Just been speaking to my sister, apparently idiotbrother still wants Tia back and has just refused a potential place to rent as it's "not big enough for the dog".

I am now in a mini-panic :-(

Everyone except my brother - my sister included - knows that he is the worst place for Tia. Sister even said 'brother still thinks he is getting her back...' it's kind of well-known to everyone but him that Tia is staying here.

At least, that's the theory.

What worries me is if, by some miracle, he manages to get somewhere he can rent that takes animals - chances are he will then want to come get her.

That's the mini panic. That man is absolutely the worst possible place on the planet for this dog. He left her to suffer immense pain because he couldn't be bothered to take her to the vet: severe osteoarthritis, full-to-bursting anal glands (which caused permanent damage through self-mutilation), chronic chin infection which spread to her elbow callouses (from not having a bed) and the ear infection which I think had been brewing and was tipped over by the stress of moving 200 miles. She has a massive lump that he hadn't noticed until the day I picked her up, but which had been there for at least 8 months. She has another massive lump underneath which he still doesn't know about but which has also been there for months. She was nearly deaf, and her sight is going. He has no idea about either.

It's cost me several hundred pounds to get her straight, she has the ongoing arthritis meds to be paid for, and I am sure there will be additional chiropractic treatments in the future. He won't see the signs that it's time for one of those. He won't remember to give her the meds on time, not that he'd get them in the first place. Dad could send him the money to get them but he'd either forget or spend it on cigarettes. She would end up right back where she started, stressed out, not walked, and in unbearable pain :-(

I just cannot, in good conscience, hand her back to that feckless moron but I don't know what to do to fight him :-( :-( When I said I'd take her I had to say yes, it was temporary, to get Tia away from him. That I think will be a problem but it was that, Tia living in a car (which she physically wouldn't have been able to do) or being PTS.

What can I do? :-(

I've asked this elsewhere too and the responses so far have been to give him an itemised bill for what I've paid so far - I can and will but what concerns me is that he might borrow the money from someone (and I have no doubt he'd lie to get it if he thought he'd be turned down if he gave the reason), pay it back and then want to come get her :-(

Presumably the vet has the records of the state she was in when you got her? Can you perhaps tell him how much it cost, how much suffering he had caused Tia, and then say that you are not giving her back because of the state he had let her get into, and you only said it was temporary because you didn't realise how bad she was. And then if he argues, threaten to report him - it might cause some family tension I know, but at least Tia will be safe.

Not bothered about family tension in the slightest, I've already told half my family I have no interest in speaking to him again and have lost what little respect I had left for him.  He's a waste of oxygen.

Well, if you are not worried about falling out with your brother, I would just tell him he doesn't look after the dog and that if he will not leave Tia with you he will have to take you to court to get Tia back (in effect you will be dognapping her, it's not legal) but your ace card to use is that you have the vets reports and you can bluff the RSPCA (if needed) to back you up with all the medical issues and lack of care to show that he is not fit to have this dog.

Chances are he won't wish to fight it, (at least that is the plan) if he can't be bothered to get medicine somehow can't see him being bothered to call police, pay for solicitors and go to court, (but it is a chance, you know your brother better than I as to whether he would fight or not) the only problem you have is if he just comes and takes the dog, you should not allow him into your home as legally he can and you don't have a leg to stand on.

The only way you can stop that from happening is to talk to the RSPCA and ask them to prosecute him, that way he will not be able to take her, but sometimes the RSPCA give people second chances so again nothing set in stone. :-(

I would phone him and tell him asap, to firstly gage his reaction and see what you are up against, and secondly it is not fair that he is searching for a home for him and a dog, it's best to be straight with your intentions and disgust at how he has treated Tia, brilliant idea to also land the bills on him if he will not leave her with you now too.

Don't know if this will make any sense but a couple of years ago a colleague of my husband had his dog stolen , he tracked it down after about a year to an address about a mile away. He tried to get the dog back even contacted the police who told him there was no proof this man stole the dog and seeing that it had been in his care for ???? days it was now his dog!
So I don't know for sure , but is there not something somewhere that say's after he's been in your care for so long that he is now legally yours ?

How often do you see your brother? Does he ever visit your house? If the answers are not often and No, never then tell him she has been put to sleep/died/hit by a car or something similar which means he will never ask for her back!

I have wondered about that Cani1.  She's been here for 3 months now with no input from my brother.  While she's here she gets everything she needs and I have my dad's backup financially if it's needed, as he wants to make sure she's looked after as well.

Proof-wise there's very little - her chip is in his name but not his address (it's two addresses old already).  Vet records have been in my/my dad's name since 2001 I think, prior to that they were in his ex's name.

And thinking about it it was never written down that this was temporary, that would be his word against mine.

