my six and half month westie is having her first season - started last saturday, yesterday the `boys` were waiting outside the house - trying & succeeding  to get into our garden but luckily Bella hasnt been in the garden alone since she sarted. She gets agitated when she sees the other dogs, howling & huffing through the window- my question is :- is it safe to take her for a walk? i am worried obviously due to our location she`s attracting stray/wild male dogs and not sure how mannerly they will be with her and me? Am i mean to keep her in the garden for the next 7-10days? Advice please.

This reminds me of when I was a child, the dogs would que up at the door. One dog with long hair froze to the step, my mum had to pour hot water on the step to free him. the dogs would follow my sister & myself whenever we went out. We had bad scratches on our arms where the dogs would 'mate' our arms. Once my mum walk us (and the pack of dogs) to the police station so they could see what we had to put up with. Nowadays, we are luckier to have dog wardens & there is more 'intrest' in stray dogs. I should phone the local dog warden and let her know. it would help if you also keep your step free of you bitches smell, tcp would be good. poss carry her from the house before letting her walk. maybe take her in the car to a quiet spot? or if worst comes to worse, keep her in if you dont think you can deal with it.

I've always walked in season bitches very early in the morning 5-7am to avoid other dogs, alas if you have loose dogs you can't even do that. :-(  There is no knowing how other dogs will react especially if these are born strays they will probably be far more pushy and may begin to fight and frighten her, come her second season she will probably be as interested in getting to them too.

Looks as though you can not leave her alone for a second, so garden exercise for your girl, get her to play retrieve games to help burn a little excess energy off, the strays will continue to get into your garden they can pick up your girls scent and will stop at nothing so you'll have to never take your eyes off her.

The only other thing you can do is travel out to places where dogs are likely to be on lead, or where you can completely avoid them, but even so your probably best to stick to your garden, it won't do her any harm and it will keep her safe. :-)

I refuse to keep my girls locked away for 3 weeks twice a year, so i either take them on their usual walks and carry a big stick with me to fend off horny males lol, or i put them in the car and take them to secluded fields that not many other dog owners go to.
Secluded fields is the best bet then you wont get into fights with other dog owners for hitting their dogs with a stick.
If everyone kept their dogs on leads in public everyone would get along fine, but in my experience, you will always run into other owners who think they have more rights than everyone else and their dogs should be allowed to roam off leash.

Have people noted that our OP is in Romania where in places there are a lot of strays, so no owners to connect with and possibly no dog wardens either, stray dogs are often left to just roam. :-)

Thank you everyone .. & especially Carrington .. it is rather difficult here - i think i will play safe and we will stay together in the garden - I just dont trust these wild dogs they look a rough bunch :/

Good decision your girl is more important to keep safe than giving her her usual walk, she'll be absolutely fine. :-)

Secluded fields is the best bet then you wont get into fights with other dog owners for hitting their dogs with a stick.

You can't go around hitting other people's dogs with sticks, an in season bitch is your responsibility and yours alone not the population of other dog owners to look out for.

Your walking around with the biggest aphrodisiac you can find it's like walking along with a huge steak on lead and not expecting other dogs to investigate, it won't just be un-neutered males, neutered dogs even bitches will come to investigate. Dogs are acting on instinct.

You simply don't take in season bitches where there is a possibility of other dogs getting to her, but to hit other people's dogs is so wrong.

if she started her season last saturday 18 June .. how much longer will she be `irresistable` ? as yesterday (day 10) was the first day ive had dogs camped outside and i know they have been in the area as we`ve seen them in the distance on our walks.

due to your location and the lack of control and amount of semi feral/latchkey canines and the ever present risk of RAbies I would not take your bitch for walks until 4 weeks after her season started.

I would endeavour to dog proof your won garden, but even then only take her out there on the lead.

Remember bitches are just as ken sometimes to find a mate and she cannot be trusted to not follow here instincts either, so keep her on the lead and watched while she goes out for toilet breaks.

Carrington
I agree my dogs are my responsibility which is why they are always kept on leashes in public. It's irrelevant in my opinion wether it's an in season bitch, a reactive male, or a dog that just wants to run over without invitation and play with another dog. Every dog owner should leash their dogs in public because they have the same responsibilities as me and everyone else does. If you choose to let your dogs roam free and bother other owners in public then you have to assume responsibility for the consequences and not blame those who's dogs are under control.
A public place is public, so everyone has the right to be there (regardless).

