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At tonights show, we had a variety class a long time before the breed went in (YKC STAKES so placings count as a variety class unlike the handling).  My dog were reserve in this class.

They then went into the Breed class and won Graduate which put them in for the challenge for Best of Breed.

They were not lucky tonight BUT it opened the question of "What if he had won BOB"?

Since he was already a beaten dog in the earlier any variety Stakes, could he still go in the Gundog Group even though he would be ineligible for the Best in Show, would it make a difference if the dogs that beat him in the variety were from a different group, eg a couple of Utility and a Pastoral to the scenario that there might be another gundog that beat him in the stakes - all a bit hyperthetical but didn't know the answer....

That is an interesting one. You could not as you say do BIS but if you won BOB and were unbeaten by another in your group then you would think you could do the group - but then again that is a daft as you can not do BIS as a beaten dog. Look forward to the answer.

Seems like we were at the same show :-)

I've got a similar dilemma with an Open Show coming up soon.  Judged on the Group system, there is only one breed class for me - Open - which I have not entered my puppy in (already got the OK from the KC that I do not have to enter the Open breed class).  Instead, I have entered AV Working Puppy. Should I win that class (fingers crossed everyone please :-)) and the breed open class was won by a puppy of the same breed who would automatically be B.O.B, then can I enter in Best Puppy in Group as I will not have met the B.O.B and will be an unbeaten puppy. I tried to ring the KC today and gave up after 20 minutes.  The Show Secretary (who is very new to the role) didn't know the answer either.  In fact, he refused to accept my entry in AV Working Puppy to begin with as I hadn't entered my breed class which is why I got in touch with the KC.  All hyperthetical I know, but I don't want to be in a position where it's my opinion against the secretary on the day if I can sort it out beforehand.

> Since he was already a beaten dog in the earlier any variety Stakes, could he still go in the Gundog Group

I had this situation at a champ show. I was 3rd in the veteran stakes, then won the CC and BOB and wasn't allowed in the group because she was a beaten dog, neither of the dogs placed above her in the stakes class were hounds, based on that the answer to your question is no.

jackgirl - the first part of your question is covered in the definition of Classes which appear in the show schedule:

A dog is not eligible for entry in Variety Classes (excluding AVNSC classes) unless also entered and subsequently exhibited in a Breed class where such a class is provided for which it is eligible. Exemptions from this Regulation are:
(1) a puppy, unless a class for dogs under twelve months of age for which it is eligible is provided for the breed

So if there is not a Puppy Class in your breed then you can enter the Variety Puppy Class instead.  However, don't forget that the judge will award a best puppy in breed even if the only class is Open.  In my breed we often struggle to find breed classes so often have a few puppies in the older classes.  I'd rather enter the breed class than AV

As to the second part of your question that's also covered in the Schedule under Rules and Regulations but is summarised below:

Where a Best Puppy in Show competition is scheduled the Best Puppy in Show is a puppy which has competed and is unbeaten by any other puppy exhibited at the same show

It's much longer than that obviously but essentially Best AV Puppy can enter the Puppy Group, as long as it is unbeaten by another puppy.  You could then meet the Best Puppy in your Breed...    Does that help?

I think I've found the answer to my original question to (having read the Show Regulations)

Regulation 27.B.1 The Group is made up of The Best of Breed winners in each group provided that they are unbeaten winning dogs

So no matter who or what beat him, he would not have been able to go forward to the group but I can't see any reason for him not being able to go for the Best of Breed as that simply says in the same regulation that the BOB is made up of those first prize winners in the Breed class.

Thanks dogsababe, that's exactly how I read and understood the regulations but the show secretary seemed to have a different view!  As I like to support our local shows I have entered my adult in the breed open class and as I am going on my own, entered the puppy in the AV Working Pup class to give them another entry.  The secretary was going to refuse this which is when I contacted the KC who confirmed I was OK.  I was just mulling over the possibilities when it came to BPIG and BPIS.  I might not even get there but at least they have had the benefit of the entry fees to boost the club coffers :-)