Hi all, I am fairly inexperienced at dog showing have been doing it for a while  but only at lower level but have a question for you.  I live in France and show Golden Retrievers, very rarely do we get a chance to show under a British judge so we all look forward to our Breeders shows either National or Regional as we nearly always have British judges.  This Saturday is our Regional Show (no awards on offer) I have entered my two girls in Open Bitch (mum and daughter).  Daughter is only just in this class, she is just 2 years  old and a little immature but has been winning well.  However due to the very hot weather here in the last two weeks she has completely lost her coat and will probably loose more in the bath!!  I have just found out that the entry is small and there are only 2 entered in open!  Do I take the chance and take both or leave the "floosy in the underwear" at home!  I would love to have a critique by a British judge but not at the expense of her getting a "Tres Bon or Bon" rather than an Excellent!
Thank you in advance for your help.
Jan

A good judge should look further than the coat to judge the dog underneath. It matters not one jot that she has no coat as she has moulted and any judge worth thier salt should be able to give a proper critique of the dog. A lovely coat is just the furnishing and in a large class would matter for appearance sake, but if only two are there then she should get what she deserves if she is build well.
Aileen

Agree, the lack of coat should not have any effect on her grading, only on placings in strong or close competition.

I had the same scenario once except here under continental judges and of course Malinois (believe me, a Malinois out of coat looks just as bad). It was back to back shows, two breed champshows. One day my bitch got Excellent the other Very Good and the VG was due to the coat -so all down to what judge it happened to be. It's the one and only time she has received just a VG -lost count but she must have been at shows where she has been graded well over ten times.

If it was my dog, I'd still take her.

Agree, I would take her too. You might get a 'left her clothes at home' comment in the critique but the judge should be looking at what's underneath and not just the glamour.

I would take her.  To behonest I have found foreign judges abroad far more foregiving with out of coat bitches than British judges (home or abroad).  We have won some very big awards with 2 young out of coat bitches under foreign judges abroad against strong competition including W Winners.  I find though in the UK British judges "pick" at the coat as though it is toxic with one that is blowing coat or almost bald and put them down because of it as it is always in the critique after "shame she left her coat at  home".

in the critique after "shame she left her coat at  home".

To be fair that is no doubt for the ringside critic who would no doubt comment on the fact the dog was placed because from the ringside people do not always think about what the judge is feeling and just go on looks. So the judge will say - well constructed dog that moved well "shame they left their coat at home" - it is just self defence and if we did not make all our judges feel they need to explain their choice then perhaps they would stop saying such things.

Isn't the coat part of the dog though?  I know in my breed of Pomeranian's that the coat in reality is the most important as it gives them the look that you are looking for.

Must admit though I'd still take your dog.

I judged Spanish in Spain last week and although I could tell that a dogs coat was the way it was due to injury it's coat was still incorrect for the breed and I did have to downgrade it to a VG rather than excellent.

> Isn't the coat part of the dog though? 

Not for every breed.  My breed would not be left home rather than taken out into the field after blowing a coat.  It would still be expected to work, full coat or not, the guard hairs are still there and serve the purpose.

Climate in different countries plays a part on how much coat the breed naturally carries anyway.  When I judge in America and Australia I know I will see both males and females with far less coat than say in Scandinavia, or northern Europe.  Also in the UK some of the old time exhibitors do not believe in bathing the dogs regularly or combing the coat through for some reason and you get dogs with coats like unmade beds.  I have struggled to understand this as even in working kennels abroad they are kept combed and washed down, even historically back to the 1900's they were combed out and even trimmed for the field.  I think wrongly fashion for a big coat plays a big part in the UK judges mind set for us anyway.

Harkback that's totally different, of course you would still work your dogs with or without coat, but the presentation of a coat at confirmation shows matters more than it would for a dog being able to do what it's supposed to do in the field!

Yes of course the correct coat is part of the dog but then so is moulting and any judge who knows the breed they are judging will know what the dog looks like when out of coat. To shed is not a fault so should it be faulted?