This is an emotive topic for me because of what i have to go through everyday with the carefree owners where i live and their annoying untrained dogs that are always off leash on our walks. I get all sorts of dogs charging at mine, and many stand directly in my path and issue the first challenge, and i'm sick to death of visits from the dog warden saying "someone complained about your big dogs acting aggressively".

I really don't see why someone with an in season female should have to stay at home because of other peoples loose dogs, and i know i won't be doing it anytime soon or in the future.

If someone lets their dog roam free in public and they haven't got a 100% solid recall (in all situations) then it is "them" who are acting irresponsibly, not the person with a leashed-in season female, or the person with a leashed reactive male.
Also, I dont' make a habit of hitting dogs with sticks and i've never done it yet, but if someones off leash dog tried to attack one of mine, or a loose male tried to mount one of my females and it was out of its owners control, i would do what i neded to do in that situation to make the dog "bugger off"..quick.
Sorry if you don't like what i've said, but i never allow my dogs to be a nuisance in public and i've got very little patience for other owners who think they've got more rights in public than other dog owners have,

> and carry a big stick with me to fend off horny males lol

uk boerboels, just sticking an 'lol' on the end of that statement doesn't make it any more acceptable.

> If everyone kept their dogs on leads in public everyone would get along fine, but in my experience, you will always run into other owners who think they have more rights than everyone else and their dogs should be allowed to roam off leash

There are many public places such as parks and commons where it is permissible to have a dog off leash and to imply that others owners are at fault when you are towing an in-season bitch around suggest that it's you who "think you have more rights than everyone else".  YOU know your bitch is in season, there will be many other dog owners in the vicinity who have no clue their dog (or bitch) is at risk of being hit with a stick for approaching you and your bitch.

As you say - secluded fields are the safest. NOT because you can then hit another persons dog without being seen but because your bitch has less chance of meeting other dogs. 

>A public place is public, so everyone has the right to be there (regardless).

In law, the 'public' is a term which only applies to humans, not animals.

If the law says that dogs can be offlead in an area then you must expect to meet offlead dogs. If you object to this then you need to walk somewhere else. You have no more rights than anyone else.

uk boerboels,

I can read your frustration and can partly agree with some of your points, but were talking of in season bitches, which is a totally different kettle of fish, your instigating problems and situations by taking such a bitch where others may be free running.

I live in the countryside but even when my bitch has been in season and I've gone out at 5am to avoid other dogs (I'm likely to bump into mainly entire dogs here) on a very rare occasion a dog will come bounding over, my girl is always on a longline when in season I would never have her free running even here, I just simply get her to sit, I stand behind her so that the dog can't even get a sniff in and if I'm happy I'll grab the dogs collar and wait for the owner to come explaining the situation or I'll frantically wave them to come get their dog. But even then after the dog is put on lead, I'll make my way home, because it's not the fault of the owner exercising their dog that I have an in season bitch, why should their dog miss out on exercise because of mine and even if the dog is let go 10 mins after I know it will follow us.

So I'll go home and my girl is just as happy with garden exercise, it hasn't happened very often, but it's my problem no-one else's. :-)

> A public place is public, so everyone has the right to be there (regardless).
>
>

I'm sorry there are places that dogs are allowed off lead and those places (mostly open spaces, including fields) are not places where someone should take an in season bitch.

the owner of the bitch is in possession of facts that the loose dog owner is not, and nature dictates that dogs will take an interest in in season bitches, and this may override all training.

Obviously dogs are required to be kept on lead near roads, and in my own area with a Dog warden ensuring loose dogs are collected and owners required to pay a hefty daily fee to get them back, dogs are rarely allowed to roam.

I have no problem lead walking my girls around the roadways but would never dream of taking them to off lead walking areas, as it simply is not fair to other dog owners, not to mention putting my girls at risk.

it is totally different in many countries overseas (this was what it was like in Poland in my childhood visiting relatives) where the attitude to dogs is more like the situation with pet cats in this country where they are simply allowed to do their own thing, and many are actually living feral too..

>there will be many other dog owners in the vicinity who have no clue their dog (or bitch) is at risk of being hit with a stick for approaching you and your bitch.

