> the only reason to breed surely is for the money.

shame they cant see us at 5.30 am and every hour through the day clearing poop and wee. Not to mention every other effort we put into our litters.

and the taking a dog back at 9 years old with a half hour warning, or a 4 year old male with 2 hours warning just before your having a litter.

> The whole point to me was to guide people to good breeders when they are looking for pups. I never had a single enquiry when I had pups from the scheme

I wonder if it's breed dependent.  I joined the scheme a few months ago in anticipation of my litter I'm hoping to have this summer, and within a day of my details being posted I had a phone call (I hadn't even realised I'd been accepted yet).  I average at least one a month, sometimes more as I'm one of two for our breed in our county.  I've now put together a really helpful email with links and places to look (including the CD breeders section, breed clubs and breed specific message forums) so that if I can't help directly they now have a few more resources to explore than they would have before.  So now when someone calls I ask if they have email and after discussing the breed in general and answering any questions they may have, I then send them the email with the further info to help them in their search.

That's the kind of thing I do, but have never to my knowledge had contact based on ABS listing.

Depends on the breed for sure, I get about 2-3 a month quoting the ABS.

> That's the kind of thing I do, but have never to my knowledge had contact based on ABS listing.

They've all told me they found me on the ABS site.  Since I don't have any puppies then it has to be through the general ABS area.  So definitely sounds like it's breed dependent.

I do get some through my website, but I don't have my phone number on there so those are usually email, and most will say 'I saw your website...'

There are people on the scheme my breed that I would not by a goldfish off, never mind a dog. In my case it is certainly breed dependant. BYB and PF are breeding way too many pups from my breed. I have phone calls from people who have blatantly asked why my pups are so expensive when they can buy them for a couple of hundred on those sites. Explaining about the health tests, what excellent examples the parents are, the care and expense bringing up a litter, plus all the aftercare, like taking dogs back, helping with problems etc. Counts for nothing it seems.

I am not a fan of the ABS. I was persuaded to join so I could offer an alternative for the puppy buying public.  If I have no pups (most likely) I want to point callers in the direction of good breeders. I want people to stop buying badly bred pups from BYB but if I am not getting the calls from the ACB, how can I? Like Alison I would have far more respect for the KC if they stopped registering litters from non health tested parents.

But I am not holding my breath, they never will, because in my breed 3/4 of the litters are BYB. Oh, the lost revenue following that road. :(

> mostly inspectors have been ex Defra vets with incredibly limited experience of dogs, of home situations and even of breeding.

If you look at the list of inspectors on the KC website, only one is an ex Defra vet. Most of the the others are breeders themselves.

IF YOU HAVE BEEN CHECKED OUT, YOU SHOULD IF PASSED HAVE A MUCH HIGHER ACALOYD, AND IT SHOULD BE DRUMMED INTO BUYERS THAT THE KC HAVE BEEN. WHEN THEY CAME TO ME IT WAS AWFUL, HE TOOK 40 + PHOTOS OF MY HOME INSIDE CUPBOARDS, TI WAS SO INVASIVE, HORRIABLE, IT WAS AS IF HE WAS CASEING THE HOME TO COME BACK AND STEAL. HE TOOK PICTURES OF MY THINGS, ORNAMENTS, GRANDFATHER CLOCKS ETC IT WAS TRULY AWFUL. I have not rejoined either.

The inspector who came to me, all he wanted to do was tell me how he advertises on epups, and proud to do so. I was appauled. still he only bred a rubbish breed, where they are tow a penny in the south west, and very cheap to. but I had to be polite and listen to him going on and on about his wonderful breed, especially his dogs. He did several thing I would not of ever done either.

IF YOU HAVE BEEN CHECKED OUT, YOU SHOULD IF PASSED HAVE A MUCH HIGHER ACALOYD

What do you mean?

WHEN THEY CAME TO ME IT WAS AWFUL, HE TOOK 40 + PHOTOS OF MY HOME INSIDE CUPBOARDS, TI WAS SO INVASIVE, HORRIABLE, IT WAS AS IF HE WAS CASEING THE HOME TO COME BACK AND STEAL. HE TOOK PICTURES OF MY THINGS, ORNAMENTS, GRANDFATHER CLOCKS ETC IT WAS TRULY AWFUL.

