Brief resumes of the KCAB breeder advisors http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3654

I am not sure what you mean by camera happy.  They are going to be looking anyway what difference does it make if they take a picture as long as they are only using the images for their own purposes.
Is it the security aspect you are worried about? 
Did you discuss that with him and did he give you any reassurances?

Stooge, In stead of passing a remark like that, which makes my blood boil after what I went though at my inspection, look at the posts on page 2 which will explain why etc.

I live in a terraced house, I do not have a lot of money, but my place is clean and tidy my dogs are in good condition not over or under weight, I keep their food stored in the back hallway, and as I have to wash the dog dishes in my sink I have one bowl for their dishes and one for mine. The dogs are allowed free access to all areas of my house. I have a tiny flower garden at the front and the entire back garden is down to grass with a few trees at the end of the garden for shade. I am definitely not posh or have brand spanking new kitchen units, but the unit doors fit well so the dogs cannot get access to anything they should not have, (which if you think about it some products we enjoy i.e. chocolate are poisonous for dogs, others are not edible but just as deadly i.e. cleaning products), common sense really. I have been visited by Bill Lambert and am still a member of the ABS...

They write to ask if they can visit, if you say no they offer you three alternative dates and you are only suspended if you do not agree to one of these alternative dates.

I think if they were as lenient as they were we would all be refusing to be members and moaning, so now they are tightening up we cannot complain that we did not get what we were asking for.

> In stead of passing a remark like that, which makes my blood boil after what I went though at my inspection, look at the posts on page 2 which will explain why etc.

I have read all of page 2 and still do not the the difference in him looking at your home and photographing it as long as the photographs are only used for the purposes of recording the inspection.  

HE TOOK PICTURES OF MY THINGS, ORNAMENTS, GRANDFATHER CLOCKS ETC IT WAS TRULY AWFUL.  .

I have read all of page 2 and still do not the the difference in him looking at your home and photographing it as long as the photographs are only used for the purposes of recording the inspection

Could you please enlighten us as to what a grandfather clock and ornaments have to do with puppies and inspection of a home for housing dogs correctly.

> Could you please enlighten us as to what a grandfather clock and ornaments have to do with puppies and inspection of a home for housing dogs correctly.

I think it would be hard to photograph a room without included these things :)
I don't wish to be rude but perhaps the home was a little cluttered and he wanted to consider if this was going to be issue in keeping clean and safe when puppies and visiting families are about.  He is looking at things anyway so its a choice of taking notes or photographs.  I would not think either is any more of a security risk than the other.

> I think if they were as lenient as they were we would all be refusing to be members and moaning, so now they are tightening up we cannot complain that we did not get what we were asking for.

Exactly :) 

anitaavelineI have read all of page 2 and still do not the the difference in him looking at your home and photographing it as long as the photographs are only used for the purposes of recording the inspection.
 
  Date 24.06.11 12:57 GMT  see this one

>Date 24.06.11 12:57 GMT

This one?

>  bill lambert, who wrote me a letter saying it was totally necessary to do all the inspector did

I can see entirely why a report would give an overall description of the general impression of your house.  Not only does it serve to inform those who have the final decision that you have a normal family home that is in good general condition but I think this is also in your interest.  If a disgruntled buyer wished to make a complaint and chose to describe your house as bit of a bear pit they have the inspection document to check what it was actually like. 
As Polly and I have said, people did not seem to like it when inspections did not appear to be thorough enough.

So you think it is correct to take over 40 pictures, encluding my hay shed where I store the dry biscuit, right beside my ride on lawn mower which is new, he could not of helped getting this equipment in the picture. to take all pictures of my drawing room with all my china-clocks etc. Not everyone is as honest as you may think, these pictures are now at the kc for any old tom dick or harry to see, and my address will be their too, how do you know these details won't be passed on to another down the line to have me done over, and may even take the dogs, who knows these days. I have had NO assurances from anyone either, and the police have tried to get the pictures destroyed, to know avail. yes he asked if he could take A [one you think] picture, even my garden house gates etc etc, this is not right, it is so out of order. I will never ever join the abs again when my renew comes up.

This one?

let the kc know, i spoke and emailed c kisco who said she would personally deal with it, but she passed it on to bill lambert, who wrote me a letter saying it was totally necessary to do all the inspector did,and the inspector while doing my visit told me bill L did his inspection too. that has to be a joke. when the report came back to me, it started of, as if he was describing a house that had just come on the market for sale.  House name is positioned in a lovely part of----- it is a lovely situation in----the house is built----with this and that, then the area,shrubs grass lane etc all but the value of my home. the only thing he wanted me to do was lower the front gate to the lane,but as I pointed out, the dogs had to go through the garden gate first, and it was perfectly low enough. I have been breeding and showing my dogs for 40 odd years, all in my house. I am shocked and very dissappointed, the police did email the kc, but just to warn them it was she though rather un necessery to be so invasive, and to try and get the pictures deleted. In the wrong hands who know, anyone down the line can see addresses, contents dogs etc, it so awful. sorry about my spelling.