Why would their dogs approach uk boerboel's dog, when she is on the lead?  Any dog approaching an on-lead dog can expect to receive something unpleasant from that dog, whether a bite (because the dog was on lead due to being aggressive), or an owner protecting their in-season bitch!

Sorry but I completely agree with uk boerboels on this one - the subject has come up quite recently on another thread, where I also argued what uk boerboels is arguing.  (Without the big stick aspect of it.)

Dogs should be under control in a public place.  Dogs should have a bombproof recall.  Controversially, that includes a recall from bitches in season.  It is not impossible; it is perfectly achievable.  Yes, it is like training your dog to be recalled from a tasty steak, but of course that is also possible.  As is training your dog to carry a hotdog sausage, to wait before its dinner, and to show self-restraint.  I walk my bitches off lead when in season, and as soon as I spy another dog coming, I recall them and they come - always - and I put them on the lead.  Sometimes the other dog also comes, because *sigh* many owners don't train their dogs to recall from such high distractions...

Who is in the right, here then?  Everyone has a right to walk, everywhere (in public areas), and the law states that dogs must be under control.  My dog came immediately to me when called.  The OP's didn't. 

If I need to take physical action to prevent someone's untrained dog from mating my under control and on-lead bitch, then I will have to do that.  I don't carry a big stick, but I would resort to anything I had to, to prevent an unwanted mating - yes.

If you have a male dog which you cannot prevent from approaching in-season bitches, then this is your responsibility.  Deal with it either through training - and yes, it is possible to 'borrow' some friends' in-season bitches and practise recalls using a long line - and to practise recalls from incredibly tasty things which the dog wants - or, if you fail at the training, through prevention - you need to be calling *him* back when you spot other dogs, because you don't know if they are in season or not.  Your out of control dog is *your* responsibility, not the bitch owner's, who has her bitch on a lead. 

People choose to own intact males, capable of siring litters.  If you don't want that responsibility, get your dog neutered so at least it's not going to give the bitch owner too much of a heart attack when he runs up to her on-lead bitch. 

Finally, no dog should be allowed to run up to another dog on lead.  If an owner deems it necessary to put their dog on a lead, there could be numerous reasons why they are doing so.  An in-season bitch is not a carte blanche for male dogs to be excused from any behaviour or disobedience or failure to respond.  It is another (very powerful) distraction which you must either train your dog to respond to, or use prevention to try to avoid.  Either way, you are responsible for *your* dog.

If you own it, control it.  That goes for owners of both male and female dogs.

> Dogs should have a bombproof recall.  Controversially, that includes a recall from bitches in season.  It is not impossible; it is perfectly achievable. 

Any training to be anything like reliable needs practise, and training male dogs to ignore in season bitches is not something that most people can train for.

The majority of male dog owners will rarely encounter an in season bitch in a controlled situation, and few owners would wish to train them to ignore an in season bitch preferring they never encounter one.

It is the bitch that comes in season just twice a year, it is the bitch that is at risk of pregnancy or infection and ti is the bitches owner that should take responsibility, and it is totally unreasonable to expect male dog owners to share this. 

For the bitch owner it's a little inconvenience twice a year, this attitude could make things difficult for male dog owners all year round, make males now aware of the opposite sex in 'that way' more likely to show male to male dominance/aggression etc.

The only male dogs I wish my bitches to encounter unleashed are the studs I have chosen for their litters.

Most dogs are not trained to such a high degree that they can ignore probably the most imperative drive in nature.

I have seen the effect on male dogs of just being aware of an in season bitch in the same household or a close neighbour, not eating, getting testy with male house-mates etc.  Why would someone deliberately and unnecessarily subject their dog to that just so the owner of a bitch is free to walk where they please.

As a bitch owner (only own bitches) I believe it is far more responsible and considerate to keep my in season bitches out of the way.

In my experience, few dogs are trained to such a high degree that they could be recalled from rat poison, or from someone tempting them at a distance with a toy, or from any number of other distractions. 

I disagree that an in-season bitch somehow represents a separate category of distraction which it is impossible for a dog to respond when in the presence of.  If you show me a dog which can be recalled from pate, garlic sausage, a person teasing them with a tuggy toy, a playful dog and a hare running - yet which cannot be recalled from an in-season bitch - then I'd have to believe you.  Until I see a dog which is well-trained under all the former distractions, yet still cannot respond when an in-season bitch is present, then I continue to believe that an in-season bitch is not somehow existing in another category all together.