Did you let the KC know about this?

> WHEN THEY CAME TO ME IT WAS AWFUL, HE TOOK 40 + PHOTOS OF MY HOME INSIDE CUPBOARDS, TI WAS SO INVASIVE, HORRIABLE, IT WAS AS IF HE WAS CASEING THE HOME TO COME BACK AND STEAL. HE TOOK PICTURES OF MY THINGS, ORNAMENTS, GRANDFATHER CLOCKS ETC IT WAS TRULY AWFUL.
>
>

Are you sure you didnt let the wrong person in?

NO ONE from the KC would be photographing your valuables and ornaments....... you have been 'cased' by a fraud!

I would change the locks if I were you.

When they came to me they took photos of my new kitchen units, but not the dog room - was a bit odd, but definitely from the KC.

I would challenge anybody who took photos of anything that wasn't relevant to the purpose they are there for.

i let the kc know, i spoke and emailed c kisco who said she would personally deal with it, but she passed it on to bill lambert, who wrote me a letter saying it was totally necessary to do all the inspector did,and the inspector while doing my visit told me bill L did his inspection too. that has to be a joke. when the report came back to me, it started of, as if he was describing a house that had just come on the market for sale.  House name is positioned in a lovely part of----- it is a lovely situation in----the house is built----with this and that, then the area,shrubs grass lane etc all but the value of my home. the only thing he wanted me to do was lover the front gate to the lane,but as I pointed out, the dogs had to go through the garden gate first, and it was perfectly low enough. I have been breeding and showing my dogs for 40 odd years, all in my house. I am shocked and very dissappointed, the police did email the kc, but just to warn them it was she though rather un necessery to be so invasive, and to try and get the pictures deleted. In the wrong hands who know, anyone down the line can see addresses, contents dogs etc, it so awful. sorry about my spelling.

Me too. Can't for the life of me think why the KC would want photos of kitchen units!! Blimey, its a good job they can't see mine. I am in desperate need but all my money goes on the dogs :)

Didn't he take pictures of all the dogs, ask to see the register, see where you keep food, and photogaph everything encluding you house garden car, etc. when did he do the visit please. photograph all the rooms you may whelp in.

Also forgot to mention, you have to buy 50p each the wallet for your information, I had only bought 7 in 5 years, but registered 21 pups in 5 years

I mean their are so many breeders out their who have paid to be an accredited breeder, and never been inspected at all. 2 litters a year is a nice little earner for a pet bred bitch or two. whos to say they are doing it properly, just because they paid their subs to the abs. so those of us who have been vetted, inspected etc, and got out current certificates should be given a    different acolyd to show we have been vetted. and approved

Also forgot to mention, you have to buy 50p each the wallet for your information, I had only bought 7 in 5 years, but registered 21 pups in 5 years

No this has now changed, they are free.

so those of us who have been vetted, inspected etc, and got out current certificates should be given a    different acolyd to show we have been vetted. and approved

Yes I see what you mean now and I see the point.

I know someone who was recently removed from the ABS listing as she refused an inspection. Why did she refuse? 'Cause she's in the middle of packing for a house move. Actually, refused she didn't, she suggested that the inspector was very welcome to visit, but seeing as there was no litter, no planned litter until house move, and the dogs and humans were surrounded by packing boxes would there be a lot of point to them visiting. So, the KC in their wisely wisdom temporarily suspend her until she had moved and was able to have an inspection. So, there is no possibility of building up a waiting list for a future litter via the ABS scheme (fortunately few enquiries via that, but that might not have been the case) and surely responsible breeders are building up a list of people for pups before mating? Sometimes a year or so beforehand.

I think it's pretty poor that this responsible, ethical and established breeder has been suspended (nicely so, but still removed from the ABS listing), yet there are many breeders who are still listed on the ABS listing who have not yet had an inspection. Some of whom wouldn't pass if they did. Doesn't seem quite fair to me. Would be fairer if everyone removed from ABS until an inspection had been made and passed ... then added back to the listing.

