Okay, bear with me for some background information please.

I had an extremely distraught bitch owner on the phone at the weekend, and I really would like to help her if I can.  She had phoned me on Friday last, as her bitch was at day 63 and our breed just never goes full term.  I advised that I would go for an x-ray, simply because one of my girls once had 2 pups stuck side by side in the same uterine horn, and I told this friend that I would want to rule out any malpresentations.

Her vet said it wasn't necessary, and to wait longer.  She was then up all night, and the bitch whelped naturally - 4 puppies.  I have seen the photographs.  Last pup had an extremely bad cleft palate, worst I had ever seen.  She asked me what to do, and I was totally honest with her.  She took mum for a check up at the same time that she had the pup PTS.  Bitch had only lost 2 afterbirths, and she asked for oxytocin, this was Saturday.  The vet said it wasn't necessary, and to leave the bitch, she would probably expel them in 24 hours.

Can anyone tell me if this is the new way of thinking?  I have never had a retained afterbirth, but would automatically have asked for oxytocin if it happened to me.  Was I wrong to tell her that?

Still no afterbirths have turned up, and a visit to the vet today produced no help either, she was told that the bitch had probably reabsorbed the retained placentas, as she had no temperature.  Has anyone got any comments on whether this is new practise?

Her bitch had had very bad diahorrea around week 5 of pregnancy, and Protexin hadn't worked.  She was prescribed metronidazole.  Now, I was of the opinion that this was not suitable for puppies or pregnant bitches.  Naturally, the friend has started to wonder if this caused the poorly pup.  She is so distraught that she will never breed again.  She feels that she trusted the vet, and wants to ensure that nobody else should be put through this trauma.  Ater speaking to a senior partner, and asking outright if this drug is safe, he has looked it up - and said no.  While the other vet has said it's ok in her book!  Different books obviously.

Should she, as her hubby wants, try to sort it out with this vet practise, or stop upsetting herself?  I am very close to this person, and feel as emotional as her.  I know all her dogs, and have been friends with her for years, so I am feeling her pain.

I haven't really got any answers but I have a few observations. I have a toy litter at the moment, also 4 pups (never expected as many) they are 7 weeks old now. I never saw the last two afterbirths appear and no I didn't go to the vet. My feeling was they appeared and got eaten without me noticing, during the night. Certainly the bitch has been 100 % fine ever since.

As far as cleft palates go, many years ago I had a litter of kittens where two of four had cleft palates, and a third had a different deformity (twisted hindlegs), the fourth appeared normal but in the event only lived for 5 years and was infertile. Roy Robinson the geneticist was still alive then and I contacted him for help. He said that if you get one kitten/puppy/whatever with a cleft palate, chances are it's just "one of these things" or possibly a genetic disposition, but when you get more than one, and especially when you get more than one type of deformity in the same litter, then outside influences (medication or anything else) is the likely cause. (Interestingly, the house next door had been extensively renovated during the queen's early pregnancy with a lot of builders dust entering our house.) I.e. I would not immediately think that just ONE affected pup was caused by unsuitable medication, I'd expect to see more affected then.

I then had a second litter, about 10 years later, where there were one cleft palate, one harelip and one normal kitten other than a severely kinked tail. The cleft palate one was PTS, the harelip one I bottlefed as he could not suckle, then when 6 weeks old he literally just dropped dead -I was heartbroken as I'd got so attached to him. (I even buried him with his bottle between his paws, it just seemed wrong not to.) The third kitten thrived and went to a pet home. Soon after this a top Canadian vet very much into cat breeding, genetics etc was speaking at a seminar here and I took the opportunity to ask her about my litter. She said the same as Roy Robinson had done, that with more than one kitten affected, and more than one type of deformity, outside influences is the most likely cause -and apparently over heating during pregnancy is a common cause of cleft palates. (And guess what, the queen had slept on top of the fire.) She said to breed from her again and I'd probably never have another problem. She had another 3 litters and all were normal.

I really appreciate your response Marianne.  I am going to pass this on to my friend.  If nothing else, I feel that telling her your story, may help her to accept that it's not just medication that can cause these things.  I do understand why you buried your little one with his bottle.  It is so difficult to make some people understand how very, very painul these losses can be.  Certainly I have people who know me that don't understand, but they don't have animals, and don't see the need!

Some of us just need them!  Anyway, I am going to pass on your comments, and thank you very much.

Thirty years ago I was obsessed with counting placentas, noting them down, calling the vet if any retained ( but then I used to call the vet at the end of every whelping for oxytocin to 'flush out')......this practice slipped and died out.

It has been at least 20 years since Ive even bothered to care about the numbers of afterbirths, I never have post natal vet visits and no drugs of any kind unless there has been a ceasar.

The canine womb ( in my experience) is a self cleaning organ and the less its interfered with the better IMO. Puppies drawing milk will cause natural contraction and shrinkage ...and like a toothpaste tube...it squeezes everything forward to the exit!

Just to add: Clinical studies on Flagyl and breastfeeding have shown that the drug passes through breast milk.

I have something in the back of my head that I was told by my Vet that it cannot be used. Have just found this on the internet.

Metronidazole can cause birth defects if given to a pregnant patient. It should never be administered during pregnancy

Sorry, I am sure she will be very upset. Quite honestly though she cannot blame herself, we all trust our Vets to know about drugs before they administer them.

I think at 5 weeks into the pregnancy the drug isn't going to be the problem as that part of foetal development would have been completed by then, it may be what ever caused the diarrhoea before the antibiotics were started that caused the deformity or just a genetic one off.

But it does say it should never be given to pregnant patients so there is a high likelihood that it may have caused the deformity.

Cleft palates occur during the first 3 weeks of pregnancy, it cannot be caused later on once the roof of the mouth has already formed.

Thanks Marrianne for confirming what I said about the palate being formed before 5 weeks 0f the pregnancy.

Well thankfully for this person it probably hasn't caused the cleft palate, but as is states that it shouldn't be used on pregnant patients and can cause deformities, perhaps the Vet should have used a safer AB on this occasion.