I'm having a bit of an arguement with the KC at the moment - I have applied for their £10.00 public liability insurance for the companion dog show I am organising and they won't let me have it unless I fork out an extra £10 for a show licence - when I asked why they said it was to cover the admin costs of the licence (which I dont want !!!).....but does anyone know why a companion show would need to be licenced anyway ? - dogs don't need to be KC registered to show neither do they have to fill in an entry form before hand - wins count towards no additional show awards ...so WHY does the Kennel Club want to take £10 from events that are specifically run to raise money for charity ????

I did say that I would just call it a 'Fun' dog show but was told by the admin staff at the Kennel Club that no pedigree dogs could be shown at Fun dog shows ( is this correct ?- I'm pretty sure I've been to fun shows and seen plenty of pedigree dogs entered !!!)

Now I know it's only £10 but this seems a nice little earner for the KC for no apparant purpose.

Yvonne

If you do not have a KC companion show licence, in theory, any dog who is registered with the KC and wishes to be shown at KC licensed shows or have progeny registered should not attend and no judge who wishes to judge at a KC show can officiate or attend.

You do not have to have a licence and as long as you make it clear to people that it is an unlicensed show and you get insurance elsewhere then no problem. Although I think you will find the insurance company will require, as does the KC, that anyone at the show fills in an entry form.

in theory, any dog who is registered with the KC and wishes to be shown at KC licensed shows or have progeny registered should not attend and no judge who wishes to judge at a KC show can officiate or attend.

...now I can see why this should be so for Open and Champ shows where wins may count towards JW or Ch status but Companion shows ? ....there is no requirement for those who enter these fun events to put down the dogs KC reg name or any other information about the dogs-  indeed it's mostly owners name, address and pet name of dog that's recorded ( and this is usually just so that we can chase up the trophies !) ...and again I can see the logic behind a KC licence if these events were soley restricted to KC registered dogs ( as Open and Champ shows are) but many of the dogs entered are NOT registered with the KC and indeed many are mongrels !!! - how can the KC take money for 'regulating'  companion shows that  when in effect they have no way of 'policing' the dogs entered ??!!

As to judges not attending or officiating - well I can tell you that a great number of KC registered dogs and their owners DO take part in 'fun' shows and some even judge them !...again how can the Kc posssibly control this ???...and if they cannot then in my opinion they have no right to charge fund raisers for a worthless bit of green paper !.

Yvonne

P.S - I have (reluctantly) paid up and got the licence for my show as I don't have time to shop around for alternativ e public liability insurance - however I do think that the KC needs to change it's website to make it clear that their insurance is NOT available seperately !.

>there is no requirement for those who enter these fun events to put down the dogs KC reg name or any other information about the dogs-  indeed it's mostly owners name, address and pet name of dog that's recorded

I'm pretty sure that there's a rule that, if people compete or officiate at unlicensed shows, then they're barred from competing or officiating at KC shows. Having a licence means you can get 'proper' judges and have classes other than crossbreed classes (where the entrants are unlikely to ever take part in KC shows anyway, so a ban wouldn't matter).

> As to judges not attending or officiating - well I can tell you that a great number of KC registered dogs and their owners DO take part in 'fun' shows and some even judge them !...again how can the Kc posssibly control this ???...

Think the answer is they cannot but I for one would not take the risk. There are any number of people who are happy to 'shop' someone who may be beating them or a judge who did not place them, it is a real risk to say nothing of people making a choice to obey the rules of the KC. There have been people disciplined for running and for taking part in such events.

£10 in not excessive and does give you a much better chance of having a good attendance.

I am thinking of attending a companion show tommorow but will check first that it is being run under a KC licence.

I'm not here but, I think there was a ruling last year that the KC could not stop people from judging or showing at unlicenced shows? 

I've been to a couple of shows now for the other "show community" and I can tell you that there are a number of well known judges judging there and some very well known people showing.

The kennel Club simply wish to maintain it's monopoly as the governing body relating to shows etc, so do not want it's judges and exhibitors batting for other teams.  It could be argued that judges are trained by them or by their auspices and therefore are entitled to expect loyalty in return.  After all these judges get their judging reputation from KC events.

I've only been to licenced Exemption (as they were then) and Companion shows, and of course there's no problem about attendance there. I'd say the extra tenner's worth it to attract more entries.

