Hello everyone.........I am a newbie in need of help!

Whilst we realise it could be our own fault, we did everything with good intentions......it's just gone wrong :-(

I have been reading previous posts but every situation is slightly different ........so here it goes.

We have 2 bitches, unspayed, aged 2.5yrs & 6yrs. Both have always got on well......with 1 exception about six months ago after grooming they did fight.

We introduced a male puppy, 8 weeks old, 2 days ago.

The eldest bitch is attacking the younger bitch. First few times she just ran and attacked the younger one but they were able to be seperated. They had a few incidents but most were stopped before they got too far.

We decided yesterday to totally isolate the puppy from any contact with our bitches. Obviously can't remove smells!

This morning when I entered the kitchen they started to fight again.

It was a little different this time and my husband really really struggled to seperate them. There was a fair amount of blood from the younger dogs leg which we wrapped in a towel and it stopped bleeding quickly (she has been running around fine but has now started limping). The eldest dog turned and looked at my hubby (raised her top lips) when trying to seperate them and he thought she could turn on him to get to the other dog. As such trust has possibly been lost.

We don't have the space to seperate all three dogs so we have taken the eldest dog to our local kennels which we use once or twice a year.

Is there any solution to this that will help them live in harmony........or has it gone past that point??

We spoke to a local re-homing centre who are unwilling to take her as she has attacked.

All views welcomed ...............very difficult situation.

As you have found out, rehoming her could be very difficult and, I would imagine, rather painful for you.  I think you should be considering returning the puppy and soon before you become too attached.

I'm not sure that NOT having the puppy would make any difference now, to be honest. But if it was me the first thing I'd do would be to get the pup put of the way (breeder -explain and see if they could keep the pup for say a week just to see) to see whether they still fight or not. Unfortunately chances are they still will as once bitches start, that tends to be it, and then your only options are to either keep them permanently separated or rehome one. Been there, done it, as have many of us. :(

Can I ask after this fight where blood was drawn how were things, did the younger become submissive to the older afterwards, did she lick the elders mouth, lower her head, body etc, roll on her back, if so things may well have played out how dogs sort out their hierarchy issues. Younger dogs often want a role reversal, usually through the odd teeth growl and body language they back off and show respect, when they don't fights happen often there is a winner and then they can live together, but if neither budge fights will forever continue and they can not ever be together.

If the younger showed signs of submission you may have acted too quickly in sending the elder to the kennels, she is not aggressive not in the sense the kennel and yourself are thinking, she is protecting her place as the elder more respected bitch, she may be in a home with 10 other dogs and never have an issue again, hierarchy fighting is not aggression.

Knowing how both acted after the fight will help to decide whether one needs re-homing or not. Can you try to describe what you viewed as best as possible. :-)

People will say having them spayed will make no difference but I can only say when I had trouble with two of mine having the unspayed, and apparent aggressor, spayed the problem was solved.

Thanks for your replies so far, need as many opnions as possible to decide what to do next. Therefore, very greatful of all help and ideas.

I doubt the puppy would be possible to return, as was a homebred dog (by accident!). Tho obviously a rehoming centre would have no problems with him. As mentioned, I am concerned that the puppy gone will not resolve this now.

When some of the fights have happened the younger dog was at the bottom of the garden whilst the eldest was at other end of kitchen. The elder dog ran down and attacked her.

Blood was drawn from the younger dogs legs and her eye is bloodshot, she may possibly have other injurys but is very hairy so hard to tell. The younger dog showed no signs of submitting, she was defending herself,  as such it was hard to seperate them.

After every fight they have licked each other on the faces. She didn't roll over to submit.

They became wary of each other and almost like shadowing each other, with their heads next to each other about to start a fight. Yet at times just sat peacefully away from each other.

Our worry is not just for the safety of the dogs but of people in the house and our kids/kids friends. Yesterday my son and his friend walked down the garden whilst the younger bitch was out there and stroked her head as he went passed. Next thing we knew the elder bitch ran over and attacked the younger.

