I bought a puppy from a friend of mine but as the puppy grows it is becoming obvious that the parents are not who my friend said they were. I have asked my friend about it but she insists the parents are correct. I have asked her if I can have DNA samples so I can DNA the pup ( at my own expense) but she is flatly refusing to let me have samples.

Is there anything else I can do?

Has the pup been registered with the Kennel Club, if so you may be able to enlist there help.

Is this a pure bred puppy or a x-breed?

If the puppy is KC registered as a certain breed, then of course you need to let the KC know and the breed club,

Selling anything dishonestly you need to contact trading standards to take things further.

But first ask yourself, why do you think it is not the breed, there are poor examples of all breeds?
Has anyone else in the breed confirmed it is not the breed, or even a vet (though often not great on breeds themselves)
What does the breeder think of the pup? What is their explanation?
Is there a possibility that another dog has got to the dam as well, will the breeder consider this a possibility?
What is the rest of the litter like?

I see no harm if you are paying for everything why the breeder will not allow a DNA sample, but perhaps she is mortified and digging her heals in.

yes it is KC reg. Will call the KC and ask their advice. Thanks

> Is there a possibility that another dog has got to the dam as well,

It is a very vague possibility but if the parentage is as I think then the only options are the correct mother with the father being a 4 month old pup, or the option I am reasonably sure has happened is that the father is correct but the dam is a different dog meaning the breeder has knowingly fraudulently registered the litter  .

a couple of friends in the breed have confirmed the pup is absolutely nothing like they would have expected from the breeding. It is not just a case of being a poor example but there are some characteristics which can really only have come from a particular line. the pup is also not showing any traits I would expect from the mothers lines and is almost identical to her half siblings from a previous litter which was the same father different mother

If she is identical to pups the sire has previously sired then there is nothing to say the breeding is not correct as registered but the pup has taken after the sire's side strongly???

Did you not see the pup with its dam.  Are there several breeds involved?

Was there 2 litters there and you got one from the wrong one?

Not heard of the wrong dam before, usually it is the sire/s who are in question.

Did all the pups look alike or could the young male have sired just your pup?

Only DNA will confirm if there has been a mix up.

> If she is identical to pups the sire has previously sired then there is nothing to say the breeding is not correct as registered but the pup has taken after the sire's side strongly

But the previous litter have taken strongly after their dam not their father and this pup is very similar to this bitch in very many ways when she should have no relationship to her at all. The pup bears no resemblance at all to the bitch who should be her mother and very little resemblance to her father.

If the breeder has nothing to hide then why not let me do a DNA test?

Reading between the lines I think I understand what you are suggesting has happened and the refusal of the breeder to allow a DNA test does seem to point towards you being right.

As the KC wishes to have breeding matters above board and to stop the over breeding of bitches they may help but they are a law unto them selves however I think they would support your wish to have DNA tests done and if you are proven right then they should take action.

But the previous litter have taken strongly after their dam not their father and this pup is very similar to this bitch in very many ways when she should have no relationship to her at all. The pup bears no resemblance at all to the bitch who should be her mother and very little resemblance to her father.


To me that doesn't sound like very much -can you give more details? Just one example: I have 2 pups where one takes after her father a lot, the other takes after her grandmother and nothing at all from the father -neither is anything like their mother at all and you'd never think they were from the same litter if you didn't know.

> Did you not see the pup with its dam.

I saw the pups in the living room. the "mother" was brought in for me to see. It did not occur to me at the time, but only afterwards when the mother was brought in she had no reaction to the pups and they had no reaction to her. I know my own bitches if they had been separated from their litter even for a few minutes would have gone to their babies and checked them over, and the babies would have rushed over for a feed. There was nothing like this between the bitch and the pups.

I did not see the other bitch on my visit as I was told that she was very protective of these pups even though they were not hers so the breeder did not let her into the living room and would not let me see her anywhere else. Also with hindsight I don't remember the "mother" showing any signs of an enlarged undercarriage and she was in good coat, not moulting like I would expect a bitch to be.

