Hi,

I recently sold a litter of puppies all vet checked and KC regd. One of the new owners is threatening to make a claim against me.  They took their puppy to the vet the day after collecting her, who diagnosed a slight heart murmur and dry eye at level 9.  My vet the day before had not picked up either of these, completely taken aback, I immediately offered a full refund and offered to go collect the puppy or to meet them half way, they lived about an hour from me.   She declined and said they wanted to keep her.  We have spoken a few times and their concern seems to be that they think the puppy will die, I have tried to reassure them and continued to offer the full refund for the puppy being returned to me and they have still declined.  She is now 11 weeks old and at the weekend I received a letter requesting as a gesture £325, half the purchase price and no further mention of the puppy being returned.  To be honest for the puppy's sake I really want her back regardless of the money.  The letter states that if I don't pay the £325 they will apply to the small claims court.  I stupidly didn't have a puppy contract in place, wish I had now!  Anything anyone can suggest would help xx

You have offered to refund for faulty goods (though have no confirmation that they are in fact faulty) they have declined so I imagine they are on a hiding to nothing.

Have you anything in writing about the puppy being unfit as a Pet.  What does level 9 dry eye entail?  Does it still have a murmur?  Have they sent you anything from their vet?

I know it doesn't help much overall but it might be worth writing to the people informing them that even if they were to try and take the matter to a small claims court they would still be liable for their own costs even if they were to 'win'. I would suggest that for the case to be taken seriously the puppy would need to be seen by a completely independent vet ( at the new owners cost). It may make them think twice if their costs will end up being more than they can claim back from you!
If there is no puppy contract in place then isn't there a certain degree of caveat emptor?? Have you put anything in writing to the new owners about a full refund on return of the puppy? I would have thought that if they are acknowledging that there is something wrong with the puppy and you have offered this then any court would say that you are being reasonable...if they are saying that they want to keep the puppy then that is their choice and you are not liable as , adter all, a puppy is not a shop second that can be knocked down in price.
Might be worth speaking to the kennel club to see if there is some sort of legal precedent on this one.

I would ask for a report from the vet which will tell you if the pup is unfit for sale first, i would put it in writing to them aswell.

The pup has a slight heart murmur?

Well, I think most of us know exactly what that means, often a pups heart does not settle correctly until older, referred to as a flow murmur, by the age of 6+ months it can completely settle down and be normal. Your vet may well have thought nothing of a slight murmur whereas another vet will scaremonger the client, wish to do heart tests and basically claim as much from insurance for tests as possible, I've heard of this happening to breeder acquaintances of mine with no heart conditions in any lines they use but some vets seem to find them, after up to a year of worry there then appears to be nothing wrong. It may well be the same here too.

At 11 weeks no longterm diagnoses can ever be made, I would ride with it. Especially as the term slight heart murmur has been used.

I don't know about dry eye, but it is a new test my vet has also introduced.

Good luck with them winning anything at small claims court against you, they have no case, you offered a full refund and return of the pup within a day of 'diagnoses' they have continued to decline, in other words they now take full responsibility for the pup and the vet bills, as a breeder you have fullfilled your moral and legal  obligation. They can't keep the pup and have a refund too.

The only time I would view this differently is if the pup died or it was confirmed that it would have impaired health morally I would give a full refund, but legally I would not have to, insurance covers full refund at death, insurance covers vet bills, it is not the breeders responsibility, if they want to keep the pup they take on everything that goes with it - legally.

But for something like a suspected heart murmur which may or may not cause a problem and especially at only 11 weeks, I would tell them to go swing, especially as you have been so brilliant in offering a refund, how nasty to threaten small claims court against you, horrible people.

They have no case against you, they really do not.  

Ask for written proof from the vet that these problems are actually real, then ask to meet them at a neutral vet one that has never seen the pup before and knows nothing of its conditions and ask that vet for a health check. If this vet picks up on it as well then in writing offer the puppy owners a full refund for return of the puppy (take a copy of the letter) ask for a formal reply in letter form. Once you receive this keep it safe and wait...no small claims court will take the side of the owner when they are turning down a solution.

If you bought a fridge (sadly animals come under the sales of goods) and it worked but not fully or had a faulty part that could break ect would you take it back and get your money back or ask for half the money and keep the fridge? Exactly. :) So try not to worry to much.

Thats what i thought - you carnt go into curry's and demand your money back without returning your tv!

Its awfull though isnt it, the vets frighten the puppy buyers but if they didnt tell them then they wouldnt be doing their job :(

Could the dry eye be down to teething i wonder?

Do you know, you are all brilliant. You have all made me feel so much better, I have just emailed the vets concerned and will see if they reply. 
As I understand a test is done and anything below 10 is considered dry eye, so at level 9 to me she is borderline. I have replied to their letter again confirming a full refund on return of the puppy, we shall see what happens next.
Thank you everyone x

> I immediately offered a full refund and offered to go collect the puppy or to meet them half way, they lived about an hour from me She declined and said they wanted to keep her.

Well that is the answer then.

I would not give them any money as they don't seem to have a leg to stand on. I would try to get your offer and their decline in black and white, either an e-mail or letter. Keep any correspondence as evidence.

