Hi, hope someone can advise on this.. I'm getting increasingly fed up!

My boys (Labs) are ages 27 months and 12 months.  The 12 month old (Eddie) has been showing nearly every weekend since 6 months old, and attended ringcraft most weeks since 8 weeks old.  The 27 month old (Melvin) showed and attended ringcraft religiously for the first 12 months, then had a break of 12 months before starting again. 

Both will stand and move nicely if I get it right, but they're getting increasingly worse at letting the judge/ringcraft teacher go over them.  I have no idea how to stop this... I've been going to two different ringcraft classes and no one's really taught me anything, it all seems to be about practicing... and no one can help with this problem now.  Both classes are very busy so we're lucky if we get 3 goes per class.... and many just say 'it's a Lab thing'.  And I agree, to a certain extent it is, but because I'm not a 'face' I can't get away with it where others can (I know that's not always the case, but there's no doubt it happens often!).

Eddie's problem is jumping up to give the judge a kiss as soon as they lean over him... I can bait him to stop it, but I keep reading show reports where judges are complaining about this.  Melvin's problem is wanting to roll over on his back for a tummy rub, no amount of baiting stops this.  I don't think it's affecting Melvin's placings so much, he's a very striking dog and so does ok regardless when he's the judge's 'type' (it doesn't look good though!), but I do feel that Eddie could probably do better.

I don't really know any local exhibitors who could help by regularly going over them, and don't have anyone who knows what they're doing or are willing to learn enough to help out.  Does anyone have any suggestions!?  Do you think it's possible a phase and they'll grow out of it?  I feel like I could do with some private ringcraft tuition, but don't know if such a thing even exists.

Thanks,
Clare

Clare, do wonder if some clicker training would be the way to go teach your dogs to stand and the problem is over. Look in your local area for clicker training classes or buy a book and have a go yourself all you need to teach is stand and watch me and you will be home and dry.

I trained my daft SWD girl to stand using a clicker.  It literally took her 5 minutes and before then she was as daft as your two.  She now stands beautifully but sadly is still daft on the move 85% of the time. She's done well the other 15% though winning a BIS at a breed club and winning quite a few classes.  I need to start clicker training her moving I think as at 3 years of age she should be calming down  :)

Thanks both, it never really occurred to me to try a clicker!  I have experimented with clicker training for other dogs with obedience to teach parts of send-away, heel work, and positions.  Not really sure how to apply it to this though, so any pointers you have would be good.. I'll obviously start by getting them used to the clicker.  It will probably work very well especially for Eddie who's a bit of a brain box :-D

I've heard good things about two books that cover clicker training for show dogs:
Positive Training for Show Dogs: Building a Relationship for Success by Vicki Ronchette and Click to Win!: Clicker Training for the Show Ring by Karen Pryor.

The Karen Pryor book was covered, in part, online here.

Might be worth a read, good luck :)

bit strange I know but have you tried stacking and tickling near his bits usually boys stand perfectly still ...a lot of handlers do this and it works a treat...LOL

We get all the dogs to stand and have to be gone over before they are fed everyday, its never for too long but along with training and regular outings it worked. Draco is fine to be gone over and moves alright but is a right wiggle bum when standing so have started a few obedience classes to help, Im a firm believer the more you put into the dog the more you will get out, have you tried swapping at ring craft and letting someone else take them to see if they do it for them as well? . At least they are not aggressive or terrified, that's a plus, I don't think your in too much trouble.

> stacking and tickling near his bits

Eeeeek

> stacking and tickling near his bits
> Eeeeek

If you don't like the thought of tickling near his "bits" just stroke the inside of his back leg.

Personally I do obedience and ringcraft with my Goldens and I think that teaching them the wait in Obedience has a good influence on them. I bait my dogs and the word 'wait' in the showring means that they concentrate on the food but know not to move or jump. I agree about practise but maybe you could another discipline with them alongside of ringcraft. I also agree that it is a 'Lab' thing. Many do not seem to 'get' what standing still while judge goes over means.

Thank you everyone.  I've just been reading the Karen Pryor link and I do think that would help, I'll dig out the clicker this afternoon.  I've also received information by PM of a ringcraft trainer who perhaps does more 'training' :-D  So we'll be paying them a visit. 

Alison, thank you for your suggestion... both boys do a lot of obedience training, and now gundog training.  Both have a good 'wait'.  I've always been reluctant to use that in case they automatically sit or down with it.  It's worth a go though, a sit would be better than some of the stunts Melvin has pulled :-D 

>Both have a good 'wait'.  I've always been reluctant to use that in case they automatically sit or down with it

All you need to do then is to change the word slightly, so that they know the difference between 'show' behaviour and 'working' behaviour. It's the same thing as their leads. My dogs knew the difference between the show lead, the walking round town lead, and the we are going hunting lead. ;-)

Been reading this with interest as Will is exactly the same, goes all giddy as soon as the judge approaches, then wriggles like a fish caught in a net. The video I took at Crufts, with my grandson handling him, shows him jumping up at the judge - and the sharp intake of breath from everyone around me was quite audible! Can you pm me the details of the ringcraft trainer please Clare, they might be near enough for me to go to.

i agree it worked for my boy who is a complete fidget

Hi Newfienook, sorry if I'm being dense here, but which suggestion do you mean?  I'm tempted to try a combination of everything :-D!!!!

sorry cvl , tickling his bits or there abouts, i have 14 stone of "i don't want to stand still" but when someone suggested it i thought ok give it a go , even if i just stroke his inside leg he will stand still clicker training probably aswell but as my lad isnt food orientated it doesnt work

Thanks!  Excuse my ignorance, but when showing Newfies, do you stand behind them (opposite side to the judge) and stack them and whathaveyou?  Sorry, I'm very much a newbie and only just getting to grips with Labs.  I'm just wondering how I could utilise the 'bits tickling' trick with a Labrador who are shown free standing in front of the owner, even when the judge is going over them.  I'm probably just missing something though, but I only have other Lab exhibitors to go by (and can only watch them when my boys aren't playign up!!).  I'm definitely willing to try anything!

Thanks again everyone... had a go at the clicker training this afternoon, something seemed to 'click' with Melvin.  So we'll see :-)

yes they are a stacked breed unless you are lucky enough to have one that will free stand, and i have one which was a joy , although not the norm some exhibitors stack then kneel rather than stand and thats how we tickle the bits , i know some people frown on it but if your boy free stands with you kneeling and tickling maybe its better than having a jack in the box LOL X

Thanks.... we went to a new ringcraft last night, and learned more than I've learned in two years of attending other classes!  AND realised how incompetent and ineffective I am!!!  He suggested standing him while someone else gently tickles his tummy, inner thighs and bits, while practising at home.  That way it's relaxing him into standing and getting him used to someone touching his back end while he's staying in a standing position.   I feel much better about it, knowing that we have a long way to go, but have some advice on how to get there.  The problem I believe we've had is that the ringcraft teachers have told me how it should be done for my breed, but haven't been able to give advice on how to achieve that if it's not coming naturally.  I've now been told a couple of tricks which although aren't typical for the breed, should at least help me for the time being :-) 

The idea is that you show your dog in whatever way makes him look the best. And even if its not quite the done thing in the breed if it helps you and your dog then go for it. The clicker training is great isn't it :) best of luck.