has anyone managed to get a nervous dog to show in the breed ring the reason i ask,
my friend has just taken on a nervous young male 13 months old not been socialised properly
not been taken out much etc, so at the moment he is going out and about with her to
agility shows and she would like to show him but he is so anxious when meeting new people
she gives people treats and he takes treats off them and he has started agility classes and is
doing quite well in the classes, playing with the other dogs and getting treats off the people in the class
but when out walking if someone is walking past he can growl for no reason so for the last couple of days she has been when seeing people comming towards her loose lead and walking tall and confident and telling him to go on and when he does not react he gets a treat looks like it is working
the thing she asked me yesterday when we had all the dogs out together was should i take him to ringcraft and if i do how the hell do i get him to let people touch him and go over him when he is that worried about strangers and would ringcraft be understanding with him as he has had nothing done with him for 13 months and now he is learning loads and soaking it all up, he wants to work and loves to work so doing very well at everything she throws at him.

so really the question is would ringcraft be able to help him, should she go along and ask them if they would understand how nervous etc he is, i think myself the nervousness is because he was kept shut away all his young life as everything she has taught him in the few weeks she has had him is fantastic.

This is a problem I am all too familiar with. DON'T do ringcraft as that will make it worse. Forcing the dog to be gone over doesn't help. It is a very, very long and very slow process. Haven't got time to write much now but as an example I have spent the past two years working with one of mine (who was well socialised etc but is still a nervous dog, and got scared at a show) and we're only now starting to get somewhere. If it was my dog I'd continue to get general confidence up with agility etc and not even think of show training until the dog is much more confident in general  and at least 2 years old so past all fear stages.

Personally I wouldn't even be thinking about putting a nervous dog in the ring. I would just focus on gradual socialisation, maybe a few quiet obedience classes etc to build up the dog/owner bond and the dogs confidence. Lots of new places/noises etc...just like you would with a puppy. When the growling/nervousness has pretty much dissapeared, then focus on trying ringcraft and getting him to show. Give him time, dont rush/force anything or you'll end up either back at square one or with somebody getting hurt.
:)

I would also not go to ringcraft, most are fine for your everyday happy dog but untold damage could be done to a nervy dog by forcing the issue. No disrespect to those who run good ringcraft with sympathetic trainers but lots do not. They are run by well meaning (and often very "show" expierianced) and nice poeple..but not they are not beahaviourlsts. A dog like this needs to come out in his own time. If he gets more confident over time and settles then is the time to introduce some handling by strangers. Not before. If his temperament is right and he settles and overcomes his fears then he may be good to show, no idea of the breed or it's charateristics but the nervousness may be inherited and he should not be shown anyway as it could be a serious fault. If however it is just a lack of socialization then time and atience will win out and maybe in 12 months he will have learned to trust people and you will be able to re-think showing him. With time and persiverance a nervous or agressive dog could be taught to stand for examination but it would never make the temperament right. I see far too many jumpy dogs in the ring and it is not right. temperament is and integral part of a dog more important than construction so it needs to be right to start with. If you find that after some time to adjust his temperament if sound then give it a go.
Aileen

well said Merlot

I took on a nervous bitch when she was 14 months old, couldn't get her out from under the table at her previous owners & there was no way she was going in the showring.

I took her to my obedience classes, I will cut an incredibly long story short by saying, I have trained her for the ring, she loves showing, could I take her through a busy high street, then no, but I can show her, she's winning at Champ shows.  It took me a year of hard work to do it though, with some wonderful people helping me along the way.

As for ringcraft, I've had two boys wrecked by ringcraft.  One took me 6 months to sort out, the other is still work in progress as he's learned the best way to avoid someone touching his head is to dance about.  I tend to use my obedience classes to teach them to stand & have people go over them, on my terms.  I have taught my ex-nervy girl to "stand & wait", I don't take any nonsense from her so she knows that there is no threat.  The worst thing people can do is talk to the dog. 

If you do try hands on at some stage, don't make eye contact, don't speak & go in at the shoulder & place a hand on the shoulder before touching anywhere else.

