they bred and ensuring they wouldn't suffer in the future. Not a decision I would ever want to have to make but one I can understand others taking.

Excellent post Harley. I agree with every word.

I agree with Harley and Carrington.

PTS is not the worst fate that can befall a dog. 

> xmlns>Sorry Carrington but euthanasing healthy pups...come on !

What do you suggest they do then Celtic Lad?

Keep all the puppies, but not actually have time or space for them all, so they end up undersocialised, undertrained, possibly under exercised, maybe scrapping amongst themselves and generally living a miserable life?

Give them to a rescue - who may not be aware of the breeds needs and rehome to unsuitable people (it happens!), or even if they ARE experienced and capable with the breed, it still means however many spaces NOT available for other dogs needing homes.. what if they can't rehome them either, perhaps it isnt the price it is purely that no one wants this particular breed.

Is it better that the pups sit in a rescue kennels for a few months, again becoming more and more unsocialised and untrained, and then finally the rescue has them pts? I don't think that is a solution, it is just passing the problem on, making them someone ELSES problem.

Dogs have no concept of the future, if they are suffering either mentally or physically, that is ALL they know - they have no ability to think 'ah but thats just for now, maybe tomorrow someone will come and rehome me'..

Whilst I am sure these puppies are not suffering NOW, there is a real chance they will do soon if they are not rehomed, or will do if rehomed to the wrong people. Part of being a responsible breeder is making sure that suffering NEVER happens, and I fully believe that sometimes, having a puppy PTS is the better option.

Hi theemx I suggest not putting a healthy pup to sleep.

I'm not comfortable with pups being PTS but having read through the posts, I agree it can be the better option. It enrages me that people are so casual and irresponsible about having litters with no thought about the long term welfare.

> If the breeder cannot find suitable homes for the pups - and there is a huge difference between a suitable home and any old home- and is not able to keep a large number of puppies and ensure that every one of them is well socialised and can be trained on an individual basis then yes having the pups PTS might be the only responsible option left open to them.

Absolutely agree.

>

> I suggest not putting a healthy pup to sleep.

Then you'd prefer the pup to have an unhappy life in an unsuitable home. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but breeders who care for their pups' longterm welfare, and not just making a fast buck from cutesy puppies, would disagree with that.

> Hi theemx I suggest not putting a healthy pup to sleep.

What would you do with a whole litter of puppies then if you were in the same situation?  PTS is a last resort and not a decision that would be taken lightly but if you have an alternative viable solution what would that be?