this is a different practice to the first. i have passed info on

Louise, somewhere in the recesses of my mind, - it's been many, many years ago, - l seem to recall a breeder in my breed, having a similar problem with her pups. I think it turned out that the bitch had "acid milk", and it was that, that was causing the problem. Now l can't be absolutely certain about this, but l think she gave the bitch a small amount of bicarbonate of soda in her drinking water, and if it WAS bicarb which she gave, every time that she had an in whelp bitch, they would be given the mixture for, ( l think), 2 weeks prior to their whelping date. As l said, i'm not sure if it was bicarb., but whatever it was, it was to sort of neutralize the bitches milk l think. I'm sorry that l can't be more specific, but as l said, it was many, many years ago now.

The vet school moved over to the Wirral a few years back but the surgery that ran out of the same building in Crown St. is still there and has a good reputation from what I have heard.

After she said whats above yesterday i said take them off her if your worried. Shes gone for her stitches out today and the vets have taken a sample of milk and blood to test and shes been told to hand feed from now on. I hope its not acid milk as i said keep the pups on her they need it :(

I hope its not acid milk as i said keep the pups on her they need it

Louise, if it is acid milk, you nor anyone else would  have known. Your advise to keep the pups on her, is what probably all the knowledgeable breeders on here would have advised her to do as well. I hope that someone on here can confirm that Bicarbonate of Soda is indeed the product used to rectify acid milk. I know that only a small amount was used.

I'd always read that Acid Milk was an old wives tale and there was no such thing.  Off to google.

Found this on toxic milk, http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/breeding/toxicmilk.htm though based on what has gone on here it is more likely the lack of first milk that may have started the problem in these pups, robbing them of the maternal antibody protection to ordinary environmental challenges. 

It is most important that any supplementation goes with rigid sterilisation of feeding equipment and feed.

I'd always read that Acid Milk was an old wives tale and there was no such thing.  Off to google.

Hi Barbara,

You may very well be right LOL. As l said, it was a very long time ago that l was told this, and l am also an "old" woman now, so it would fit LOL. Let us know what you find out.

puppy cellulitis? whats this

I'm so sorry for your friend. I went through similar with my girl in December so know pretty well how she must be feeling.
C section and nearly lost the mum on the table - 3 surviving pups. She was very poorly for a while.

Puppies got diarrhea, first coming down as a day old, she was just constantly leaking out of her bum :(.
She had antibiotic injection&I was supplementing her as she was too weak to suckle.
We lost her after 14 hours fight, I thought maybe she had something wrong with her(organ not working properly)...

Sadly next one came down with it very soon after losing the first so I knew it was probably some kind of bug we were fighting against.
Of course I was going to fight to save her so after thinking very hard what to do off to the vets we went again.
Antibiotic injection and liquid under the skin.
The vet basically told me I'm going to lose her too and was not going to give me any more antibiotics to continue after the injection wears out :(...
But I fought my corner and said I want some, I'm paying for them so should be given some regardless of the fact they think the puppy will just die.
I also got some liquid to put under her skin for when she gets de-hydrated.
By this point I must have been looking like right mess as I had been up for nearly 2 days, was very worried of my girl and the pups.
I think to shut me up and make me happy for little while they gave me what I asked for.

This time the puppy was little stronger and I decided to keep putting her on to mum every 45-60 minutes for as long as she was strong enough to suckle even little(and keep an eye on her hydration and rehydrate when she got dehydrated).
We had about 4 hours where she got very weak and stopped suckling & I thought I will loose her too but just like a miracle she picked up and started suckling again after that (I kept her hydrated through).
Of course we did not know how long the diarrhea will last or if it will ever pass.
The bug lasted for little over 24 hours and she started to not constantly leak but actually had periods when she stayed dry for a little while.
Then slowly over few days the poop firmed and got back to the normal puppy poop texture(except it was bright green due to the antibiotics).
Just when I thought we were out of the woods, the last puppy started with it!

It is such a difficult situation and trying to decide what is the best thing to do especially when you are knackered and different people advise different things Keep the pups on mum/take them off mum, separate the sick puppy from the rest/keep them all together, give milk supplement, give lifeaid, to give antibiotics or not...)
Is it bacterial infection, virus, mums milk, should tests be carried out on poop, milk -will the results come in time to do anything about it?
After loosing the first puppy so quickly I really thought I'm fighting a battle I will loose but the other two pulled through!

I hope rest of your friends puppies stay healthy but if they do come down with it, try supporting your friend through it.
I was sat in the phone with different friends through it all and those few encouraging words and somebody just listening really helped me to cope in the moments I felt the lowest!

I hope your friend will manage to find a vet that knows what they are talking about as that could make a big difference in survival of the pups if they come down with something.

the bitch pup has strangles now i dont know much about it really just what ive read on the net in the past 10 mins. They are only just over a week so too young for steriods, how could a litter so young have got this and what can they do?

