We had our bitch Premate tested 1st on Thursday last week - not ready, then Saturday morning - not ready, then this afternoon - She has ovulated and to Proceed to mating!  (Vet could not tell me any more than that even though I asked if they could say when she may have ovulated.)

Last night, even though we were testing today, we thought we'd try the dog and bitch together as the dog was nearby over the weekend - they were both very flirty and had a good play, he was keen, but she kept sitting at the critical moment.  He was trying very hard and seemed very interested. Had planned another try tomorrow but when result of premate said proceed to mating we made a quick dash to try them again tonight.  He was very pleased to see her when he arrived and she was VERY keen to see him!.  She was flagging her tail and her bits were moving up.  They played and he tried to mount fairly quickly.  My OH held her when he got on as she was still a bit 'squirmy', she then squealed.  Now I think he got her but they certainly didn't tie.  In fact it was very very quick (OH didn't think he got her but with a squeal like that I think he did for certain!)

After that he seemed to lose interest.  SHe was continuing to flirt like mad and he would lick her (at both ends!) but any attempts to get on her were very half hearted.

We gave up after just under 2 hours with the plan to try again tomorrow.

So 2 questions:

1) If they had a very very quick slip mating, is this what could have caused his loss of interest?  Had he 'finished his job'?
2) If she was not ready on Saturday morning and then had already ovulated by this evening, I work out that the window is from now until maybe friday/saturday.  Not being able to pinpoint exactly when she ovulated (although i think it's most likely to have been yesterday or even earlier today) makes it not as straightforward as I had anticipated timing wise (darned bank holidays!)
3) For tomorrow trip, do we hold her right away and let him get straight to it as soon as he arrives when he is dead keen, or do we just let them get on with in and just be ready to assist once tied?

One thing the vet nurse said to me on the phone when I got the results, is that it can take 2 days for the sperm to get to the eggs to fertilise them.  I can find no reference to that in any of my books which I have read, read again, and re-read over the last few weeks/days.  Any thoughts?

Oh and one final question which I'm sure no one has the answer to...why are these thigns always so bloomin difficult when you have thought and planned and want it so much, and it's likely to be your last chance for a litter!

Thanks

The eggs don't reach fertilisation stage until two days after ovulation so she isn't fertile yet if she has only just ovulated, hence lack fo real interest after a little bit of testing the water.

If you were having AI the semen that lives for only hours after thawing is inseminated 3 days after ovulation.

She will still have fertile eggs for another two days after that, so I would say it is early yet.

Thanks for this.
Yes I was working on that assumption, but with not knowing exactly when she ovulated (although it would be mostly likely yesterday or today even as her levels had not started to rise on Saturday morning) I can't be certain when 2 days after ovulation is exactly.  I am annoyed that I can't pinpoint it having done 3 tests!  I guess Im just panicking..as I said this is such a long awaited and special litter that I'm stressing over everything...probably unnecessarily I know!

I was hoping for an answer on the slip mating question though.  Having never seen a slip mating happen I am only guessing that this is what happened as it was so quick.  It's just the squeal that makes me think it happened.  OH still isn't convinced.  I know if we get matings tomorrow or later that particular question wont matter...but there's a whole 20 hours until our next try at a mating and I need something to cling onto until then! lol

Earlier this year I made a last ditch attempt at getting a litter from one of my girls.  Like you, I was testing daily. 

I got one slip mating.  He definitely ejaculated inside her, but there was no further attempt, although I tried for days.  Unfortunately, she was not pregnant and now I am having her spayed, as she will be getting too old for a first litter. 

I was hoping for an answer on the slip mating question though

If it was very quick and just a squeal it is possible he just 'touched' her and I wouldn't call that a slip mating.  Probably everyone has their own opinion of a slip mating, I call it when the dog is actually in a bitch and 'working' but she fails to hold onto him and he slides out having (hopefully) left a little sperm inside.

I too think your bitch may be a little early - good luck on your next attempt...

my opinion on a slip mating is when a dog penetrates, climbs the ladder (ejaculates) but for whatever reason the tie is not achieved, however a true slip can still result in puppies as i have had 2 litters from slip matings, but like i say these were definate slips and the male dog went through the tie process (swollen bulbus gland and drip fluid for around 20 mins, then everything neatly put back away lol) so it was a guarantee that the goods had been delivered so to speak.

If a male just gets in and thrusts that does not neccessarily mean he has actually ejaculated, your girl squealing was most probably because he found the right spot, but she wasnt quite ready yet...which is also the most likely cause for there being no tie...JMO

How did you get on with the next mating attempt?