After all, yes it is a strong drive - but so is the drive to hunt and to eat.  Arguably the latter are stronger, since a dog must be well-fed to bear litters and a drive for food is about survival.

But all this is by-the-by, because even if it *is* in a different category altogether, that doesn't mean the male dog owner is somehow not responsible for their dog and there are other precautions they can take when they spot another dog.  Such as, if it is called and put on lead, not letting their dog run up to it.  (You would be surprised the number of people who make no *attempt* to call their dog when the OP does that.) 

I know of a dog which sadly was run over because it ran across the road, having scented a bitch in season on the other side.  Enough said about the need to control your own dog against the distractions which exist in the world - one of which is in-season bitches.  The law makes no exception for in-season bitches confronting stud dogs, it simply states that dogs must be under control. 

If my dog ran and mugged an old lady eating her sandwiches, under the law I would not be able to make an argument that it was the old lady's fault for eating her tempting sandwiches there - it would be my dog's fault.  So if a male dog runs and mugs an on-lead bitch, the argument that it is the bitch owner's fault for having her tempting dog there is not going to stand up - it is the male dog's fault - *he* is not under control.

The OP's situation is toitaly different, we are talking of a culture where dogs are free roaming and/or feral, now owner in sight and certainly no training.

I will never agree with your assertion that people should walk in season bitches in areas where dogs are running free.  I certainly would not put my bitch at risk on the hope that most dogs are highly trained, I know mine aren't, and I work within those limitations.

Boerbels,

An intact male that responds to a bitch in season is not a reactive male, his is a natural and normal response to his hormones. It is difficult, well nigh impossible to train some of the more reactive breeds to ignore the drive to procreate, stronger than any other drive in nature.

Assuming that you agree that there is a need for some male dogs to be left intact, I think your notion that you can walk your in season bitch out an about and simply beat off interested dogs, is outrageous.

Dogs have to be left off in the park and in open fields in order to socialize and develop a full repertoire of doggie communication skills. I would not be happy to keep my dog on the lead for the rest of his life simply because he is intact and might show interest in an in-season bitch. That said, I always carry a long line and if, as happens, you get the odd lunatic that thinks it is a great idea to walk a bitch in season all around the local park, sometimes off lead too, then my dog goes on a long line.

I do not believe that in-season bitches should be locked away, but they can be walked on lead in areas where all other dogs are likely to be kept on lead too, thus reducing stress levels all round as well as the risk of an accident. I would agree, however, that those who walk their dogs off-lead on public streets are beyond the pale.

> Deal with it either through training - and yes, it is possible to 'borrow' some friends' in-season bitches and practise recalls using a long line

What an astonishingly irresponsible thing to suggest!

> I do not believe that in-season bitches should be locked away, but they can be walked on lead in areas where all other dogs are likely to be kept on lead too, thus reducing stress levels all round as well as the risk of an accident. I would agree, however, that those who walk their dogs off-lead on public streets are beyond the pale.

Agree totally.

>In my experience, few dogs are trained to such a high degree that they could be recalled from rat poison, or from someone tempting them at a distance with a toy, or from any number of other distractions. 

>I disagree that an in-season bitch somehow represents a separate category of distraction which it is impossible for a dog to respond when in the presence of.

We need to remember that our dogs are animals, with animal instincts, not 'fur-babies' with human morals. The instinct to reproduce is innate in any  successful species (otherwise it would very quickly become extinct!) - it overrides just about any other instinct; something we forget at our peril!

Each owner is responsible for their dog not becoming a nuisance to others. An in-season bitch is just as much a nuisance to dog owners as an untrained hooligan dog is. As a bitch owner it's my responsibility to keep my in-season bitch safe and out of harm's way. I certainly don't have the right to upset other people's dogs by parading temptation in their faces!

The thing is rabid, most of us spend our lives meeting unreliable dogs/bitches, 'deaf' adolescents, owners who never even train the basics, they are everywhere. Yes, I would love everyones dogs to be trained to a high standard as myself and many of us on the board do, or kept on longlines until they do, but it is just not realistic to expect that, most dog owners have never used a whistle a clicker or know how to teach a dog and training classes what are they?

Instead of having the attitude of 'well I do it, so you should do it' and not budging from that stance it is far better to be aware of unreliable dogs and owners. It's the same when driving, I'm constantly looking out for people not concentrating, reversing or pulling out without looking.