> that's totally different, of course you would still work your dogs with or without coat, but the presentation of a coat at confirmation shows matters more than it would for a dog being able to do what it's supposed to do in the field

So the term "fit for function" is irrelevant to you in evaluating a breed bred to work in some capacity?  This highlights the problem of some breeds being bred to the extreme for the show ring creating exaggerations with a show type that would never ever be able to do the job for which it was developed for in the first place.  Sad. 

I will place a balanced, sound dog, correct to the breed standard and fit for purpose with a not so glamorous coat, over a poorly put together specimin with a huge flowing coat any day. 

Have to agree, though I suppose a toy breed like a Pomeranian purpose is to look pretty ;) but it still has to function as a dog, so construction has to be more important than clothing (coat) which comes and goes.

Now incorrect coat is something else.

There is a huge difference from a dog who is out of coat and one that has an incorrect coat, but you can judge the coat type even if it is in the throws of being changed. In my own breed the colour may suffer when being changed and that may be difficult for an all round judge to understand but then providing it is the correct colour for the breed it should not matter, our breed is "any shade of" so a judge should not be judging to a preferred shade of that colour.

Have heard the term it is a "coated breed" but do not understand, surely it is not just the coat that is judged?

Thank you everyone for your comments, Megan is fairly well made, she certainly has had some wonderful results so far so I will take a chance and take her.  I don't feel quite so much pressure as the only other bitch in the ring will be Megan's mum and I own both so will be happy whatever the result.  The main problem with the coat loss is that it does make Megan look a little more immature, probably because normally she has a wonderful coat, oh well it'll be a very interesting result - I will let you all know - thanks again.
Jan

You seem to be being very personal and putting words that are not written there.

No I don't mean that Harkback and if you knew me you would know I don't!  My dogs are fit for function, have done gundog work with a couple of them. but coat presentation is very important and should not be ignored.

If two dogs who are fit for function were being shown and one was out of coat and one had a full coat then the full coated one would win if they were in exactly the same condition in every other way!

[iHave to agree, though I suppose a toy breed like a Pomeranian purpose is to look pretty  but it still has to function as a dog, so construction has to be more important than clothing (coat) which comes and goes]

No the coat is not there to look pretty, it has to be shown in a certain style and have the round Pom Pom look the way a Pom should look.  No good it having a coat like a Chihuahua as the coat is what makes them look so different as well of course the other features.  I have done obedience etc. with my Poms in the past so no it is not just "prettyness"

But the coat looking a certain way in the 'pom' is about how it looks, prettiness. 

It's double coat would do it's job to protect the dog from cold, wet and heat fine, even if it didn't look the way it did in the showring (scissored into a round shape and backcombed) as it does in Klein and Mittel spitz etc, who are not presented in as stylized a fashion.

Hi all, just a quick update for those of you who helped with the decision making of whether to take my girl to the show or not.

I took her and she was in the open class against her mum who was in full coat - and my little girl got a 1st Excellent and her mum 2nd Excellent.  The judge said it was a shame she wasn't in coat but that she had a lovely shape and although a little immature she still preferred her to her mum.  She didn't go any further but was considered for best bitch the judge said she would probably got the reserve had it been on offer.  A lovely day which was finished off with a swim for the dogs as we were beside a lovely river.  so pleased I went thank you for the advice.

Jan

That's great! :)

Well I had a similar experience at Southern Counties with a Finnish judge with my mother and daughter.

Mother had just won the CC on Monday at Bath.  At Souther counties the breed does not have CC's and I was able to take mother and daughter as there was a Veteran class I could put Mum in and daughter in Open.

Lexi won the Veteran and reserve Best Bitch, and Inka Open and Best Bitch.

Inka's pups are just 15 weeks old and my breed are rarely in coat after a litter until they are around 5 months old, so she is pretty coatless, needless to say the dog went forward to the group.