I don't feel there is any hard and fast rule to spaying Stooge, who knows how hormones and characters can entwine, often when you have a strong character it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference spaying them if wishing to be top bitch, but other times it can make a difference and bitches will only get uppity when coming up to or in season, so spaying will sort it. What is good for one bitch may not be to another.

Glad in your case it worked, you must have been so relieved. It certainly can work.

I'm just wondering as we have a 6 year old un-spayed and a 2.5yr old un-spayed and now a male pup brought in, whether our OP is heading towards potentially breeding? If not then it is probably best to get both bitches neutered anyway, cutting down the risk of pyo & mammary cancers and ceasing the cause of potential future fighting due to an un-neutered male being in the house. It may as in your case sort out differences if they are hormonal only.

Normally if the fighting is not sorted, I would say keep the elder bitch as it is IMO unfair to home a dog you've had for 6 years and harder to re-home an older dog and re-home the younger bitch, but I'm wondering if future breeding is in mind maybe this is why the elder may be re-homed as she would obviously be too old by the time the dog is matured.

I guess only our OP knows her future plans. :-)

Worriedowner, yes unfortunately it is very easy to get hurt in trying to break up a dog fight, what breeds do we have here?

Also are their seasons in unison and have you noticed the elder being more uppity when a season is due?

Obviously people are divided on whether spaying will help or not.

Our concern is that the fights are progressively getting worse, hence why we have seperated them. Kennels was our only option really.

I know people that have upto 7 dogs (of mixed sexes) living in harmony together..............was not prepared for this reaction between the dogs.

Just wondering if it would have happened with or without the puppy and if removing the puppy will help at all?

The eldest who will be 6 in september is a collie  X gsd

The younger is a Standard poodle X Retriver

I don't think any of us can say for sure, :-( we are all going on only what we hear from you, which you may or may not judge correctly, tbh a behaviourist who is there to watch would be far better IMO, hormones need to be assessed too, whether spaying would make a difference, it's an accumulation of everything before a decision is made.

Different breeds mature at different rates the 2.5yr old may be an adolescent or a mature adult without the breed it is hard to say, they may be equally matched in character, build and intelligence, which will cause major problems if they both act equal. If the younger is an adolescent things can often change once she reaches adulthood, there are so many factors and you do need help.

The pup may or may not be a catalyst, but obviously should not be caught up in fighting, dogs are generally ruled by a bitch so his place will be sorted when mature, far better than two bitches together.

We can help you to collate all the information you need which will help you a lot. :-) You really should then divulge this to a recommended behaviourist to judge, but otherwise we are only giving our own experiences and as much help as we can. :-)

Certainly wouldn't hurt to have both spayed, making them more homeable anyway if it comes to that, and non breeding bitches are usually better off spayed once mature.

Personally don't think the male pup there makes any difference, the issue seems to be entirely between the two, it isn't a case of one bitch playing with pup and other attacking.

Some bitches just cannot get along, as some males can't and very rarely a conflict arises with opposite sexes.

Unless they can be kept separate, which is very hard in a family home then re-homing the younger one would see the only real option.

As you say the fights are escalating and will only continue to get worse.  The younger bitch has reached social maturity and the older one isn't prepared to tolerate her.

The eldest who will be 6 in september is a collie  X gsd

The younger is a Standard poodle X Retriver


Thank you. :-)

Well, I don't know what others will think and with crosses characters are never set and can change traits, but the Collie (is it BC) x GSD is much more likely to keep the top bitch position does she show a lot of herding characteristics and leg nipping? I'm wondering when she raced to the bottom of the garden if she was rounding up your other girl and it turned into a fight when your other bitch wanted none of it, now that she is older, could this also be a possibility? Maybe with a pup there too she wanted to keep everyone together?

First off let me say I'm sorry to hear your girls are fighting.