Thanks for asking.  Another 2 hour playtime for them but still no mating.  He was again sniffing and licking and a couple of very half hearted attempts (almost out of  courtesy) but he just wasn't really that interested.  His owner says that he is usually really very keen when their bitch is at her peak (for about 3 days at the end of week 2 (although they may not have detected her season spot on day one), and he  successfully mated a different bitch earlier this year.
My friend who owns the bitch whom he mated said that her vet uses a different premate test (I thought there was only one) but her vet gives her a number (pressumably the Pg level) and says to mate when level is at 6 (pressumably Ng/ml), which would be around when the bitches eggs are maturing, not ovulation.  She's never ever had a problem getting matings in about 6 or 7 litters.  Our vets uses Ovucheck Premate (Synbiotics) which only gives shades of colour to determine rough levels and that our test late on yesterday showed that she had ovulated and to proceed to mating.  Now as she was tested on satuturday am and there was no rise in her Pg levels, I think she is most likely to have ovulated on Monday or even yesterday am.

I know I tend to over analyses these things and get myself worked up but what do people think about the timings?  Am I right in guessing that ovulation is likely to have occurred on Monday / tues am?  Is it likely that the dog knows when the eggs are maturing and would not mate before this had happened, even though ovulation had taken place?  I know they are all so different and it's difficult to generalise.

Do you think its more likely that she is not yet ready, than that she has gone over?

I dont know how people keep putting themselves through this!

We are very very lucky that the dogs owners are being just brilliant and are as keen for this to happen as we are, but I do feel so bad for dragging them here day after day.  Another try tomorrow and jeez I hope something happens.

Do you think him coming to you rather than the normal her going to him be putting him off.

Some males won't waste their energy on a bitch who is too early or gone over. How is she reacting?

Let's hope tomorrow is better

Hi
Well it doesn't seem to be bothering him.  For his previous mating with the other bitch he went to her as well and they had 4 successful matings.  The owners just don't have the facilities/ space to do it there.

Would you class a dog who has been used once (4 matings) as experienced?

She is very flirty and chases him around the garden.  She stands although she does wriggle a bit, or spin towards him when he has put his leg on her.  We left them to it for a while to see if us being there was putting them off, but to be honest they both just wandered around when we weren't there.  When we went back out they were flirting again!

Well just spoke to a vet at my practice and he agrees that the tests indicate that she ovulated on around monday or tuesday morning but that she has probably gone over.  Now he hasn't obviously been reading the books and websites I have which all say that eggs mature and can be fertilised (so technically she should be at peak) 2 days after ovulation (which is today!) and should be viable for another day or so!

Today her vulva is becoming less swollen and her discharge is paler pink.  Today is going to be a very long day at work!  Everything tells me she is peaking now, just hope the boy thinks so too.

I think I should go by your instinct now.   When the vulva is swollen, the dog can't get in  unless he's really forceful, when the bitch will squeal.      I guess this is what happened before. 
   
Not a sure fire way of telling the right time, but as often as not the colour changes to pink/straw colour at the right time, although bitches will sometimes bleed all through.       I think  the boy may be a little put off by her reaction last time (sensitive boys do remember!!), so you may need an experienced hand to help.   I would not try again on your girl's home turf.

We find 4 days after ovulation is often good - but of course bitches vary. 

I think it's maybe a little odd that a stud dog owner hasn't the facilities to mate a bitch at home, but there you go........  

If you live in the South, I can give you the name of a super person to help if you PM me

Jo

These vets seem to know very little about the physiology of reproduction, they just seem to lear to deal with any problems when they arise and in some cases not very well.

The eggs are viable for approx 5 days and take 2 days to ripen after release from the ovary [ovulation] during which time they enter the fallopian tubes and travel to towards the uterine horns, the sperm then meet up with them and if ripe/viable then fertilization takes place, there are so many hurdles along the way it is a miracle so many pups are born.

Keeping things crossed that tonight is the night.

Oh you and me both Rhodach!!

I've never felt so sick!

> I think it's maybe a little odd that a stud dog owner hasn't the facilities to mate a bitch at home, but there you go........  
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Why/  Most exhibitors these days own their dogs in a domestic situation, often keeping one sex, so may have other males at home and not be able to have bitches visit without upsetting things at home.

I have used several males where they came to me due to this situation, and also have a friend who has more than one male and her older male came to do his stud work at my house (I am his breeder), and her new youngster may do too, or I may have her other males here to help out.

Yes, I suppose so if the males get jealous of each other.     We're lucky (not crowing about it), and hadn't thought of problems others might have.    I was just thinking about the space it needed to effect a mating!!!!

Jo

Well...no success again tonight BUT...he was MUCH more interested tonight and tried his very best to mate her but she just kept sitting or doing shoulder rolls or moving away when he mounted her.  She would stand and flag and look like she was inviting him but then wouldn't stand still!!  He gave it his best shot.  GOing to try again int eh morning.  When we tried to hold her, he wasn't as keen and wouldn't try to mount.

Even though we didn't get a mating, I am encouraged by the fact that he was clearly more interested and she is clearly more 'ready'  This tells me that she hadn't gone over (do you think I'm right in thinking that?)

I don't know what to think about the Premate test other than that next time (if there is one) I wont use that particuar test, I'll most likely use one with a quantitative value rather than a colour change.  I don't know if it is actually right in that she did ovulate on monday / tuesday and is now at her peak as the eggs have matured and are ready to be fertilized...NOW.