I'm no expert, I have learned a lot of things by having this girl & my nervy boy before that.

to be honest dog showing is not just about conformation, most breed standards penalise any form of nervousness  with all due respect a dog that judges have to treat differently than others in the ring when approaching them imo is bad news .Im sorry i applaude your work and faith in your girl but i dont think she should be in the show ring if she still is nervous

She's not still nervous!  That's the point.  She loves showing!  When I was talking about the high street that is due to the fact that it would be a new experience for her, we don't live near busy towns! A lot of her behaviour was learned so it would only be a matter of introducing it to her, like the OP she probably wasn't socialised at the correct time in her life.

As for your comments on breed standard our breed standard always used to say "wary of strangers".  It has now been changed to "sparing of affection of strangers" but the point is still there.  I do however appreciate that this is not the case in other breeds.

ETA - that aggression in the ring is not acceptable & I wouldn't want anyone rushing a dog into the ring that wasn't ready.  All I was saying is that it MAY be possible to get a nervous dog into the ring, but it's not going to happen within the space of weeks or even months.

Iapologise , I misunderstood your post ...congratulations on your hard work .Obviously your dog has been rehabilitated so to speak but i have come across dogs in the ring years ago time aftertime reacting nervously to being gone over by the judge and thought your dog was the same .Sorry once again and good luck !!!!!

Our bitch was almost ruined in the ring when she was 8 months old a judge was very heavy handed and when she shied away (because the judge rushed up to her) she grabbed her and hit her for shying. I was pretty unhappy and it took between 12- 18 months of hard work to get her back in the ring as she backed away from the judge after that so we took the dog into town and sat outside to have coffee and took her to car- boots with us.

18 months on she is a confident young bitch who takes everything in her stride never backs away and even walked through the throngs at crufts with the huge crowds without battering an eyelid and had people scratch her tummy, so as others have said it can be done it just needs time and buckets full o effort but will be worth it in the end.

However I have a friend who has a beautiful dog, good enough to be made up but he hates the ring and really 'show well, so he was retired and is loved at home as she realized it made the dog stressed and she decided it wasn't fair to push him if he didn't like it that much.

Don't worry Flomo, I understood where your post was coming from.

To the OP, the question that has to be asked re. showing - is the dog in question an outstanding specimen?  The reason I ask is that it took me so long to get my girl where she is & I mean doing something new every single day with her for over a year, but I knew that she was a stunning example of the breed (I can say this as I did not breed her lol!)  I would have been quite happy doing agility or obedience with her (she just lurves doing them) but I went that extra mile (or 3!) to get her in the breed ring.  I would still persevere with all the socialisation, but possibly give the ringcraft a miss & leave showing until the dog is happier in its skin.  Good luck & keep us posted.

gosh Triona ,thats awful ......do you know what if someone judge or not hit my dog im afraid to say i would have  hit her  back....then prob be arrested ,banned from showing...etc ....but on a serious note it just shows you that one stupid action can have such a long lasting effect. again another testament to patience and hard work . Showing should be fun for both dog and handler ..

well a good update, went to watch him at his new agility class and at the end of the hour was sitting on everyones knees and playing with other dogs, she is giving ringcraft a miss and letting him just chill with her doing normal stuff, we took him to agility show today and he was brilliant, he went up to people and sniffed them,he puppy bowed at other dogs, and all day not one grumble we where both so pleased with him. she is going to keep doing what she has been and i don't think it will be long before his insecurities will be a thing of the past, met one of his brothers that was rehomed at 8 weeks old and he is a confident young male and is up for anything not bothered about anything at all so we know that it has been lack of socilisation with him and she is doing everything she can to help him and everyone has been so kind to him and understands that he has problems and let him come to them and treat him so now he thinks that everyone is good fun as they feed you.

thats great news

Really great news.  Hope he goes from strength to strength.  Keep telling his owner what a great job she's doing.  It's always nice to hear, I know it gave me huge motivation to carry on the good work when people commented on how well she was doing.

Glad he's enjoying agility, such fun for the dogs :-)