The fact that blood has been drawn and it was difficult to part them suggests that the fighting is serious.
You also state that they had fought a few times but without causing injury.
I have two bitches that fight and I do not allow them be be loose with each other at all. Bitches can and do make enemies in the blink of an eye  (my pair came to blows over a bubble) and once serious fights break out between them it is usually a for life thing,especially when neither bitch will back down.
Having a puppy in the house is in my opinion not a factor,your girls had fought long before the pup arrived on the scene,the fights have simply become more intense
I really think you need to either re home one or keep them separate,either by shutting one away in another room or crating.I prefer crating as I feel a crate is more secure and I don't have to worry about doors being opened and dogs escaping.

I love both bitches equally but we can't realistically can't keep them seperated. I would be too scared that if they accidently met and fought the kids could get caught in the middle.

We called a rescue centre and told them the truth and they had no interest in re-homing the older bitch but were happy to take the younger one. I feel all rescue centres are likely to react the same way..............but who knows...........I am willinging to try them all!

My husband feels the older bitch has crossed the line she was not just aggressive to the younger bitch but showed agression towards him. As such he does not want her back in the family home. When he seperated them he says the older bitch just kept wanting to go back for more even tho the younger bitch didn't. In his mind, knowing both dogs, he feels the older bitch would have continued even if the other had totally submitted.

It's not easy keeping them separate but it is possible,I do it with two bitches AND two litter brothers! (and have done for a long time)

The rescues all look to who would be the easiest to re home,the older dogs tend to be overlooked and so spend a long time in their care before finding a home.

The older dog was in full fight mode so not acting "normally". I have been bitten whilst trying to part dogs,but they have always spat me out as soon as they realised it was me in their mouths!

Yes,the older bitch may well have wanted to continue the fight,it's what they do and it's why some bitches will fight to the death.

I do feel for anyone in your position,it's hard making the decision on who stays and who goes if keeping both is not an option.

Thanks Lorraine

We generally feel the older dog has to go......but that's very hard to decide as love her dearly (been crying nearly all day as it is!!)............need to sleep on it I think.

Haven't a clue if we will be able to re-home her & she cant stay at kennels for long, we were lucky they had a space!

I'd always put the dog you've had the longest first, both out of fairness and out of practicality; a younger dog being easier to rehome and will settle easier normally. An older crossbreed may end up either being in kennels for a very long time or put to sleep -not trying to sound nasty but you need to bear that in mind. Also the cross of your younger dog will find it far easier to find a home.

> I'd always put the dog you've had the longest first, both out of fairness and out of practicality

I would too but then I don't have children and I can understand it would very hard to do that when you have lost confidence, rightly or wrongly, in their safety with a particular dog.
I do not envy the OP their choice :(

Was there a reason for any of the fights? Maybe pups food being left down or pups toys lying about etc?

Stooge I think you have hit the nail on the head. The children do come before the dogs, regardless how much the dogs are loved!

However, worried about the younger bitch too as she might be wary now of any other dog. Not just in the house but generally as she is wounded and feeling sorry for herself at the momment. So if we decide to keep her will have alot of work ahead building her confidence.

The kennels we use one of the employees lost half a finger seperating family pets at home and not someones dogs at the kennels. Obviously every sitaution is different I know. But I realise humans can get hurt, even if not on purpose, during dogs fighting.

Regards to puppy stuff/food toys etc the puppy wasn't in the room/garden nor any of his stuff.

They hadn't even seen the puppy before the fight today it was only me in the kitchen with the 2 bitches cooking breakfast

Nothing happened to spark it off they had not long been back form a 45min walk around the field behind our house with hubby.

> Nothing happened to spark it off they had not long been back form a 45min walk around the field behind our house with hubby.

Sometimes it can be as subtle as a "look" that sparks the fight. With my two it was chasing a bubble!

Maybe tempers were always going to flare with them,bitches can live together for yrs with no problems,some bitches can live their whole lives together very happily,you are just unlucky that your two have fought and meant it(bitches tend to really mean it!)