I think I may ring the doglaw peeps tomorrow.

chaumsong - last time I saw him was the day I picked her up.  He lives over 200 miles away, I never go down there - not been in a few years except for this.

I have thought about doing that, I'd have to wait a while (he'd see straight through it if I said it now I'm sure) but that is something I've considered.

I'm just being nosy and trying to understand, :-)

So your brother must have had this dog a very long time, if he firstly had her with his ex (who had vet book in her name) then did he move in with your dad from 2001 (who then had dog in his name) and then he was living in a car with the dog which is why you took her in temporarily?(I might have that bit wrong) Not sure how old Tia is but she must be at least over 12 years I guess, with age comes lumps and bumps, deafness and eyesight probs.

Could it be with a 200 mile move, stress and pressure he just hasn't checked up on his dog as he should? I just feel a bit sad now that he has had her all this time, maybe fallen on hard times and just feels she is safe with you for now.

I don't know your brother, he may well be a waste of oxygen as you say, but my heartstrings are tugging a little here that he has had this dog for years and obviously she is still in his heart as he is looking for a place for her too.

Maybe he just needs a little help and a good telling off and will be there for Tia again now when ready????

Don't get me wrong, part of me does feel bad - he has had her a long time, since this time in 2000.  He does love her very much, that's something I've never doubted.

But in all that time, from the very second he was completely responsible for her (when he and that ex parted ways) he started neglecting her - not walking her, not bothering to pay the insurance etc.  He moved in back home for 3 years with her and I ended up walking her then because she was literally going insane - I started when it was at the point of him taking her out for 10 minutes, on lead, once a month.  From what his last ex has told me, it has been exactly the same for the last 4 years with her - only this time, everyone has been telling him for a long time to take Tia to the vet and he's just said 'she'll be fine', while she's in the background crying out in pain and chewing her tail to pieces.

His current situation is of his own making - his ex had enough of his laziness and selfishness, but didn't chuck him out because he had nowhere to go - he made himself homeless with no consideration for his dog or cats (cats in rescue now).  He has stayed in a few friend's homes but every one has chucked him out because once he's in, he just takes advantage and makes no effort to sort somewhere for himself.

You have the reason for me taking her right - the only good thing he's ever done was acknowledge that she can't be living in a car.  He hasn't moved 200 miles btw (may have read you wrong but think that's the impression you've got?) - I moved 200 miles 4 years ago so Tia's had to come that far.  That in itself was horrendously stressful for her and not something I'd want her to repeat, everything else aside.

> Maybe he just needs a little help and a good telling off and will be there for Tia again now when ready????

I wish it were that easy :-( But in those 3 years we lived together at dad's place, he was told.  He was asked nicely to walk her, he was told to walk her, in the end I was screaming at him to walk her because she was driving me insane.  He would forget to feed her - again, he was asked and told but didn't change, so I ended up feeding her (and slimming her hefty weight down as I am still doing this time around).

Fact is, my brother will not learn.  He was once beaten up very badly by a neighbour for not clearing up Tia's mess from the shared garden - didn't teach him a thing :-(

I would dearly love to think that he might change, that he might be the sort of person who would give her the care and attention she needs - but he won't.  He can't even look after himself or even his own young son properly, he is just too selfish :-(  From what my sister has been telling me he's just been playing computer games for 4 months.  Just like he has been for the last 36 years :-(

Thank you for explaining, picture painted very clearly now: :-)

If this is the person he is then Tia would be in the worst place with him you are right, sounds like he has become used to everyone else wiping his behind and has never truly stood on his own two feet, no doubt he will find another partner soon enough to look after him this type usually do and any future animals, but you are right, Tia can not wait for that to happen, she needs someone to care for her properly.

Best of luck in whatever way you decide to do this.

> sounds like he has become used to everyone else wiping his behind

That's it exactly, and so much more succinctly put than me lol!  My sister has been helping him financially - and same story again, soon as he knewshe would help he just stopped trying, until her OH told him to F off.  Then he called dad, who foolishly gave him some money... so he's sponging off dad.

Thing is he owes my sister over £1k just from the last few months - had forgotten about it but I may figure that into things (i.e. pay his more important debts off first).

It sounds like he can't care for himself, let alone Tia.
I agree with the others- tell him how much she has cost in vets bills, lay it on thick re the amount of money that ongoing medication will cost and if all else fails I would say that I would report him re failing to get the dog veterinary attention.

It's a strange type of love if he is not providing for her basic needs; if you love something then you can let it go if it means that they will be better off without you, I wonder if he has thought of that.

Well done to you for giving her love and attention, I hope it continues this way for a very long time :) 

Surely, with his lack of care all this time, he could easily have been prosecuted under the Animal Welfare Act..

And you can't let him have her back, just so that you can prove that she is neglected (so making it easier to take the dog off him.)  Because you could only get the authorities involved once he is again depriving her of veterinary care.  This is the biggie - it's illegal not to provide vet care for your pet.