Most of us here would recall a dog when passing one on lead, my immediate thoughts would be aggression, in season, fearful, medical problem, but other people don't........ which is why an in-season bitch I would just naturally protect myself not expect others to do so.

Unfortunately, we can't force people to train their dogs properly, so we just have to make sure ours are safe. :-)

Rabid,

A dog will forgo food and water and anything else to get to a bitch.

The flaw in your argument about training is that in the normal course of puppy/dog training where is the stock of in-season bitches that you can train your dog to ignore. Moreover, if your dog is to be used at stud the sort of training you advocate could make it difficult for him to perform in future. 

When my bitch is in season she will spend most of her exercise time in the garden - definitely the week she is most receptive to any male dog.  At other times she is walked in a field where we don't come across other dogs and she stays on lead - just incase she decides to do a runner....yes she has a reliable recall but I do not expect my dogs to be robots and an in season bitch can act very differently than she does at other times.  Also if for any reason someone's male dog came running over and pestered mine, i would hold my hands up and apologise....that in my opinion is my fault for taking her out when in season. 
Once up the field one of our boys was sniffing around a bitch (she was off lead) and the man came at him with a stick!!  He was ranting and raving that she was in season...he should never have had her running off lead in a very public field which always has dogwalkers at all times of the day.

The the person who raised this question I think it is very sensible of you to keep your bitch safe in your garden under supervision until her season has finished as you are in an area with stray dogs.

Sorry if my opinions have caused offence to some but i stand by what i have said.
I've got no more rights than anyone else, but vice-versa, neither have "they".

In a perfect world this would be settled by 50/50 mutual compromise and both sides understanding that there will be many times throughout each year when their male will scent a female somewhere, and peoples females will come across loose males during their seasons, so both sides should remain vigilant and responsible in public and always expect the unexpected. Putting a leash on ends any chance of anything ever happening for "either" side, and if people want to run their dogs loose somewhere and let them be free, all they have to do is go into a empty field somewhere (or exercise in their own back gardens like some have suggested that other owners should do with their in seasons females).
Good for the goose, good for the gander??  !!!

For the record, i don't take my girls to obvious places like parks and commons when they're in season. The walks i take them on are along main roads mainly, down 2 country lanes, and also across 2 rarely used fields. The country lanes are through roads for traffic and not really places you would expect to see a dog off leash, but the local numpties round here seem to be oblivious to that fact and see it as their own personal country walk. There is a dedicated dog park/playground literally 2 minutes down the lane where people can run their dogs off leash if they want (if they've socialised them well enough), but it seems thats just not good enough for some of the people round here and they want to walk their dogs off leash wherever they bloody well choose to.
These are the dogs i simply wont tolerate and if their owners want to let them cause a nuisance, i'll take matters into my own hands if they leave me with no alternatives.

Rabid seems to be the only one that understands me so atleast i know i'm not totally alone in my thoughts, but if others think differently that's ok, no problem, you're all allowed your own opinions.

> but if others think differently that's ok, no problem, you're all allowed your own opinions.

The issue of course is that this is an open forum where people sometimes come for advice.  Having opinions is one thing but to give voice to those opinions and advocate hitting dogs with a stick, swearing, or suggesting in-season bitches are used for training dogs (rabid), is unwise when you have no control over the 'audience' for your views.

> and if people want to run their dogs loose somewhere and let them be free, all they have to do is go into a empty field somewhere (or exercise in their own back gardens like some have suggested that other owners should do with their in seasons females).
> Good for the goose, good for the gander?

That has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on here, and we've seen some corkers :-)

What a terribly sad world it would be if no dogs were off lead outside their owners property. Suggesting that keeping a bitch in her own garden for 3 weeks twice a year is the same as a dog only ever getting to play in its own garden is frankly ridiculous.

Chaumsong

If you think it's a ridiculous comment, then that's what you think.
If no dogs were seen off lead the world would be "better" in my opinion, not sadder, as none would cause nuisance to the other owners who are out walking their dogs under control, and just minding their own business. The exception would be "properly" trained dogs, as they are a pure joy to watch and i really respect owners with that level of control in public.

