I have to voice my opinion on what I call bad judging at Blackpool. My puppy a toy breed had to go in to challenge one other bitch puppy for BPB. Picture the scene judge asks us to go round the ring my puppy who is behind the first puppy trots around quite happily however the other pup is quite nervous and goes around crawling - well known all round judge says to other exhibitor "She doesn't seem to like having a dog behind will you please both go seperately - the first puppy does again nervous and crawling, my little girl goes trotting round good style-get back to judge who says again to the other exhibitor "it's such a pity she showed very well in her class, would you like another try" obviously the other competitor said yeas please and again around we went judge putting me in front other puppy still crawling and nervous- I overhear judge now telling the steward "how well it went in it's class and what a shame it's not going now" to which the steward replies "that's just how things go" Well by this time I was spitting blood and very annoyed that obviously she wanted to give the BPB to this exhibitor and I felt like leaving the ring however didn't- you won't believe it but the judge had us go round the ring again another twice the puppy still not happy and crawling! On the second round judge goes to other exhibitor and says "Oh she haswoken up now, well done" and hands her the rosette!! Well I was fuming that my puppy had been used in this manner to get said puppy moving!! However I accepted decision and left the ring. I will never show under this judge again I have shown under her before with a utility breed and had no complaints. I am new to this particular breed and was please to hear from the other exhibitors who included breed specialist judges that my puppy should have won. Sorry if you are bored but it gets worse!!!

The lady who got BPB then came over to me and said "I am sorry you shold have got that, I know my puppy has faults and this is only her second show. She was an accident (Mother to son mating) and she is just our pet but the KC did register her for showing only but not for breeding!!!" Well I just smiled and said thanks that's how things go- behind the smile I was a demon waiting to be unleashed!!! So much for fit for function and the KC not allowing close matings to be registered!!!

That is terrible! Can i ask what breed and who the judge was?

Me and my partner breed and show S/C Chihuahua's. Our new show bitch gets nervous in the ring also!

Not sure if I am allowed to mention breed or name judges maybe one of the moderators can advise? I know some dogs can get nervous in the ring and I can accept that as I have one of my other dogs who is very nervous in the ring but does not crawl or get dragged around. Hope you get your little one settled the more you take them out the better chance of getting them settled.

I know it's annoying when that kind of scenario happens, but the judge clearly felt the other pup was the better example of its breed and chose that above showing well, most likely because it was a puppy that could improve with training. All dogs will have some faults, not all judges agree on what matters the most. You wouldn't necessarily have felt better if you won if it was just because your pup behaved better rather than due to its looks.  (Speak from experience here as I have a fair few times beaten dogs that were better than mine, due to mine behaving better in the ring. Likewise I have been beaten by worse dogs when mine have NOT been confident enough. Neither is a good feeling.) I think temperament matters a LOT, but puppies need more leeway than adults -and sadly in many toybreeds a lot of exhibitors don't do a thing with them, you can even hear people at shows say "it's her first show and first time on a lead". !! They won't go very far with a very nervous adult.

She was an accident (Mother to son mating) and she is just our pet but the KC did register her for showing only but not for breeding!!!" Well I just smiled and said thanks that's how things go- behind the smile I was a demon waiting to be unleashed!!! So much for fit for function and the KC not allowing close matings to be registered!!!

It has always been stated you can apply to the KC for a too close mating to be registered, and the fact they only accepted it for showing and not breeding at least shows for most it would be pointless in trying to do so deliberately as you could not go further.

I would complain to the KC about the judging.  I had a similar thing happen in a challenge for BRCC under a famous all rounder, the other bitch challening sat down in the ring and refused to budge point blank, the bitch never moved one inch.  That exhibitor had travelled 11 hours to show under this judge when they normally would not do more than a 3 hour journey, and then bragged they had been at a dinner party the week before at a mutual best friends home.  I did have several other people watching, some themselves CC judges who backed me up.  If you don't speak up nothing will ever change.

As for brother / sister mating being registered AFTER the ruling on close matings was enforced again that needs to be addressed to the KC.  Maybe a letter to the dog press on that topic.  As this is the KC stance on close matings I cannot see "pet" being a scientific reason to allow registration "Offspring of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstance, for scientifically proven welfare reasons".  Obviously you would NOT mention names of either breeder / exhibitor / name of dog.  Just a general letter voicing dissapointment at the KC backtracking on their own rules, again.

Message it me then.