To be honest I dont think there is anything you could have done or not done that would have prevented them fighting.

you say you were cooking breakfast... I have 4 dogs and never cook or dish out food for ourselves or dogs  when they are in the same room I either crate them put them  in different rooms or outside. food can be a catalyst for a fight ...the only time one of my girls gives a little grunt is when food is around.
Never had a fight but I will never take the chance.

> you say you were cooking breakfast... I have 4 dogs and never cook or dish out food for ourselves or dogs  when they are in the same room I either crate them put them  in different rooms or outside. food can be a catalyst for a fight

I have to say that seems very strange to me. It would not occur to me that I would need to shut my dogs away before preparing food. It would make life far to complicated. I do watch they don't steal each others food but certainly would expect to be able to make food without having to shut them away

I don't think food has ever been a catalyst to their fights. They have stollen sausages from the frying pan before and plenty of beans and it's never caused anything between them, more a guilty look when I found my dinner had vanished! But i'm sure dogs would have a food issue.

The look I believe is as I could always tell when a fight was about to happen just not always able to stop it.

One of mine decided to have a battle this evening - the biggest and the smallest who also happen to be the oldest and the youngest. The oldest one is a bernese and spayed, the youngest, a PBGV and in season now - it is obviously a hormonal argument and the wee one got flung out in the garden for her trouble - she is a feisty little madam at the best of times but doesn't usually pick on big dog! We have no idea what she was fussing about but think it might have been the kitchen bin bag which was about to be taken to the bin. It happens to all of us at one time or other and is frightening when it does. I have also had two dogs fighting resulting in my daughter being injured and the younger one being rehomed (back to breeder actually). I could never have considered rehoming the older one as he had been here longest, it wasn't his fault I decided to get another dog and they didn't get on.
Anyway I would consider getting both bitches spayed, it may or may not make a difference but at least you won't have raging hormones clouding the issue. If you really cannot face keeping the older dog then you have to consider having her PTS, she will not be easy to rehome at her age, especially if she continues to be aggressive. Harsh I know, but really what other option do you have if you cannot keep her?

Your choices really boil down to four options

1. get them both spayed and see if the situation improves - maybe with some input from a behaviourist.
2. Rehome the younger bitch as this is likely to be easier than rehoming the older one
3. Try to rehome the older bitch and if this proves impossible have her PTS
4. keep them apart somehow.

What you decide really depends on what you can live with but I would certainly try the first route before any of the others.

spaying both made no difference to my pair, we still get the odd spat.
i cant believe you want to rehome a dog you have had for 6 years 2 days after bringing in a new pup! the pup needs rehoming asap and things may settle down to where they were before.

> I have 4 dogs and never cook or dish out food for ourselves or dogs  when they are in the same room

On the other hand I have 6 dogs that spend most of their unsupervised time in the kitchen, so will be there when we cook and dish food too, and not fighting.  Dogs/bitches that reach the stage they can't stand each other will use any excuse to fight.

Mine are all fed together treats handed out, sometimes to just one or two (if it is from food prep) and the dogs name is used so it is obvious who is getting a treat.

I have never allowed food to be an issue, and when it comes to pot licking etc, if they can't share they don't get, someone else gets called over to lick the yogurt pot etc.

In other words I control who gets food, but on the other hand no-one is allowed to steal someone elses food, and when there are chews or bones they get a couple more than there are dogs, and anyone hoarding gets the spares removed, they cease to be high value as there are always some hanging around.

I hope I never get two of mine that can't be kept together, and only have the odd spat, quickly resolved and soon forgotten.

My dogs have never had a spat of any kind... I do have one who is a counter surfer and big enough to reach the back of the worktops .
I never said I cant  feed the dogs food together I said I never , I never said for one minute that they cannot be kept together , food is not an issue they also have treats together but I never cook in the kitchen with the dogs around apart from anything else I cant be doing with them under my feet , as I said earlier one grunts when  her  food is being sorted because mealtimes are her favorite time of the day.
Cant see why you are  picking me up about the way I run my home. It was a suggestion to the poster .