I've no wish to argue with you, and i don't know what type of dogs you own, but big active dogs do not do well locked away in gardens and it doesn't do anything positive for their mental state either. In the case of my dogs, if they dont get out and about daily and receive lots of new and exciting stimulation, they quickly turn into huge problems, start misbehaving, and generally cause havoc all over the house.
Living with stir crazy boerboels is not high on my "to do" list, thanks,....but i'll gladly leave my females at your house next season if you think you're equipped to handle the task. lol

> What a terribly sad world it would be if no dogs were off lead outside their owners property. Suggesting that keeping a bitch in her own garden for 3 weeks twice a year is the same as a dog only ever getting to play in its own garden is frankly ridiculous.

Very selfish view too, so that the in season bitch does not have to be restricted for a few weeks a year the rest of the canine population should be kept on lead full time because they would find such a bitch in most cases impossible to resist.

>If no dogs were seen off lead the world would be "better" in my opinion, not sadder,

It would be appalling, IMO. Dogs which are never allowed off the lead to socialise with others of their own species only have half a life, and that aspects is contrary to the Animal Welfare Act.

Now, the world would be a better place if fewer humans were allowed out off the lead and without a responsible keeper ...

>but big active dogs do not do well locked away in gardens and it doesn't do anything positive for their mental state either.

It's not different to when they've been in contact with an infectious illness, or they've had surgery and are on restricted exercise, or even when they go into kennels. It's temporary.

> If no dogs were seen off lead the world would be "better" in my opinion, not sadder, as none would cause nuisance to the other owners who are out walking their dogs under control,

> but big active dogs do not do well locked away in gardens and it doesn't do anything positive for their mental state either.

These two statements are in direct conflict.

On the one hand you would prefer dogs never be off lead when out of their own garden, yet say that exercise in their own garden is insufficient.

Dogs that in normal circumstances can be safely off lead in safe off lead areas away from roads, who are sociable and have good canine communication skills, may not have perfect recall, or may be part trained etc.

When you are training your dog or puppy does it never make a mistake, get distracted.  My training skills are very poor as I have never been able to get 100% obedience to commands, but manage well enough within our limitations.  There are places I would never let any of mine off, there are places some are reliable enough not to cause issues, all absolutely reliable in smaller fenced areas like gardens or tennis courts) but none are robots and 100% reliable in all situations (especially woodland with wildlife), so I am careful which situations I deem safe for anything other than on lead control.

Mine is an independent hunting breed, and a primitive Spitz, so other dogs toys would not be an issue, sparring with other canines ditto, unless actually attacked, on the other hand they are likely to range ahead, so livestock (they are Town dogs so would find them more exciting), food waste etc would be issues I would be worried about, and if I had a male then entire bitches too, even my girls get very fruity with in season bitches, and enjoy their train games.

Hmm I just looked at your website Boerboels. It's clear from that that you are hoping to breed dogs with an 'extremely low tolerance of strangers', dogs with a 'natural potential to attack bite and hold' combined with 'immense power and strength'. I agree your dogs should never be off lead, but for the rest of us that hope to have sociable, friendly companions then off lead meeting of different dogs is a necessity and a big part of the joy of dog walking. I would hope that you don't walk your dogs anywhere but on pavements and secure fields, where they are unlikely to come into contact with off lead dogs.

>(or exercise in their own back gardens like some have suggested that other owners should do with their in seasons females).
>Good for the goose, good for the gander??  !!!

> but big active dogs do not do well locked away in gardens and it doesn't do anything positive for their mental state either. In the case of my dogs, if they dont get out and about daily and receive lots of new and exciting stimulation, they quickly turn into huge problems, start misbehaving, and generally cause havoc all over the house.

uk boerboels - it appears that you do not even agree with yourself.  It's a little contrary to expect one rule for you and another for everyone else :)
 

I may be wrong, but I always believed it was the bitch owner's reponsibility to keep her safe and not traumatised by unwelcome advances from male dogs.  We've only ever had bitches and when in season they are walked on roads early and late in the day with plenty of ball chasing in the garden.  We sometimes risk an empty beach if it's winter time.  I would much rather my bitches didn't have the stress or temptations of dogs while in season, therefore it is my responsibility to look after her.

> therefore it is my responsibility to look after her.

> I always believed it was the bitch owner's reponsibility to keep her safe

Yep, me too :-)  And keeping her safe doesn't include hitting other dogs with a big stick!