Anyway..another day of hoping and wondering and stressing!  tomorrow going to be a hot one too so we'll need to be careful they don't overheat!

I really don't think that him being away from home has actually affected it.  His owners are not experienced stud dog owners nor do they own multiple dogs, just one bitch.  They live in a cottage with a smallish garden, no outside kennels, they live all together in the house...just like us.  We just happen to have more outside space!  Just so happens that he is THE most suitable dog for our girl in terms of pedigree, working ability, conformation, health and temperament,  and they agree and are helping us out with what works best...talk about going the extra mile, they have been bringing him here for 4 days now.  I'm so grateful to them for what they've been willing to do.

If she ovulated Monday/Tuesday then the eggs wouldn't be ripe for fertilisation until Wednesday Thursday and should still be viable until Saturday/Sunday.

In my breed many males will not mate a bitch until 2 to three days after ovulation, even if she is very willing.  When AI is done they do it three days after ovulation (though they use a quantitative test for reliability).

In my breed I have rarely had a bitch (except one that already had a couple if litters and was mad to get mated) be mated as early as ovulation, which is why they appear to usually go early (it's 63+/- a day from ovulation that pups are normally born).

Yes I think that's where we are but I suppose I'm just surprised that we haven't yet had a mating if she ovulated on Monday / Tuesday.  Although to be honest I am losing the plot and keep forgetting what day of the week it is so I am constantly working out and re-working out the dates!
Anyway as I said my biggest worry now is getting her to stand properly.  Her sister was aparently quite jumpy when she was mated too but they did manage 4 matings.

Your experiences have helped me a lot Barbara, I have searched for previous posts and many of your posts have been very re-assuring for me.  My breed is also a primitive spitz breed and there could be similarities in their reproductive instincts!

>Anyway as I said my biggest worry now is getting her to stand properly.

Have you got an experienced person with you (used to handling the boys), who can help guide him in?

Just thought I'd bring things up to date.  From Friday to Sunday the boy stayed with us and both he and our girl were quite clearly 'mad for it'.  He seemed to be very sure she was ready but she continued to squirm away or lie down at the last minute.  EVen when he was so desperate we tried holding her still and then he would just hold back and not make any attempts to mount.

Anyway, Saturday morning, we did have a slip mating, a proper one (if you can call it a propoer slip mating!) this time.  He got in, was thrusting and ejaculated inside her - we are pretty sure of that.  Just no tie. 

Thought maybe she might be more keen to stand after that but apparently not.  He must have been just so lucky to get her that one time.

Anyway, she has lost interest now and I guess the long stressful wait begins.  I'm worried that it was just too late if she did ovulate on Monday / Tuesday, and that it just wasn't enough with only the one slip mating but nothing we can do about that now...just keep everything crossed.

Keep us updated, you might just have just been in time Saturday.

Will do.  Hoping you are right!

I'm guessing that I would work out due dates from Monday / Tues (ovulation) rather than Saturday (1st - well only mating) then.  Is that right?  Quite a variation in dates,

I would base the due date on the Saturday slip mating and not the squeal earlier in the week as he didn't ejaculate inside her.

What day in her cycle did the mating finally take place as a guide line for next time.

Keeping things crossed for her being pregnant.

Yes I now know that the earlier squeal wasn't a 'proper' slip mating...having seen the one on saturday.  Do I not take her due date from the ovulation date though?  There's a 4 day difference.

She was day 17 on Saturday.

Personally I would base her due date from the mating but any bitch can go a week early so any whelping plans are based on that.

My Lois went 2days early from one mating on day 12 and then next time mated day 12 + 14 and had them 63 days after second mating so it can vary with the same bitch.

Maybe an experienced scanner will be able to pinpoint the gestational age of the pups to give you a better idea if she is pregnant.

>Do I not take her due date from the ovulation date though? 

Traditionally due dates are calculated from the date of mating, making her due date August 6th.

> Personally I would base her due date from the mating but any bitch can go a week early so any whelping plans are based on that.
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> My Lois went 2days early from one mating on day 12 and then next time mated day 12 + 14 and had them 63 days after second mating so it can vary with the same bitch.
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We have to take it from mating if we do not know when a bitch ovulated and then we get the more variable whelping dates.

Bitches actually normally whelp 63 days +/- 1 day from ovulation, so if ovulation date is known then whelping date can be counted from then.

The proper slip mating occurred 4 days after ovulation.  So if she is pregnant she is most likely to whelp 2 - 4 days early to the mating date.

Had my bitch blood tested for ovulation on Monday 10.30am - came back 'ovulation has occurred - mate within next 24-48 hours' Pg level 24.

We mated her Monday pm and Tuesday pm - tied both times.  On re-reading this thread, do you think we should try again today - just to make sure?  Someone mentioned 4 days after ovulation was good for them so we may have been a little early.

Opinions please...

Also, at what level of Pg does ovulation occur or do bitches vary?

She has only just ovulated and the eggs won't be ripe for fertilization for 48 hours so I would have mated her Wednesday at the earliest. Of course the sperm from the matings you did are viable for a few days but I would mate again.