It does not seem odd to me at all that they would be interested in where you store feed.
I don't know what I can add to what I have already said, Anita.   These are professional people, I really doubt the KC are likely to engage people that will be "casing your joint" and, as I said, their notes would serve that purpose as well as photographs if that was what they were about.
If the KC passed this information on they would be in very serious trouble.  Are your nicknacks really worth that? :)
If you are a very private person then perhaps the scheme is not for you but it is clearly stated that inspection is to be expected when applying.

These are professional people, I really doubt the KC are likely to engage people that will be "casing your joint" and, as I said, their notes would serve that purpose as well as photographs if that was what they were about.

The inspector who came to me, all he wanted to do was tell me how he advertises on epups, and proud to do so

Oh yes, very professional, advertising his pups on EPUPZ. Maybe he has no faith in the KC Puppy List.!!

> Oh yes, very professional, advertising his pups on EPUPZ. Maybe he has no faith in the KC Puppy List.!!

Maybe he advertises on the KC list as well.  I don't really have a problem where people advertise.  It is how they vet their enquiries that count.

>Oh yes, very professional, advertising his pups on EPUPZ

I know several highly-respected people who advertise litters on there when they haven't got puppies for sale because then they can pass enquiries on to other reputable breeders, thus steering buyers away from the byb/puppy farmers.

Now you see I do have a problem with Epupz as I have seen (and reported) American Pit Bulls for sale on there.

> Now you see I do have a problem with Epupz as I have seen (and reported) American Pit Bulls for sale on there.

I'm guessing that is not what he breeds :) 
Nor does it mean everyone advertising on there is not a responsible breeder.

Unfortunately that is where puppy buyers look, so it behoves good breeders to have a presence/advertise giving them a better option and to show up how poor the other kind of breeders are.

Please can we get this back on track - I don't think it's fair to discuss individual ABS inspectors like this on a public forum and have edited out the name & also removed some off topic posts. Please can we keep this as general discussion on the ABS scheme only!

Thanks

Just tucking this onto the end, not replying to anyone in particular. I think it is most definitely acceptable for anyone who has had photographs taken of what they consider to be non-related parts of their house to contact the KC and ask why. (Although I'd have asked at the time!) If you look back at a recent thread where Yvonne (Trevor) had recently been inspected you will see what a different scenario was described, and tooolz also mentioned an inspector who mentioned internet rumours and how things were blown out of proportion.
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1232567;hl=inspection#pid1232567
If these two cases are the norm, then yes I WOULD ask why photos were taken of furniture etc -where's the harm in posing the question? Either an explanation will be given putting minds to rest or the KC can tell inspectors they have gone a step too far. 

just one more thing, I asked for a lady to inspect me, and was refused, that was another point, I am here on my own, I felt very intimidated in my own home, and went along with it all. I will never put my self in that position again.

> I felt very intimidated in my own home, and went along with it all.

Following what others have said I hope you now feel you could have rearranged the appointment and had a friend with you perhaps for next time...........if there is a next time :).

Following what others have said I hope you now feel you could have rearranged the appointment and had a friend with you perhaps for next time...........if there is a next time

I can assure you there will not ever be a next time

> I am here on my own, I felt very intimidated in my own home, and went along with it all.

Just out of interest, what happens when people come to buy your puppies - if you don't think they are the right people? Do you feel intimidated then, or are you able to cope with that. It's not unknown for unsavoury types to use the excuse of looking for a puppy to 'case the joint' and come back later to steal possessions, or even puppies!

I am very fortunate that I usually have a waiting list for puppies and get to know the potential new owners fairly well before they come to view puppies.

I did have someone enquire once who wanted to come immediately, their reasons for wanting a puppy didn't sound right to me so I didn't allow them to come.

Having several dogs, and not having to go out to work, my dogs are very seldom left alone so it would be diffficult for someone to break into my home - only occasion when having nosey neighbours is a blessing....  Also my puppies are raised within the home, not in a shed in the garden which will also deter - one certainly hopes so anyway.