> To me that doesn't sound like very much -can you give more details?

different strains of this breed vary widely with some being much larger than others. The supposed mother and a lot of her relatives are on the small side as is the father, whereas the bitch I think is the mother is very much larger. Really over size for the breed and bigger than the father. The previous litter all take after her for size. this pup is already very big for her age, much bigger than I would expect from her lines. I do remember being surprised how big the pups were when I first went to see them, and the colouring is also very different than I would expect. It is lots of little things that are just niggling at me making me feel that this pup is not right. I have had this breed for nearly 20 years so have seen a few variations in my time.

TBH you had suspicions from the start and before you came home with the puppy therefore you should have walked away.

How much of a friend is she if your not known to her dogs? Yes the breeder shouldn't have done this if she has indeed done what she is being accused of BUT you have your own mind.

Hope this is a lesson learned

If all the dogs are KC reg (presumably) even if different strains they will still be the same breed so still be registered even if mixed, in your opinion why would the breeder falsify the dam? Is the larger bitch over 8yrs? (as she has already had a litter can't be under 12 months) Or had she already had 2 litters that year?

These are the only two reasons why this litter would not be registered by the KC,

Otherwise I don't see the point in the breeder lying, if this is the breed that I think it is, even if you have two smaller type dogs, depending on what is in the line you can still have size and colour variations.

From your description of the look of the 'dam' no viewable teats and no greetings from pups or dam, it does sound iffy, but what could the reason be to cite the smaller dam?

> If all the dogs are KC reg (presumably) even if different strains they will still be the same breed so still be registered even if mixed, in your opinion why would the breeder falsify the dam?

Because she had a litter on her last season. the pups from that are only 9 months old now.

> TBH you had suspicions from the start and before you came home with the puppy therefore you should have walked away.

Yes, I wish I had but the breeder was putting a lot of pressure on me to have a pup as she knew I wanted the lines the pup was supposed to be and she was having a lot of problems selling the pup.

>
> How much of a friend is she if your not known to her dogs?

It is a long distance friendship. She lives the other end of the country so we keep in touch by email or phone which is why I don't see her dogs very often. And why I only went to see the litter when the pups were old enough to go.

>Because she had a litter on her last season. the pups from that are only 9 months old now.

Is she a licenced breeder (ie breeds more than 4 litters per year)? If not then the two litters within a year regulation doesn't apply.

> Is she a licenced breeder (ie breeds more than 4 litters per year)? If not then the two litters within a year regulation doesn't apply.

Surely it does with KC registration? I thought they wouldn't register back to back litters?

Yes, JG is correct, they will do back to back with hobby breeders, only not with licensed breeders. :-)

> Yes, JG is correct, they will do back to back with hobby breeders, only not with licensed breeders.

Ahh... ok..... What are the breed club's views on it though?

and of course not all litters in under 12 months are back to back matings (no season between), some bitches have shorter than 6 month season intervals.

Some back to back matings may be justifiable because the bitch has very long inter season intervals, 10 months is not unusual, and waiting another 10 months may mean a bitch is too old, a  stud unavailable etc.

Then there is the case of singleton or very small litter for the breed.

It is a long distance friendship. She lives the other end of the country so we keep in touch by email or phone which is why I don't see her dogs very often. And why I only went to see the litter when the pups were old enough to go.

I think it's also quite understandable why you left with a pup too under these conditions, even though little niggles were starting, she was a friend, she told you the dam and sire and you'd travelled across country, why wouldn't you trust her?

I hope you are wrong as it's awful that a 'friend' would do that to you. :-(

> I think it's also quite understandable why you left with a pup too under these conditions, even though little niggles were starting, she was a friend, she told you the dam and sire and you'd travelled across country, why wouldn't you trust her?

Yes you have hit the nail on the head. It was only afterwards when I got home and had more time to think the doubts started creeping in.
Another odd thing is that when I look at all the photos she sent me even of the pups in the whelping box at only a few days old mum does not appear in any of the pictures. Just puppies. No proud mum with her puppies.

I think I can safely say our friendship is at an end now. Just don't know what to do about the pup. If I keep her I cant in all conscience  breed from her as although I have her papers I am certain they are incorrect. I don't want to show her for the same reason. Even if she turns out to be showable then her details are wrong.

I don't want to return her as I am already attached to her but do I want to keep a dog for the next fifteen years that in all probability will not turn out as I expected and I cant do what I wanted with her. Unfortunately like most people I cannot have unlimited dogs and if I keep her then it puts paid to my plans for the future.

> Is she a licenced breeder (ie breeds more than 4 litters per year)? If not then the two litters within a year regulation doesn't apply.