Given the way he has neglected her welfare needs, I would just tell him that you daren't risk giving her back, as you know that you would immediately get him prosecuted.  Tell him that if that happens, she could be destroyed.  I know that he would have to fight me tooth and nail to give her back.

It's a strange type of love if he is not providing for her basic needs

Doesn't this happen a lot though, I know I've seen it a lot. It's one of the main reasons there is so much re-homing going on.

People get all sorts of animals because they like them, they can even love them, but they don't want to look after them.

If my husband and boys had their way we would practically have a farm here, but I always look at an animal as yes, lovely...... but.... hold on that is X amount of years of cleaning up poo, inoculations, vet visits, training, care, socialising, making sure there is always food and water and basically working your life around their needs.

Too many people do not think like this, Nikita's brother just being one.

if you love something then you can let it go if it means that they will be better off without you, I wonder if he has thought of that.

I truly hope that what you say above will be something that will strike home and let this situation come to a nice happy end.

It sounds like your brother has become completely desensitized to life, probably made worse by living in his virtual world of computer games.

Just tell him straight, Tia doesn't want to go back to him, she much prefers the actions of love, not the words.  She likes being cared for, being fed, having vet care and pain relief. Tia doesn't want to spend her final days being neglected, she thinks she deserves better.

Maybe let your Dad know you are going to tell him so he doesn't give him any money for petrol to come see you.
Mel

Spoken to the peeps at Doglaw. They reckon that the police wouldn't bother to get involved, and if bro wants to pursue getting her back after I've refused, he'd have to go the small claims route.

Me agreeing to take her on a temporary basis would be the likely sticking point, but as the vet records have been in my/my dad's name for years, and with all the new vet records, payments etc that I've made, and with the chip not being registered to an up to date address, thigs would look pretty good for me.

Doglaw peeps also said that if it did go to court, I could argue not only all the costs etc but that I did not feel bro was capable of taking care of her as she needs (and use the lack of treatment previously to support this), and that at 12yrs old, she's also settled nicely here and the longer she is here, the better for her not to be moved again.

Spoke to the RSPCA as well who were hopeless and just kept telling me to speak to citizens advice. They got rather stuck on the ownership side and seemed to keep ignoring my asking about the neglect side.  Although the peeps at Doglaw did say that I could use the Animal Welfare Act to point out that he has failed his legal duty of care towards Tia.

Think the plan for the moment is to take a day or two to calm down as my anxiety is going haywire and I feel sick :-( then email him/FB message him with a full and detailed explanation that I will not be handing her back and exactly why (including words to the effect that my feelings aside, Tia is happy, cared for and as healthy as she can be here and doesn't miss him). If he wants to take it further then it's up to him, I'll be locking the dogs indoors when I go out just in case but I doubt he'd actually do anything along those lines.

I actually already have everything written up already - have had for 2 months!  I was just hoping it wouldn't reach this point.

I would do what Dog Law tell you and refuse Tia going back to him. Tell him that you have a Veterinary report (get one done as soon as possible) and tell him that should he win in a court of law you will not only be claiming all Vet fees but charging him for kennelling , food etc for the last three months. Also that you will be letting the RSPCA see the Vet report with a view to getting him prosecuted under the Welfare Act. May just be enough to have him back off.

Just thought I'd drag this one back up to let everyone know that we are having 'that' conversation right now :-(

So far he's tried to give me every excuse under the sun for not taking her to the vet, everything from his ex stopping him to Tia not being ill until the last few weeks when he was locked out, to her actually getting better!

What a complete idiot, I am genuinely struggling with the concept that I am related to this piece of trash at the moment.

Will update you all later...

Great that she is improving, good luck and best wishes with 'that' converstation.

Ok, as it stands:

After 3 hours of talking last night, idiotbro still cannot grasp that Tia has been unwell for a very long time.  He variously tried to tell me the signs he'd seen, that they'd gone away (that she'd gotten better from arthritis - er, no), that he'd never seen them (even though he told me what they were), that he'd treated them himself and it had worked (but they'd come back so no, dear, they hadn't worked), that everything wrong with her had come up in the last 3 weeks before I picked her up when he was locked out and couldn't see her.  That suddenly changed to 4 weeks (not that that makes any difference).

He tried to tell me that she was fine after a walk and some food; right after he'd told me he didn't walk her or feed her.

He even told me at one point that she'd been scratching her ear and yelping for a while - that was the ear infection she had a while back.  So another long term, chronic problem which cause temporary complete deafness - and he didn't tell me about it :-(

Anyhoo outcome is he still believes he's done nothing wrong and is blaming everyone and everything else, typical of him.