Wehad the same thing. I offered a full refund too but they declined. they wanted me to pay for surgery. (it wasnt a heart murmer). 3 court appearances later with 3 judges who didnt understand anything about puppies and NO mention by the judge of the refund I was forced to pay for the operation plus £30 court costs. My vet gave the puppy a clean bill of health at both vaccinations one being 24 hours before collection. I dont know what dry eye is but I do know that heart murmers in puppies can come and go until they mature.
I would stick it out if you dont mind the wasted time in court it will only cost you an extra £30 if you lose and you may do better than I did. Also many people threaten court then never bother. What about insurance? Did it leave with insurance as if it did and was vet checked the insurance will sort it out for you.
Hope that helps.

i would ask for a vet report on the puppy, we all know heart murmurs can correct themself, i don't know what the eye problem is but if the pup was insured i'm sure it would cover it, if they don't want you to have the puppy back as a good will gesture offer to pay the excess on the insurance ,

as a good will gesture offer to pay the excess on the insurance ,

Not really a good idea IMO - in the first place why should she offer to pay when her own vet found no problem and in the second it will be a some sort of admittance of fault, there is no fault the pup may will not have a problem. Heart murmurs are more likely than not in an 11 week old pup, don't know about the eye but I would think that at 11 weeks any diagnoses would need a good deal of experience of puppies, wonder how many this vet has owned or indeed seen from a few weeks through to maturity.

I have asked the vet for a report and subject to the new owner providing her consent, they can and will do this for me.  If she is just threatening to apply to the small claims court and doesn't pursue it, do I stand any chance of getting the pup back?
The lady I spoke to at her vet's did say the pup is being looked after.

You appear to have been fair and reasonable throughout.Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I bet you will use contracts in the future ! Good luck.

Crofty, do feel for you but can't understand what they are going to take you to small claims court for, you have offered a refund on the return of the "faulty" goods (according to them) so what else can they expect. From what you say this supposed fault has cost them nothing and one assumes the pup is insured anyway so just what are they claiming for.

do I stand any chance of getting the pup back?

Sorry hun, no chance whatsoever, what is sold is sold.

I think no matter what as things stand your going to lose contact with this couple, they have taken a stand of hostility and threats, even if you were to try to appease them to try and stay in contact with your pup by offering even a full refund, I feel due to how they have acted they will distance themselves anyway.

Their vet no doubt has scared the life out of them, totally unwarranted, but this is what has happened, unfortunately you can not show them a crystal ball of the pup in a years time probably fine and dandy, they don't understand, perhaps if you ask them to go on the Internet and read up about puppy flow murmurs and anything else the vet has worried them with they will calm down.

It's a shame they went to this particular vet.

As a breeder I understand how heartbreaking it would be to lose contact with one of my pups, I know it is one of the worst things for us so there is another option that may help force them to stay in touch.................

.........you could offer a moral option (if you wish) to help keep them on side that if the pups' heart murmur does not disappear within the year and if it did get worse needing medication then you would offer a part refund, that way they may well stay in touch.

It 's totally your decision though, but if you decide on that you need to make it clear it is a moral decision and to be honest I wouldn't do anything without a dog law solicitor as they are making these threats, cover yourself completely. :-)

I agree with Carrington about using a dog law solicitor, and sadly it looks unlikely that you would get the puppy back. I'm sure learning from this that many breeders on here will ask for a cheque in advance so it will clear before the puppy leaves.

Unfortunately some vets try to justify their fees by scaring the life out of the new puppy owners. Last year I had a new owner in tears because the vet, on the check up said there "was a POTENTIAL problem with the eyes". I don't know how many times I repeated that pups heads go through many stages and eyes can be red etc due to tiredness and teething. I offered a full refund which was declined and told them their vet could contact my vet and he could disclose all records of my dogs which would show no problems/operations with eyes. And, at the end of the day I, POTENTIALLY, could get run over by a bus.

Having read your post it suggests that you are still on speaking terms.Why not make contact and try to iron out the issues amicably.This may reassure you that the pup is being well cared for and stop further acrimony.

Any more news on the puppy ?

In April of this year I went through exactly the same thing, luckily I had a contract in place, she wanted full cost of pup and vaccinations back and her keep the pup, I offered full refund and I had the pup back, but no she took it one step further and went to small claims, even down to me receiving a court date,  to cut a long story short she finally agreed to mediation , I gave her full refund of pup only and I got the pup back, he is now living in a lovely home with a fabulous caring family away from this horrible woman.

I did get in touch with Nick Starmer-Smith at Doglaw though and they were very very helpful, I suggest you do the same.  It costs you only for the first call, then the rest is free.

ssk them for a written report and the name and phone no of there vet

Thank you, still haven't heard from them since I confirmed in writing all the facts and still offering a full refund as I have done since day1. Not sure what to think, I could get a letter in the post from the courts or them still asking for more money and they keep the pup. I contacted their vets and with out the new owners consent they will not provide me with details. I have asked the new owners to do this, but again they have not responded.  Just a waiting game I guess. I have tried ringing them just to inquire about the puppy, which I have done with all pups that left me, but they haven't answered the phone. Thank you for everyones help! x

Hi crofty, have you tried withholding your number when you ring them? That way, if they are avoiding speaking to you, they will not know who it is ringing. I would also try ringing them at a different time than you usually do. I hope that you can successfully resolve this unpleasant situation.

Quick update - I have tried ringing the new owners a few times now, withholding my number and at various times of day, still no answer. I have emailed them also asking how the puppy is, no reply either. It has now been over a week since they had my reply still offering a full refund and returning the puppy. I have not heard anything back, i am not sure how long it would take if they were to apply to the small claims court, but it does sound like they are just trying to scam me and they know they don't have a chance as i have done everything right.  They may also be concerned that if they do go to court, they may loose the puppy.
Thank you for everyone's help x