It's another of those things that gets a hold when the immune system is weak, caused by common bugs that they would normally fight off with the aid of the mothers first milk.

wouldnt keith shea be of any help at least  hes well up on breeding matters etc or may have suggestions of who to get in touch with?
just a thought I do hope you get something sorted quickly

Oh gosh, just been reading all this. How awful! Are there any updates on mum and pups?

Mum and pups doing well all 3 have strangles but recovering without the use of steroids. She is keeping all 3 and never again breeding xx

Just a word of hope for your friend. I had a pup with Stragles once. He was very ill and high doses of ABX and steroids got him through. Apart from a very scarred nose he is a fit and well active well grown 4 year old now so they can and do get over it with care and treatment. The owners who had "booked" him while he was well (He developed strangles at 5 weeks old) waited till he had the all clear from the vet at 12 weeks to go to his new home. They reguard his scarring as his individuality and love him to bits. With care good homes can be found for "damaged" pups and I would think it better that your friend only keeps one and homes the others with exta special people. Three siblings will be very very hard work for her. I know after such a fight to pull them through she must feel no one else can give them the homes she can and she must feel a special bond for them but in 6 months time she may feel she has not done the best thing. Tell her to give it a huge amount of thought before keeping all three pups.
Wish her luck from me that they continue to thrive.
Aileen

I'd agree with Aileen.

One will be going to her mums, she lost hers last year i think it was so she will just have the 2. Will they have scars? As they are a light pigmented breed not like you BMD i thought theyd be ok

Ive also had a pup with strangles. It was a guide dog pup of 11 weeks and he was terribly terribly ill. Its a horrible autoimmune disease that can only be treated with high levels of steroids to completely suppress the immune system.  They tend to lose the hair around their eyes, round their muzzle and on their tum, the rest gets very thin and 'undercoatish'.  They tend to have an appearance of demodectic mange, as the mites are always present in the skin even in new pups from their mother, however their immune system cannot fight them off so they multiply and cause hairloss and itchyness.  They get very stiff and sometimes their abdomen gets very tender and sore, kidneys and spleen enlarge and they lose muscle tone very quickly and will need even as pups gentle physio to make sure that their joints are flexed often.  They blister around their eyes and muzzle and their muzzles swell, the blisters pop and leak fluid a bit like chicken pox blisters and yes they do scar and the hair does not grow back in those places.

When Osborn had spent a week in the vets, all he was doing by this point was breathing, they came up to sign the pts papers, he was only 12 weeks old and on 16 types of medication.  I walked in the room to say goodbye and he opened one eye and wiggled just the end of his tail.  They decided to give him a chance and let me bring him home.  To begin with he literally had to be stood up by me and just to just fall over sideways, I had to give him all his meds and because his immune system was described as the same as a leukemia patient, we couldnt take our other dog out, we had to change clothes in the hallway and everything had to be ultra clean.  We gave him hydrotherapy in the bath, we massaged his legs, we played with him when he could only lay on the floor and turned him over at night. He was like that for 3 months and they are not allowed to have their jabs until they have had the steroids phased out over a couple of months and their blood count is back to normal.  So was not allowed to go on a lead walk for 6 months due to mobility and infection risk, so you friend should really think about what that could mean if she has all three with her.  Once I had got him through all that 24/7 I was given one days notice that he was going to the guide dog breeding centre so he could see their own vets regularly thereby reducing the spiralling costs. To say I cried buckets is an understatement :'(

Because of his growth plates not finishing properly due to the steroids his legs and neck bones are smaller than they should be so he is quite a short dog, however he picked up training really quickly and because his learning continued indoors he adapted well.  He ended up with skin problems and scarring on his chin and doesnt have much hair on his belly, but last week he qualified with his new guide dog owner with a very very light workload and total 1-2-1 attention.  (Whether I agree with the fact that he is being worked at all is a different matter however).

Sorry this seems doom and gloom, its just the reality of strangles and its such a horrible thing to live through with a possible long term after effect due to the meds needed to keep them alive.

Edited to say that Ive just read that the pups havent been put on steroid treatment.  Strangles is something that is just a downward spiral unless it is treated and steroids are the only thing that work and can prevent them having a relapse or dying. It was given that name because the lymph glands in the neck swell and so can stop the pup from breathing unless treated.  Just looked at the research I did at the time and strangles is now thought to be induced by a lack of a specific T-cell line in the blood together with a problem with lymphocyte blastogenesis (development) in general.  :(

Ive read through this thread - how awful for her.
How is your friends dog and how are the pups doing now?
Mi_chelle

What a nightmare for your friend. How are the pups now?. I had a pup with strangles in my last litter. I read up and got some advice on it but sadly my vet wouldent believe that it was stragles because all the pup had was sores on the inisde of his eye lids. Well finally after seeing an opthamolgist we got the diagnosis we so badly needed. Sadly 5 months on he still has problems with his eye.