I've been toying for the last year whether to join the ABS or not. I feel that I should as the public are entitled to have access to responsible breeders (assuming that everyone on ABS fits that - hardly the case yet :-( ), but it just seems such a farce still. Quite frankly I probably wouldn't pass inspection ... 'my right to privacy' comes to mind when I read that inspectors are taking photographs of kitchen cupboards!!

I think I must be missing the point - but why is there a need to take photographs of kitchen cupboards?

You are supposed to give a wallet with each pup sold, so unless you had kept 14 of the pups bred they would be concerned that you were not passing on the folders with the forms for the new owners to give feedback.

> No this has now changed, they are free.

When did they become free?  I had to buy mine in March/April.  In fact I had paid for them when pups were days old and hadn't received them and was in a panic with pups about to leave.

When did they become free?

Very recently -it was in the dog papers a couple of weeks ago. I finally joined the ABS only last week and have been told you will get the folders sent automatically when you register pups in future.

I think he was meant to be taking pictures of all areas accessed by the dogs, so he took pics in thekitchen, but as we got chatting I think he may have forgotten to keep getting his camera out?

I registered a litter on Monday and paid 50p per wallet??

Maybe I'll get refund!!

I wasn't aware that they even took pictures?
I'm not on the scheme myself and have some reservations about it but I would have thought that the purpose of the inspection was for someone to have a look round and check everything was in order. I can only think they take photographs as back up if there is a complaint which needs to be followed up later, but why on earth are the kitchen units important? This description of the inspection visit is pretty off putting to say the least.

I can't find whatever dog paper had an article abut it, but this is a quote from the letter I received:
Every puppy that goes to a new home must go with a complete Puppy Sales Wallet. These are now FREE and will be issued with every AB puppy when you register your litter." That was dated 17th of June.

> I would have thought that the purpose of the inspection was for someone to have a look round and check everything was in order.

Perhaps check and record and what better way than a photograph.
As the previous complaints about the scheme where generally about how lenient the scheme was it is little wonder that the KC now appear to consider they have to be very stringent :)

My worries would be being judged on how posh my house and garden are (or in my case are not) and not  the care taken in rearing the pups and the care the dogs receive.

Does it matter if you have scruffy old kitchen units rather distressed from the attentions of the generations of canine family members, that what passes for a back garden resembles a quarry?

From this you can see I have not yet had my ABS visit, and it does rather worry me that irrelevant things will be looked at, as I am not a house-proud person.

Have to agree brainless.  I know of some breeders with very snazzy home set ups but I would not want to buy a puppy from them ;-)  At my house, the dogs get all the hard earned funds and I manage on what's left :-)

>mostly inspectors have been ex Defra vets with incredibly limited experience of dogs,

I have worked with DEFRA vets for 20 odd years.  Dozens and dozens of them.  And have never met one that is an inspector for the scheme, even though they often stay in contact after leaving.  And I've been in DEFRA Animal Health Offices all over the UK during disease outbreaks, so do get to meet a high volume of DEFRA vets.

Turnaround of DEFRA vets is very, very low, most only leaving to retire.

Graham Thurlow is the only listed 'breed advisor' for ABS scheme who is an ex DEFRA Vet

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3654

Have got the impression the posher your environment is the better, been a member since 2005 and can't say I'm going to remain one as I keep hearing more and more of these sorts of stories.  Breeders being bullied for not being available on the day that suits the 'advisor' and being suspended if they don't 'permit' the visit to go ahead. Hell anyone wanting to come into my house and take pics that wasn't a family member, puppy buyer or estate agent will feel the sharp edge of my tongue! Ex WRAF, never had such things happen on a damned march out, or council when a registered foster carer/childminder, never mind some jumped up civvy with no authority!

I didn't mind the pics being taken, it seemed to be a useful way of jogging the inspectors memory when writing the report, was just surprised so few pics were taken - and no, not a case of them taking pics of potential problem areas, during the inspection I was at the start of major house re-do, and the kitchen units  were one of the few bits I had got done, so they were brand new.  I did have to re-arrange the day of my visit - he rang to make hte appointment while I was out shopping so did not have my diary with me, when got home realised it was within 3 days of a litter due, so could have been a very bad time to come - I could have been whelping her, at vets with her etc,  he made a new appointment without any problem so maybe a lot depends on the individual person?