I've looked at their rules and regs and cannot find any mention of KC reg dogs not being allowed to enter 'Fun' dog shows - but then the site is quite muddled and I may have missed it !.

Having a licence means you can get 'proper' judges and have classes other than crossbreed classes

...but plenty of Fun dog shows put on pedigree classes already and get experienced show judges

Yes I agree that £10 is not a lot of money - it's just the principle of the thing ( that and the fact that I'm a stubborn old b****r and would rather that the £10 went to the kids instead of the KC !)

their website justifies it by saying it's so   that the show is held to a certain standard - but does anyone from the KC check ? - I think not !

I agree Barbara - it's more about safeguarding their monopoly - and filling their coffers !!.

Yvonne

...just dug out  a schedule for a Fun dog show being held soon- their classes include;

Pedigree Puppy
Pedigree Junior
pedigree long coat
pedigree short coat
pedigree under 18 inches
pedigree over 18 inches
pedigree open

special rosette for best pedigree

all this and not a KC licence in sight !

Yvonne

There is nothing to stop you having classes for pedigree dogs it is just that some may not wish to attend.

pedigree under 18 inches
pedigree over 18 inches

Would KC allow this as measuring at shows (as in the case of German Spitz and poodles) is now voluntary and the KC implemented this?
Angela

but thats the whole point Angela - this is from a fun dog show schedule and is NOT held under KC rules and regs

Yvonne

I have just joined the companion dog club with my pedigree pup :) and have just taken him to his first fun show last Sat. I am not in the position to attend' real' shows ( or ringcraft )as I don't drive and no-one can take me. As it is I have to persuade my daughter to take us if she is available. I look forward to local shows be they companion  or fun, it's all I have!!
As far as I have read so far, companion shows have to hold a few pedigree classes along with the novelty ones.

Yes I'd realised that LOL but would the KC allow that to happen at one of their licensed shows? because they shouldn't. I certainly would be very annoyed if they did. Where would I find out?
Angela

Ask the KC :-) they usually reply to emails within 48 hours.

You don't need a licence if you have no pedigree classes - different from pedigree dogs! My club runs a 'proper' KC licensed show with breed, novelty and obedience in June, and also a little fun show with just novelty classes in August, and we only need the license for the first one.

You don't need a licence if you have no pedigree classes

ahh but is this true ? ..... there are plenty of examples of unlicensed shows with pedigree classes

It seems to me a little strange  that the KC states that all companion shows MUST have a KC License yet allows UN KC registered ( and indeed crossbreed/mongrels) to enter - it seeems to me that you can have  either one ( Kc events for KC dogs) or the other ( unlicensed events for unregistered dogs) ...the present situation is simply illogical and unenforceable - perhaps a case of the Kennel Club wanting to 'have their cake and eat it !.'

Yvonne

I don't drive either.  If you can get along to ring craft (ask your daughter to take you once a fortnight for example) you will meet people there,a nd you can usually find someone who would be Happy to share the cost of petrol to shows if travelling alone.

Also there may be someone in your breed who would be happy to do so, by joining your breed club you may get to know who lives near you.

Some of the people in the pedigree classes at the Companion shows are likely to attend ringcraft and may be willing to give you a lift to class or even to shows.

The whole point of the Companion shows (used to be exemption) shows is that the dogs were exempt from having to be registered. 

The idea is to get people into Canine activities like Dog showing, Obedience etc, even if it is with a crossbreed or non registered dog. 

Once the bug has bitten people are likely to have a pedigree registered dog next time, or if Obedience is their thing get one bred for that purpose and register it on the Activities register.

When I went to my first Rabbit show I showed my Pet brown grey bun entered him in the Pet class.  Once I had been to quite a few I decided I was really interested and decided on a breed got 12 hutches and away I went.  If I hadn't been able to show what I had I would never have gotten into the hobby,a nd this is the way many people get into showing dogs from taking the family dog to the local Exemption show.

> If you can get along to ring craft (ask your daughter to take you once a fortnight for example)

Thats great Brainless, I hadn't thought of fortnightly - they let you do that then? OH would be able to take me if thats the case. He works 2 different 12 hour shifts- a long week and a short week. On his short week, we can go together :) Unfortunately his shifts include every weekend though :( so thats why getting to shows will be awkward!