>It's clear from that that you are hoping to breed dogs with an 'extremely low tolerance of strangers', dogs with a 'natural potential to attack bite and hold' combined with 'immense power and strength'. I agree your dogs should never be off lead

Quite right; one would hope only friendly, sociable dogs with sound, safe temperaments, regardless of the level of training, were off lead in public places.

Brainless, there's no direct conflict or contradiction in what i said.

My own dogs could not be exercised in an average back garden, but a poodle or jack russel probably could.
I run my dogs in a paddock and a riding arena, but when i take them out in public i expect them to walk calmly, behave, and absorb the training and social skills that i'm part way through instilling into them.

All i have said is that if someone wants to let a dog loose around other people and other dogs, it should be properly trained by its owner first and taught right from wrong. Keeping a dog on a lead doesn't prevent it from being socialised. You can still walk over to other owners (with permission) and introduce the dogs to each other, they can still play on a leash, and they can still socially interact and learn canine behaviour but under the close supervision of their owners.

I guess its probably easier and less worrying for owners of smaller breeds as theyre easier to handle and less damage can be done in a clash, but you must understand that big dog owners have a much more serious responsibility to the public and other owners.....because if someones off leash "yapper" decides to charge these types of dogs, or even launch a pathetic attack, or try to mount a female whilst its owner is 200 metres away , what do you think will happen to the dog that's not under control and who will take responsibility in the event of a serious injury to it??.

Whilst i know full well that a lot of dog owners walk around in "la la land" and don't understand their duties as owners.... i dont accept that i and others have to deal with the nusiance they cause other dog owners just because they "want" to let their dogs off leash.

Ths is a no win discussion and we're never going to agree.

> they can still play on a leash

?? No, not unless both owners are Olympic athletes who can run as fast a dog would in natural free play.

....i've said all i wanted to say,"some" don't agree, and that's ok with me.
Its just turning into a silly argument now and heading down a rocky path.

I'm done, thanks.

boerbels,

Agree, antagonistic terriers can be a pain- though not in the literal sense as a great a pain as a large dog with greater bite force. However, you really are incorrect about exercise. Anyone who knows terriers will tell you that they need a lot of exercise and stimulation to stop them becoming a handful. JRT's and other terriers are often from working stock- many of these dogs will not do well being confined to gardens all of their lives. Poodles are also very bright and need more than just a quick gamble in the garden.

> I guess its probably easier and less worrying for owners of smaller breeds as theyre easier to handle and less damage can be done in a clash, but you must understand that big dog owners have a much more serious responsibility to the public and other owners.....

I agree with this. My dog (English Mastiff) is kept on a lead or long-line, simply due to public perception (even thoguh he is well beahved and stranger & animal friednly). However, I think it is completely unreasonable to expect everybody to keep thier dogs on-lead when out.

It was MY choice to have such a dog, so it's MY responsibilty that he poses no trouble to others (his mere presence is enough to bother people, so DAILY I need to go out of my to allow poeple to pass without worry). Pity everybody doesn't think that way :(

My dog is an entire male, as he is kept on a long-line there is no danger of him pestering any other dog, including in-season bitches. That does not stop the fact that HE has been pestered by in-season bitches, but I could not bring myself to hit them to keep them away I simply concentrate my efforts in controlling MY dog.

I can understand a lot of points you've raised and luckily your large breed can get their exercise in a paddock and riding area. I too can exercise mine and family dogs in areas not frequented by other dogs for training and free run purposes, along with country walks to meet and greet, but that is a luxury that not everyone has. I understand that and I think you need to be a little more open to how others have a lack of amenities to free run and train. The dog walks you meet many dogs on are their only free run walks, the only places they get to practice their training,  not everyone has the same luxuries. 

Many people also have breeds they do not understand and can not control a huge bugbear of mine from large to small dogs and many breeds play in different ways I agree larger breeds often can not socialise in the same way until the owner has a good hold on training and commands as it so easy for a large dog to basically flatten or hurt a smaller breed if too excited, not to mention the many times a dog has sent me flying thinking it can jump all over me, but I take it in my stride they are usually adolescents and not owned by people who can train as quickly and as well as I would.

I also see too many fat labs, because as adolescents they have been too bouncy and instead of popping them on a longline to train recall and give some free run they pop them on normal leads and just walk a breed that needs to run and is social.

Lots of bad habits everywhere and lack of understanding.

But because we know this and you obviously know this too, adding an in season bitch into the mix too is madness.