They really can't win.  People used to complain the inspections didn't occur, weren't strict enough and didn't happen without warning :)
I suppose problems might occur if damage to fittings are likely to affect hygiene but as to "poshness" I suspect it wouldn't matter if your kitchen was B&Q or Bertch as long as they were fit for purpose.

Point is though the kitchen units have didddly squat to do with the dogs.

If they cannot be effectively cleaned of food debris, saliva etc I think they may consider it so.  Infection control and all that.

I registered a litter on Monday and paid 50p per wallet??

Maybe I'll get refund!!  

I can't imagine that happening but I may well be wrong...

I joined the KCAB in partnership with a friend well before our recent litter - our puppies left for their new homes 3 weeks ago now and still no sign of wallets!!!  Fortunately I had some of my own - apparently they are re-designing them and will be despatched shortly....

My litter left 3 weeks ago. I paid for the wallets when I registered them - they were about 5 weeks old. When the wallets never arrived and I phoned to say puppies were going that weekend - a girl just kept telling me she would do her best. They were due to arrive 1st June. Now she told me they were being redesigned.
Long and short was that they arrived in time for just one puppy which I had to hold onto for another week.
At my own expense I had to buy A4 envelopes and post them to 11 buyers as this was a large litter of 14 ( kept 2 myself ).
That weekend in Dog World I read the news that they would now be free. Huh - do you think I was impressed since my next litter will be hopefully from one of the puppies I have kept!
The wallets were also exactly as before.
I emailed a complaint to the Kennel Club and have not even had the courtesy of a reply. In this case, their best was simply not good enough. They did not even try to get them out by asking who I was and that they could get mine out as soon as they arrived.
Trouble is that in same article as telling us they would be free they said they do a survey of how many questionnaires they get back from new puppy owners so in my case it might have been just the one if I had not sent them out.
I feel they have let me down very badly.
Diane

I do wonder what the return rate of the questionnaires is?  considering that nearly half of my puppy owners don't bother to transfer the pups into their names it is highly likely they won't send in the forms either.

One of my recent puppy owners who shows her previous dog bred by a KCAB admitted she had not sent in the form for her previous dog, she has transfered this pup and the previous one though.

>I do wonder what the return rate of the questionnaires is

  I've transfered the pup into my name, but totally forgotten to fill this out!!! Whoops!! Who does this actually benefit? The KC or breeder? If only the breeder, well she is a good friend and I'll tell her anyway..

Who does this actually benefit? The KC or breeder? If only the breeder, well she is a good friend and I'll tell her anyway..

I'd have thought it would do the breeder a lot of good to have OFFICIAL good remarks made to the KC, as opposed to just in private.

Definitely.
The Kennel Club have stated that they assume a certain ratio of buyers are likely to complete the form although I take your point about transferring ownership.
My litter of 14 ( 12 ) if you just take those that went 3 weeks ago, only 11 have so far bothered.
I will look in a few weeks time.
Because I sent the booklets out, I did include a note that it was over to them if they wanted to complete and send in the questionnaire.
Diane

Wow I'm lucky if 60% of owners transfer the pups into their names.

I think it is more likely that forms will be returned if the buyers are not happy don't you?

At present the KC have no way of knowing if forms are not coming back due to new owner apathy or are not being given out by those who are abusing the scheme.

Would it not make sense if breeders had to notify KC of new owners names and addresses so spot checks could be done?

> Would it not make sense if breeders had to notify KC of new owners names and addresses so spot checks could be done?

It owuld  but I have a feeling that some sort of data protection rule cold prohibit this.

Can't see how really as we already provide dog food manufacturers with names and addresses and the Insurance companies.

well thats a plus, after the event. good I had moaned big time about that
Anita

Who came to you, lets expose these very very camara happy inspectors on this sight, it will help other inspections in the future.
Anita