Many apologioes I wasn't picking, it was just illustrating that no matter how we run our dogs if they fall out seriously it can happen in any kind of situation.

Also 'Spat' to me is from the usual odd growl or 'oy I have had enough of you in my face' normal canine interaction, to a bit of blustering.

:)

Thank you for all your varied views.

I totally understand why many say the eldest dog should stay. We had our previous dog until until the ripe old aga of 14............brill for irish wolfound cross.

Our dilema is we are a family home and safety is paramount.

The bitches I feel may have fell out long before the puppies arrival & we would have reached this stage at some point.

Even if we got rid of the 2 younger dogs we would have to muzzle or rehome the elder dog due to fear for the kids safety.

Not sure the 2 younger dogs will be happy together after this weekends fights either. The younger bitch is very wary of him & would prefer he stayed well away............although all she does is move away if he gets too near..............other than going to toilet we are keeping them in seperate rooms and never unsupervised.

It's not something we take lightly. Obviously most of us know our dogs very well & sometimes tough choices have to be made, this is very tough on us.

Whatever we decide either way its going to be hard to live with............we certainly are not rejecting our elder dog in favour or the younger ones, she is a dear family pet who has unfortunately over stepped the line.  Not sure there is a way to resolve this happily.

Can you not send the middle dog away for awhile, to friends or family maybe? Just to see how the older one is with the pup. If your elder dog has never shown aggression to the humans before, then  surely it was just the heat of the moment and she forgot herself. Of course, if you are now wary of her, she will pick up on these feelings and will most likely not act quite the same with you as usual - maybe being a little worried or aloof, most definitely confused if you are not treating her the same as you usually would.

It could be by just removing the middle dog, calm is restored and you can get on with being a happy family.

Even if we got rid of the 2 younger dogs we would have to muzzle or rehome the elder dog due to fear for the kids safety.


I don't understand why you have come to this conclusion, dog hierarchy problems and even dog on dog aggression does not transfer to humans, because a dog attacks a dog it does not mean at all it would ever hurt a human or even think of attacking you or your children, they are completely different issues, dogs attack for all different reasons what is causing her to go for the younger bitch has nothing to do with how she feels about humans, unless she has had issues with humans previous.

When people try to break up dog fights they can get hurt if in the middle of it ,it's all adrenalin pumping and only one thing on their mind, a family dog does not want to hurt us, she should not be untrustworthy in normal day to day life. It's a misconception to think that way.

It seems to me the elder dog is not coming home, your husband won't have her home will he? If she is still in kennels I think the writing is on the wall anyway and your probably after some back up here that you are doing the right thing. Well you can't fix any problem unless you understand it and know what is causing it, with the dog in the kennel your not going to have anything assessed or fixed, if it can be. I dare say as the dog is now labelled as 'aggressive' she will end up being pts. She's not coming back, no point in beating about the bush, your not going to trust her, spay her or bring in a behaviourist, she wouldn't still be in kennels if you were. :-(  You may as well be honest with yourself, no matter what we say, she's not coming home.

Sorry you feel like that Carrington. I have come to the conclusion as I can see no other workable solution.

Started the thread to learn from other peoples experiences in a similar situation.

I have listened to everyones thoughts on the matter.

She has only been in kennels for 1 day......she loves it there normally, tho I appreciate this is different. It was an emergency matter as we had an injured bitch with blood pouring from her leg! So was unrealistic to put the younger bitch in kennels. We spoke to vet and kennels n believed it was the best quick temp. solution.

The fights were too often and increasing rapidly in frequency and severity that putting the 2 bitches back together to try and see if this or that may or may not help is seriously not a realistic option by any stretch of the imagination as I feel this could be a fight to the death or at the least a very serious injury.......we were there and saw the fight after all.