You can go to ringcraft as often or as little as you like, same with shows you fit them in as time and finances allow.

Why not try putting on Best 'Condition' Pedigree Puppy etc. it saves the hassle with the K.C and still lets you have pedigree classes. The only ones who may object are the 'show 'people, and they have many other opportuntities to win rosettes at Open and Ch Shows. As you said it is supposed to be a FUN Show and help raise money for our Charities. One thing I would add in K.C favour, they do now insist that letters of confirmation are produced from the Charity which helps to prevent the less honest people from giving our sport a bad name. To everyone who runs a Companion or Fun Show, Well done and keep up the good work. They are a lot of hard work which many don't realise.

Hello,

I'm sorry to drag up such an old post, but does anyone know if this is still 'the rule'?  I can't find it anywhere official now, but I'm sure I read it years ago...

Thanks :-)

ETA, that wasn't very clear...I mean 'the rule' that dogs or judges that enter or attend unlicensed shows are technically disqualified from KC 'real' events?

Yes, that is the rule if it is bought to the KC's attention, I would not risk it but know those who would and do. Find it somewhat distasteful if by doing so they are encouraging the development of designer cross-breeds or lining someone's pocket because there is no charity or dog related good involved. You then have to wonder if they can not be bothered to get a licence how may other corners have they cut.

Thanks.  I agree... just wondering as often I find myself at country fairs and the like where there all manner of dog-related classes, and I guess it's something to consider before joining in.

F3.47/14
Notwithstanding the provisions of these regulations, certain events which are not licensed by the Kennel Club may from time to time be recognised by the general committee of the Kennel Club.
The General Committe shall have the power to grant permission for Kennel Club registered dogs to be entered for such events. A judge, exhibitor or promoter will NOT be prejudiced by participation in these special unlicensed events

Taken from Kennel Club Rule book

I wonder if people confuse fun shows with unlicensed shows.. Years ago, (never see them now) there were a few rogue societies which held, to all intents and purposes, proper dog shows... The schedules were printed similar to any other, but printed quite clearly on the front were words similar to--- This show is unlicensed, or This show is not KC licensed.  Fun shows did not come under the catergory.  There is a rule or at least there used to be, that anyone attending, judging or participating in these unlicensed shows, would be penalised...

I have never seen a schedule for an unlicensed show for aobut 5 years . The last one I did see was when Hunter was still minor puppy...

I was invited to judge at a non KC fun show 2 years ago, and rang the KC to ask if the rule was still in force.  Was told it was, and that if anyone reported it they would look into the matter  - can't remember the exact words used now.

How strange!  I have written word for word from the Rule book

> How strange!  I have written word for word from the Rule book

What's strange Kayc?

> What's strange Kayc?

That they say they would look into it if you judged at a non KC event, when it states clearly in the rule book that neither judge nor participant would be penalised..

> That they say they would look into it if you judged at a non KC event, when it states clearly in the rule book that neither judge nor participant would be penalised..

This bit? "A judge, exhibitor or promoter will NOT be prejudiced by participation in these special unlicensed events"

Not even anything about penalising.... nowhere near, unless I've got the wrong end of the stick.

whoops.. where did that come from.. sorry, my mind was elsewhere.. I meant prejudiced

Well competitors, dogs and judges compete and judge in Schutzhund which is not a KC licensed event with full knowledge of the KC and neither they or the dogs are penalised in any way or prevented from participating in KC licensed events either as a competitor or as a judge.

I wonder how many of us will be phoning the KC for clarification on Tuesday :-)  shall we compare answers

Well fair enough then. It reads from here: We the KC would really really prefer it if you stuck with us, but if you really really want to do something else outside our remit, we may not like it, but we can't really stop you, can we? But hey, we needed to say something, so this is it, the very small print, which not many people will read anyway.
LOL

:-)

I think the clue may be in the "certain events" - so they are OK with people attending/judging some events but want to be able to come down heavy on others?   I know looking at the UK Agility site one of the points it makes is that they sought clarification from the KC about competitors attending both KC & UK agility events and were given the  OK.  TO be honest I can't see someone judging, attending or even running a non licensed event is acutally going to get you hauled up to Clarges St -perhaps there ulitmate sanction in this case would be a firm letter?  However, like lots of the rules, it is about as clear as mud in both it's intention and it's meaning.