No not a licensed breeder. Has that been changed recently? I am sure there used to be a restriction on registering back to back litters? But it is 3 years since I last registered a litter and I have never needed to register one back to back so I could be easily have been mistaken. If that is not the reason  then I have no idea at all why she would have registered the litter incorrectly, unless she thought the same as I did.

It's not a particularly recent change; it's only applied to licenced breeders for several years now.

If the breeder did not know that 2 litters could be registered in a year that could be why as to be honest most of us don't do that and those that do usually have a very valid reason, have had an accident or just breed a bitch to death with no care. Take your pick! :-)

As to the pup, for those of us who bring in dogs due to careful breeding programmes the pup needs to go, if you don't have room it is the only option, sad as it may seem.

No idea what the breed is, but could you not look at other avenues of interest aside from showing?  Agility, obedience etc - so that this pup doesn't have to find herself in her 3rd home (incl breeder) in such a short time, but you can also put her to use, as it were?

Just a thought. Was this puppy from a repeat mating? If so, could you contact any owners of the previous litter and get a DNA sample from them? I am thinking it may be possible to compare it with yours and see if they are full siblings.

> Just a thought. Was this puppy from a repeat mating?

She shouldn't have been but I think she is. Will look into the possibility of doing this. thanks

> No idea what the breed is, but could you not look at other avenues of interest aside from showing?

I am not going to rush into making a decision as I do like the pup and it is not her fault.

> Even if she turns out to be showable then her details are wrong

Sorry, but you are still assuming that her parentage is incorrect. Until you have clear proof then how can you make decisions. If you are uncertain of parentage surely this is a matter to take up with the kennel club. Whilst it does seem suspisious that there is no photographs etc of mum with pup, is it not possible that this puppy is just acting different and maybe taking on trates of lines further back in her pedigree? surely we cant expect a carbon copy each time we breed ? Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Is it possible to ask if she has a photo with mum n pups but maybe just didnt send it to you, ask her to send it to you just  ?

EDITED TO SAY: just re read some of the posts and i would be kicking up a stink on this, if she has nothing to hide she would agree to DNA test immediately.

> I saw the pups in the living room. the "mother" was brought in for me to see. It did not occur to me at the time, but only afterwards when the mother was brought in she had no reaction to the pups and they had no reaction to her. I know my own bitches if they had been separated from their litter even for a few minutes would have gone to their babies and checked them over, and the babies would have rushed over for a feed. There was nothing like this between the bitch and the pups.
>

How old were the puppies at this point? sounds incredibly odd, mine were all still having a cheeky drink from mum until they left our home. Admitidly mum was a bit fed up by this point and may have been more interested in having a fuss from you but would have been mugged by pups non the less lol.

> I did not see the other bitch on my visit as I was told that she was very protective of these pups even though they were not hers so the breeder did not let her into the living room and would not let me see her anywhere else.

Very odd indeed.

IF your suspicions are correct, friendship or not, this should be dealt with accordingly, its fraud at the end of the day.

on the same train of thought, I don't know much about how dna works but what about either of the potential dams parents? Would it be possible to get an accurate enough result from a grandparent or is there a chance that the lines are connected anyhow?
if you got a sample from potential litter mates you would be relying on her having been honest about the previous litters parentage.
good luck, I'd be furious and would really have to know.

> Just don't know what to do about the pup. If I keep her I cant in all conscience  breed from her as although I have her papers I am certain they are incorrect.

contact the kennel club and they are sure to require DNA samples, as cases like this have happened before, even before DNA sampling was available.

Then if you get the correct parentage applied you will be able to breed from her if you wish.

I agree that if she had nothing to hide, she would be happy to provide DNA  :)

And in the end it makes a mockery of breed databases and COIs.

Our pedigrees are built on trust and these fake matings get passed off as truth....altering everything.

Health, linebreeding and familial traits are all called into question.

There could be a male who goes on to be a successful stud and these dishonest breedings can penetrate an entire breed.

The KC should insist that any 'dubious' matings be DNA matched or their entire Mate Select and Health Test Checker schemes are flawed.

Surely like any breed they can have throwbacks at any time?  I know in our Pomeranian's and even y Spanish Ive had dogs that look nothing like their parents, also with colours that we've never seen in many generations.