We don't want to see the dogs harm each other and I doubt next time we will be able to seperate them it got that bad.

When they first fighted around 6 months ago we thought it was a 1 off and hadn't read so many distressing stories of bitches fighting as we have now. We know many people with multi dogs/bitches that live happily together.

Spaying/behaviourist may or may not help...........can't risk them being together whilst we try this and that they would not be happy crated or muzzled. They spend alot of time with kitchen door open and freedom to come n go into the garden. So don't see this as working.

Not wishing to beat around the bush but obviously our heads are spinning with the situation and no solution seems fair.

If we wanted to have the elder bitch PTS would have done it yesterday..............has to be a better way........I really can't believe that a 5/6 year old dog is considered past it to rehome just because she can't live with the bitch she is currently with.

Just for future reference:

If you have two dogs having niggles and spats, best to sort that out first by bringing in a behaviourist and spending time and energy on that, if it can't be fixed and if you have no room to separate the two as you say, then usually you would re-home the youngest as they have more chance of getting a new home.

I don't understand why with these issues you went out and bought another dog, especially as you don't have the room, and you also have children, but you somehow are able to keep the pup separate from your youngest dog at present, why was this not possible with the two bitches, if so with the pup? Every doorway can accommodate a dog gate if need be.

And your now also worried the middle dog and pup won't get along which is why they are separated, even though the pup has only been there a few days. The whole thing sounds an absolute mess, but the dog in the worst position is the one you have had for 6 years now in a kennel not knowing what is going on.

Personally with children, I think you have enough going on, I would take the pup back, I'm convinced due to the dog being in kennels and already sourcing rescues you will not be entertaining the 6 year old again and I would stick to just having the middle dog, I think it is enough for you. :-)

> Even if we got rid of the 2 younger dogs we would have to muzzle or rehome the elder dog due to fear for the kids safety.
>

Why????? She bit your husband when he was BREAKING UP A DOG FIGHT. That is completely different to  her displaying people aggression.
When a dog is fighting it is in an extremely aroused state, focused on the fight, anything (people, other dog, inanimate object) that also gets involved in that fight - for ANY reason - stands a good chance of being bitten too. It does NOT mean she is any more of a danger to your kids than either of your other dogs. And yes, I have been bitten by my own dog when breaking up a fight (not current dog), had my finger bitten right the way through.

I'm very sorry you find yourself in this horrible situaiton but I also find my self feeling sorry for the elder dog that is being completely misunderstood by the very people that choose to take responsibility for her life in the first place.
As the elder dog is being labled as a danger to your children, how much more of the dogs behaviour is being misunderstood? The elder dog may only be finishing what the younger one is starting.....A good beahviouist that can asses the dogs would really be the best option to help you make an informed choice, going on what is actually happening.

As the elder dog has a vet check? Is her hearing & sight OK? Is there any underlying medical issues that could be making her feel vulnerable?????

> I really can't believe that a 5/6 year old dog is considered past it to rehome just because she can't live with the bitch she is currently with

You don't want to keep her because she has bitten, and you have known her for 6 years. How many poeple that are actively looking for a rescue dog will want a dog that has been kicked out of it's home for fighting dogs and biting the owner?
The younger dog does not have that 'baggage'.

You don't want to keep her because she has bitten, and you have known her for 6 years. How many poeple that are actively looking for a rescue dog will want a dog that has been kicked out of it's home for fighting dogs and biting the owner?

Rescues won't touch a dog that has bitten a human, it would be put to sleep straight away. Circumstances doesn't tend to matter so in this case only the owner can prevent that from happening.

As others have said, getting bitten during a fight doesn't mean that dog would ever bite under normal circumstances. I'm sure plenty of us here who have had bitches fall out permanently have children as well. The important part is to get the dogs away from each other so there are no fights, if there are no fights there are no bites.

I DO know though that once you have made a difficult decision it's not the easiest thing on earth to change it because you've got to do what feels right in your heart and mind. So in this case I'd say it's then the owner's responsibility to take the older dog to the vet to be put to sleep, not pass the problem on.