In the end I sent him a message (his laptop died) telling him that to get Tia back, he is going to have to pay me every penny of what he owes me so far - that includes vet fees (which will be added to today, because the chin infection is flaring again because - again - he never got it treated when it was shallow and easily sorted), food, chiropractic fees, supplements and kennelling fees (based on the kennels I used to use who are very good but quite cheap - still nearly £1k).  It all ads up (so far) to over £1200.

Once he's done that, he'll have to take me to a small claims court to fight to get her back - at which point, I have informed him, I will have a very strong case because the vet records have never been in his name (and have been dad's name and my address the last 4 years); the chip is out of date (sorting that out today); and he has failed, legally, to provide the medical care she needs so if he pursues it, he will also be reported the the RSPCA.  Doglaw (who have given me the legal advice on this one) also said that I can use the vet records etc to contend that he is not capable or willing to provide her with the proper care she needs.  I also now have him on record (I save all my convos on messenger) lying about taking her to the vet and repeatedly contradicting himself about her symptoms and why he hasn't had her treated.

I've also told him that if he tries to come and get her, he won't be able to get in, I won't let him in (neither will housemate) and if he tries anything such as physically forcing his way in, threatening etc he will be reported to the police immediately.

Ball's in his court but I can't see this going anywhere. :-)

Oh, the icing on the cake last night was him trying to infer that I know nothing about dog insurance.  Apparently, Tia is completely uninsurable because she's over 7 years old, and I'd never be able to claim for the first year of the insurance on a dog over 7 even if I did find someone to insure them.  Oh, and that I don't know about the claiming process.

Angry as I was, I took great pleasure in informing him that I'd had 3 separate, full lifetime cover quotes for her, and that in my own dogs, I have a total of 8 ongoing conditions that need claiming for a minimum of every 2 weeks, and that 6 of those conditions are in a dog who is 10 next month.  I am well versed in dog insurance; he has had 1 dog, who he didn't insure.  Tit.

Niki well done for taking that stand for Tia, who cannot speak for herself. What you've said to your brother has taken some guts but I think when you are driven to take care of an animal, and when you understand what it has taken/took to ensure her welfare, there is no way you would consider him being able to take her. So glad too that you are backed up by Trevor Cooper, great stuff.

Personally I do not think your brother has  leg to stand on, and if he truly cared for  her, he'd want her somewhere where she got care, attention and also was part of a family with you and your other dogs.

Lindsay
x

Thanks Lindsay, I just wish I could do these things without turning into a complete wreck!  Huge panic attack last night when he found me on FB, still a wreck this morning.

But if it helps Tia, I'll just have to put up with it!

> if he truly cared for  her, he'd want her somewhere where she got care, attention and also was part of a family with you and your other dogs.

This is it exactly.  I said that to him - "she could have that here with me" was his reply.  It's like he's just blanked out the last 10 years of ignoring her :-(

Well done Niki for getting this far, I am sure he wont have a hope in hell of reclaiming her.

I see your sticking point,  "temporary"  but to be honest, cant see any court in the land seeing 10 yrs as temporary, and to be honest, unless you singed an agreement all those yrs ago, then I would conveniently forget the word was ever use.

He was homeless, he gave the dog to you , you have kept her and cared for her all these years , and have the vets fees to prove it.

If it was a temporary measure surely said owner would be reimbursing any costs  you incurred whilst looking after her??

I've only had her since the end of feb - he's had her 10 years or so, but I looked after her for about 4 years up until I moved here 4 years ago, which is why the vet records are in my/dad's name (I took over her care when bro moved back into parental home with her and ignored her, forgot to feed her etc).

Sorry , misunderstood!

No worries!

Another update:

Brother has told my sister he will not be chasing to get Tia back, and is leaving her with me!  WOOOOOOOOOOOO! :-D

All the stress, the angst and frustration of the last 10 years has been worth it :-D

As for her - well, she's almost back to her young days.  She spent the day at my friend's house today - me, housemate and 3 of the dogs went to the Dogs Unleashed show so in case brother tried anything daft, Tia went there so that the dogs left at home could have the dogflap open as I knew we'd be a good 5/6 hours at least.  She was, as she used to be, on the go all day and is acting like a puppy - friend's friend came round and actually thought she was a pup despite her grey hairs!  She's started playing with the other dogs again and is generally so much happier.

Yahoo!

Can't tell you how happy I am to hear that news. Now Tia can enjoy the rest of her life knowing that she will be well looked after and cared for.

That's wonderful news for you and Tia. May you have many happy times together and well done you for having her welfare at heart whatever it took :)

So pleased for you, and looking forward to an updated photo of the gang. I can't remember whether the last one you posted included Tia.

T
x

I don't think it did Tadsy, I've not got a proper group shot with her in as yet.

I do, however, have a fake group shot :-P

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x55/Nikirushka/group1.png

Third from the right :-)

Fantastic - you could use that as your letterhead!

T