I would complain to the KC about the judging.

Should have been done on the day with the fee paid.

> Should have been done on the day with the fee paid

You can still successfully lodge a complaint after the day.

I know it's annoying when that kind of scenario happens, but the judge clearly felt the other pup was the better example of its breed and chose that above showing well

This is not sour grapes I have been showing long enough in other breeds to accept judges decisions and I do not mind in the least if she thought the other pup the better on the day although there were glaring faults which people ringside noticed and yes puppies can get away with a lot, but using my puppy as a way of getting the other to move is what really annoyed me!

As I say it's not sour grapes just venting my anger and did think about complaining on the day but as they say judges decision is final and I accept this just not the way it was done.

Not replying to the OP just those who think it a reason for complaint.

It is not really possible to make a complaint about a judges choice, their handling of the ring or the exhibits or if they swear or chat to someone in a class, yes, make a complaint but because she preferred the other pup despite the fact it would not move in the challenge is not really a matter you can complain about. The judge is the one doing the placing and that can not be questioned, you may not agree, in fact, everyone may disagree but it is still not a reason to complain.

The only sanction you have is not to enter under her again.

> Not replying to the OP just those who think it a reason for complaint.
>
>

There are instances where there are grounds for complaint IF the judge does not abide by the KC rules for assesing exhibits.  If the exhibits are not fairly judged equally for one.  So if one dog refuses point blank to move and the rest of the class, be it one more or 5 more do move out, then how can movement be compared.  Judges choice is one thing and as the OP says they have been in the game long enough to acept that, we can all walk away and not support that judge again. 

Under the rules in code of best practice for judges any deviation from those are cause to complaint.

>So if one dog refuses point blank to move and the rest of the class, be it one more or 5 more do move out, then how can movement be compared.

As (I'm assuming) they were both 'seen dogs' then the judge had already seen how the other puppy could move when he judged it earlier.

In fairness the puppy did move in the original class although not very well compared to others in her class.

Yes there is times when you feel aggrieved I also did at blackpool in the group when the person behind ran full pelt towards me and terrified my dog (the person was defiantly not light on the feet) but whats done is done and there is no changing it so It's best putting it to the back Of yur mind and chalking it down to experience and vote with your feet next time.

We are not talking classes here but the challenge for BP, it is more than likely that the judge remembered the way the pup went in the class and forgave the fact that if was upset in the challenge.

You can make a complaint about anything but the judges decision - as I said in my first post you can complain about the way the judge runs the ring but not the choice of the dogs placed.

It is the judges choice which is why they are called the judge.

There are breeds where movement is all important and you would never place a dog that did not or would not move and other breeds where the temperament would have been penalised but one has to assume this being a toy breed it was one where the temperament and movement would not over ride what the judge found under her hands.

Add to that the fact that as a judge you are allowed to be wrong as on the day that is your opinion and we all make mistakes and that can never be against the KC directives.

However if the pup was the result of a Mother x Son mating then that you can have an opinion about and indeed make them known to the KC.

It wasn't a female and she didn't judge my breed as well did she?

I overheard the judge make a comment about my dog. THAT dog as she called it has won BIS at a breed club show and when she moves like she did on Saturday usually gets highly placed. 

> You can make a complaint about anything but the judges decision - as I said in my first post you can complain about the way the judge runs the ring

That is exactly what I said - if the judge does NOT abide by the rules laid out by the KC.

They're both just puppies and deserve time and patience from the judge to get the best out of them. As your pup was quite happy in the ring I don't think it's wrong for the judge to ask you to go in front of the other pup.

As for glaring faults being spotted by those ringside how often have we heard people saying that. People will complain about another dog being put up because of this or that, but they rarely see their own dogs faults. There is no such thing as a perfect dog, you're paying for the judges opinion and in their opinion the other pup was better.

I agree with all coments made but as I have already said I accept judges decisions on the day and usually don't bother about saying anything untoward but was just so angry that my pup had to keep going around the ring. No matter what, the judge had obviously decided that the other puppy was her choice and that's fine by me but she surely could have done this quicker instead of making a show with pups going round at last count 5 or 6 times they were in the ring for longer than their actual classes!!! It's all water under the bridge and I will just add this lady to my little black book and vote with my feet next time she judges any of my breeds.

I agree. sounds like she had already picked the BPB so should have gone ahead and given it. Must have felt awkward being kept in the ring and having your pup used to try to get the other one to move better.