Do you not have any family or friends that would be willing to take on either of the bitches for you?

I've been bitten myself when trying to split up dog fights, the dog in question was trying to get to the other one and I was just in the way. In normal circumstances, and in not seeing the dog he had a major issue with there was no problem at all. A lot of the time being bitten while trying to split up a fight is often a matter of course, no malice intended towards the human though.

Would it be worth you OH going to the kennels and spending some time with your older girl? It maybe that he'll feel differently about her now things aren't so tense and she is in a calmer environment.

Your children do have to come first in all of this I agree, and while you can put all the dog gates up etc to keep them split, one wrong move by you or the kids and you're likely to have another fight on your hands again if the bitches get back together - If you have a kennel and run which can be locked so the kids can't open it maybe an option? That way you can switch the 2 bitches over into there?
As soon as you mention to any general rescue about a dog biting a human, even if not intended, as others have said during a splitting of a dog fight you'll be hard pushed to get them to take her on..

ETA: Following Carrington's post below, I clearly didn't read the OP's fully, if only a curl of the lip and no biting then you could look to really work things out with this girl.. Vet check is the 1st port of call and then get a behaviourist in and get them to assess the dogs(with you and your OH and not the kids about to start with) and see what their opinion is from reading the body language between your 2 girls.

The 6yr old bitch hasn't bitten the husband, she curled her lip whilst looking at him when he was splitting the dogs up, the husband is now frightened the bitch would have gone for him, it's a complete lack of understanding canine behaviour all round.

Which is why if a behaviourist is not going to be brought in and the two owners are assessing the situation the 6yr old stands no chance. It's also why I feel the pup needs to go too as they could obviously have little spats whilst the pup matures which may not be handled correctly.

Lots of misunderstandings here now................she has not bitten a human and I have never said she has!

We have kept the puppy seperate to gradually introduce...........and was always doing that anyway.

Our dogs dont go upstairs so easy to keep puppy upstairs at night we have a fabric crate for that purpose.

We are not fearful or any of the dogs just can not risk another fight and the outcome............sorry if that seems harsh to some of you..........but the last fight was very scary

We have room for the dogs but they spend most time in our large kitchen/conservatory and garden........they have places to get their own space or to be together but it is very open plan.......they rarely go anywhere else in the house..............only way to seperate would be to have one in the lounge which is likely to cause jealousy as that's regarded as a treat in our house.............and the the only way to the garden is through the kitchen.

We did not seek a behaviourist before getting a puppy as didn't really realise the bitches had an issue.......they had a fight after being groomed which we put down to scent..............i never realised at that stage bitches can hold life time grudges

I really don't need to be judged for making hard decisions just thought there must be others out there in same situation or been through it to gain some help and support to each other

Feel bad enough as it is to be honest...........tried to be as open and honest about everything as possible it the hope it will highlight what can happen to others and to gain experience from those that already been there

> My husband feels the older bitch has crossed the line she was not just aggressive to the younger bitch but showed agression towards him.

Because of the situation.  Fighting is not only highly emotional, it raises the adrenalin and cortisol to serious levels and in that situation, it is not at all uncommon for other dogs or people to be caught up in it.

I doubt this bitch would show aggression to your OH in any other circumstance - think of it like a pub brawl.  If you're in the middle of a fight, and someone taps you on the shoulder, you don't turn round and say 'how can I help you?' Chances are, you turn round and wallop whoever tapped you!  It's pure reaction - no active thought in it, all instinct and adrenalin.

I've been on that end of that reaction many times with my oldest dobe, in her early days here - and it was always out of pure reaction to an emotionally charged situation.  She never actively sought to aggress at me, if that makes sense.

I agree with what others have said re. rehoming - the younger girl is going to be MUCH easier to rehome.  There are homes out there who will take an older, potentially aggressive dog (although again, I don't believe this one would be aggressive to humans normally, from what you've written) - I am one of them - but they are few and far between and the dog could be in kennels for months or longer while that home is found.