When I do have people to view puppies, I let them leave saying to go home and really think about the commitment of having a puppy and if you are sure you want one of mine, you are totally happy with the way in which it's being raised, it's mum etc and I will also give you serious consideration for one of my precious babies.  I'm afraid if people get really pushy about this, it doesn't work in their favour.  Where you home a puppy is a huge decision and not one to be taken lightly.

well now, as I have been breeding for 40 years, I know over the phone,the second they start speaking, the back ground noise too helps. to not give them my address, and also if I am not sure about them I give a huge price, that can put them off too. this last litter I had a swiss lady with  boys 3 of them, well they were all under 12, but she kept on and I had already told her no, but in the end she persuaded me, so she came with her kids, ugh, they wallked in straight passed me, with out so much of a hello, so I said very firmly excuse me, but hello, and what are your names then, that bought them to a halt. some time later when they were on the sofa with a pup, one of the little s--ts was squeezing this pup so it was crying. the brat was laughing, so I took the pup away, looked at the parents and said that is why you won't be buying one of my pups. they really did apoligise the parents, so off they went, and I let several other friends know about them too. I don't know, but may be its because you are so protective about your babies, I find that easy to deal with.

Please could I ask again to keep this on topic - this thread is for discussing the ABS but if anyone wants to discuss other topics such as vetting potential puppy buyers, it's best to start a new thread

Thanks

Sorry, I didn't mean to stray off-topic. My point was rather that if the OP felt uncomfortable about a male inspector coming from the KC (someone who could be very easily checked up on) how did she feel when puppy buyers, who might not be so easily checked, were visiting her when she was alone.

This is one of those occasions where you'd love to hear the other persons side of the situation :-) dont you think?

Mmmm....

Hi All

I have read this with interest.  I have been in touch with the KC asking why they allow breeders to remain as Accedited Breeders when they are not following the guidelines.  There is someone who has bred a half brother half sister litter, the bitches hip score is 3 times the breed average and if you check the KC website for health tests it would appear that their eye tests aren't up to date.  The answer I got from Caroline Kiskoe is that basically they are only guideline and if people don't follow them then there is nothing they can do.  So to me it would appear that the KCABS is a waste of time and money and gives the general public false expectations.  When I have got over my shock of the response from the KC I will be replying asking why this breeder hasn't been removed from the scheme if they aren't following what is required of them.

T

There is nothing to prevent someone using a half sibling mating or using higher hip score (there may be good reason for doing so, it may be that the scores behind and litter-mates are all exemplary, there may have been an obvious no hereditary cause for the score to be high such as when you have a high sore one side with the more usual lower score on the other hip.  Hip dysplasia is a bilateral condition as regards heredity.

Also there are mandatory health tests and recommended health tests, and the person will not be allowed to stay on the scheme if they break the mandatory tests.

if you check the KC website for health tests it would appear that their eye tests aren't up to date.

I KNOW my dogs have had their eyes tested and have certificates to prove it, yet they do not always appear on the KC website - I have no idea why this is the case though.

Having looked back there are some very high hip scores in the line, the litter brother has a score nearly as high, they were the only two tested in the litter of 5.  In one of the responses from the KC with regards to eye testing is that if they use the ECVO eye testing which is acceptable under the AB scheme they are unable to put that on the website.  It is a requirement for this breed.  It was also interesting that the mother of this bitch had two litters of average size for the breed 8 mths apart.  The only reason I researched this line was due to seeing a litter advertised,  liked some of the breeding and had noticed it was half brother half sister, so did a bit more research and came up with the hip scores and also the COI was 17.?% 5 times the breed average. 

T

and also the COI was 17.?% 5 times the breed average. 

The hip scores don't sound good but the above I'd take with a HUGE pinch of salt indeed! the COIs given by mate select are not true to life at all, at least not for my breed. (One big problem is they don't have background on imports so any imports registered lowers it a lot.) Mine's given as 2.2 % which is ridiculous considering it is a breed where we always struggle to find stud dogs not too closely related. I went through all the dogs entered at Crufts this year and only 3 were 2.2 % or lower, all the others way above, average about 12 or so, up to 23 %.

> with regards to eye testing is that if they use the ECVO eye testing which is acceptable under the AB scheme they are unable to put that on the website. 

this is probably similar to the situation I have had when using overseas studs.

they do not put on the database and records no UK schemes (except international DNA ones like Optigen if they have been adopted here).

In fact with my recent litter even though I had supplied the dogs Optigen report I still had to show them that he had been hip scored, and was able to direct them to the US OFA website and database records for him.

anyone doing health checks on some of my dogs will have 'missing' health tests, but they aren't really just not UK ones.

As for how close a breeding is deemed acceptable that really is down to the breeders knowledge and circumstances, dogs involved etc.

My Inka is a half sibling mating resulting in 13.7% COI, which is why her litter was fathered abroad (COI 0.5%) as we have such a small gene pool at present. Doesn't help that the KC have our average COI as 4.1% based on just five litters born in 2010, the previous years registrations would have given completely different and higher.  With numerically small breeds they really need to calculate it on at least 5 years.