Edit: posted as you did.  I promise I am not judging you - I have considered rehoming my youngest quite a few times after fighting with the next youngest (both girls, and blood drawn but it's not gotten as bad as you've described and they are fine now), it is not a pleasant thing to have to even consider.  My heart goes out to you.

Fights can be very scary, actually I find them very much so, especially if they are your dogs and also if injury takes place too in one of your dogs. Making a decision of having to rehome is a very hard one and its a very stressful and emotional time for anyone concerned.

Whatever your decision good luck with it and I wish you well..x

Look at rescue sites (those who don't as a matter of course pts after 1 week) and see how many older dogs from 6 years + are still in rescue for months and months. You are not being realistic if you think the bitch who has left you is soon going to find some nice cosy home
Also, think seriouslyabout returning pup. A young puppy should not have to be shut away from human and canine family members. I suspect the children will be upset at the thought of the pup leaving, but at this stage, in fairness to the pup,you should really let him go. I feel if you keep him amidst all this upset you are storing up behaviour problems in this dog for the future.
If the person who bred the pup is a decent person, who cares about her dogs and not just making some money,she/he would be prepared to take the puppy back.
If you know definitely you will never have your older bitch back in the home - have you thought about vigil gsd rescue, German shepherd rescue Biggsd, to name a few. Looking at their sites will also give you an idea of the number of older dogs in rescue,some,with serious behavioural issues which make them extra difficult to re-home.
I would have found it very difficult (am no longer of child bearing age) to cope with children,husband,fighting dogs and a new puppy to boot!

I feel very sorry for you - I have been in a similar situation myself and rehomed my younger dog - but the older one we kept (who we suspected had bitten our daughter) never ever caused problems again. It is very frightening when dogs fight - I personally hate it - even the noise is enough for me!
The thing is that only you and your family can make the decision. I certainly wouldn't be telling rescue that she had bitten a person if she hadn't done so or if it was in the heat of a fight with another dog. Sometimes the strangest things can affect dogs - ours were fighting on a very thundery day - yours had a new puppy in the house that they hadn't met but could smell and may have been hormonal too. Speak to a behaviourist - see if they can do anything to help and in the meantime look for a new home for one of them.

I don't relish the thought of having to decide to re-home any dog. I am aware of the rehoming situations and most centres are full to bursting.

We have owned dogs for 30 years and never been in this situation.

The puppy may have to go.....yes i don't have an issue with that............sorting out the bitches is my main issue.

For the record the puppy is not shut away from human and canine contact..........more highly supervised and seperate at night. After all the middle dog is injured at the momment, doubt she want a puppy chasing her!

> We have room for the dogs but they spend most time in our large kitchen/conservatory and garden

Is it not possible to put two metal crates in the conservatory at all? That way neither dog would be able to start a fight with the other and you would not have to worry about dogs escaping etc.

I promise you it really is easy to lock one dog in her crate before letting the other out.

My two girls can walk past each others crate,stop and sniff but cannot get at each other. Actually they are rather clever (or devious!) and never utter a cross word at each other,they would only fight IF they could get at each other and that's not going to happen lol

I tend to agree with others in that your eldest bitch does not pose a threat to you,your husband or your children just because she has fought with the other bitch.

I trust all my dogs with ME,its each other they hate not me!

I do think you need to step back a bit and take stock of the situation. Perhaps put the crates up and try keeping them separated for a while to see how you get on.

If it doesn't work out you still have the option to re home one of them.

I cannot understand why you fear for the kids safety with your older dog when aggression has only been directed at the other bitch  (canine to canine aggression is not the same as canine to people aggression at all) the fact she showed her teeth at your hubby while in mid fight is totally understandable, and she still had enough restraint to hold back from biting him, which is not an uncommon consequence when parting fighting dogs.