What are everyone's experiences with Canine Herpes?  How many of you vaccinate? Have you ever had a litter absorbed/lost through this virus?  What are the signs/symptoms?  I have researched many articles on the net but wondered about "real life" opinions.  Any feedback welcome.

Never had it.  Have never vaccinated for it.  Have never had a litter reabsorbed.  So I've always wondered if I just have a breed that is not famous for it.

Ditto, as far as I know.

Never vaccinated for this, don't believe in it, never had a problem. I DO keep the whelping room at a high temperature for the first week or so which I believe means the CHV and other nasties can not survive if indeed it was around? Who knows.

We will be having our first litter this year and we plan on vaccinating for it.

Never used it with the Boxers in the past. We've used it on the last two FB litters and will def. use it on every litter in the future.  Never had fps (touch wood) and hope we never do.

I had never even heard of it until mine reabsorbed many ( scan showed many puppies) and then 3 that remained were born dead. We were devastated. I'm a dog groomer and I have been led to believe this can increase chances as virus can be carried even on your clothes.
After that my vet advised the jab and same bitch went onto have 7 live puppies.
I then had my next 2 litters using the jab from 2 of her daughters. One had a small litter and one a very large litter.
However, the 2nd of these ( there were 12 ), one puppy that was very tiny right through, died at around 14 weeks as her kidneys were not fully developed. Although I could not prove anything now of course, I did wonder whether I had the 2nd jab too early and I believe it is a live vaccine.
After that experience both of these girls went onto have a 2nd and last litter only recently. I chose to take a chance and not have the vaccine this time in case it caused the problem before.
The same one that produced the small litter had 5 and we did lose 3, the 2 thrived. The other had 15 and we lost 1 due to time taken for litter to be born we think.
After this I felt the ghost of the lost litter was behind me.
I know many on here do have the jab automatically and I was nervous about not having it but that was the result this time.
Diane

My personal view is if the virus is so common and normally with a sound immune system the bitch can deal with the challenge and breed without any major issues.

Are we in fact helping to create (by allowing them to reproduce and be born) with compromised immune systems? animals with an immune system that can't cope with something really common. 

A bit like breeding from an animal with Demodectic mange?

It's not the bitch who can't deal with it, it's the puppies.  It is passed onto them during the birth process, as they pass through - the bitch sheds it.  (If she has it.) 

Not using it is like playing Russian roulette, IMO - you might get lucky and your bitch (who is probably a carrier, as most well-socialised dogs are) might not shed it during birth, but if the virus is activated at the pertinent time, you stand to lose a lot of a litter. 

If you use the immunity argument, why stop there?  Why don't we stop vaccinating all dogs and stop helping out during whelping?  Why are we helping at all?  Let's let only the fittest, with the best immune systems survive...

Used it twice and wouldn't touch it again with the proverbial barge pole.

it's the same argument for em as not using an animal that has suffered from Demodectic mange. 

If the bitches immune system means she cannot deal with the virus as most can (as obviously if it is that common a virus many bitches breed happily with no issues despite it) then using it may be covering up a weakness we should nto be promoting.

For example C sections have became common place in some breeds because they are available and have enable dogs to be bred from that cannot breed without.

My understanding is that the virus only causes a problem to the puppies if the bitch has not been in contact with it before the pregnancy.  Once the bitch has had prior contact with the disease further litters are no problem as she has the antibodies to deal with it.  I would suggest this would therefore mean that the bitch has mounted a correct immune response as opposed to having something wrong with her immune system?  I suppose the argument could be that if the bitch continues to lose subsequent litters to the disease then yes she may have a weakness we should not be promoting?

Rock n Rose, would you mind elaborating on what problems you have experienced with the vaccine?

We used the vaccine as did friends and my suntie. All the bitches were proved and had previously had healthy litters.
After the herpes vac at least 1 pup from each litter had a deformaty of some description. Seems a bit more than a coincidence to me.

Hmm interesting Meme, its one of the reasons I hadn't gone for the vaccine before now.  It does unnerve me somewhat, vaccinating whilst the bitch is in season and then pregnant.  Although I understand that many people have no problems with the vaccine, its also doesn't surprise me to hear that others feel it caused them some problems with their puppies.

Re my  post above, I guess my bitch came into contact that time, possibly via me and whole litter lost. I was told it would not affect future litters. When I used the vaccine last year it was just the one puppy I had a suspicion about but may have been bad luck and nothing to do with it.
I too would prefer not to vaccinate during pregnancy so that is why I decided not to on recent two litters.
My bitch had 7 perfect live puppies after the lost litter but I did have the vaccine as recommended by vet on that litter. I will never of course know what might have been the case without it but my Hannah had 2 litters, 11 & the 7 with no losses at all and then in between lost an entire litter.
Diane

After the herpes vac at least 1 pup from each litter had a deformaty of some description. Seems a bit more than a coincidence to me.  

What sort of deformity are you talking about?

Under 'normal' circumstances what percentage of puppies would have some sort of abnormality e.g. cleft palate? 

What are normal cicumstances for abormalities? I have had 4 healthy litters three we had nine puppies and one we had seven puppies. No abnormalities, all lovely healthy puppies : NO chemicals during pregnacy NO CHV jabs or the like just let nature do what it does best that is produce naturally. Personally I would say a normal circumstance is where the bitch has a natural pregnancy and gives birth 100% naturally. Just my opinion :-)

Second your opinion - probably worded my post wrongly.  Just wondered how often abnormalities occurred in litters.  Could it be more breed specific etc?  Do some breeds/lines tend to carry problems etc.  Perhaps some of our breeders who have had many litters could comment.

Some of you have been very lucky as was I before my lost litter.
As I said my research has led me to fine that litters from breeders who are dog groomers, kennel workers etc have a higher chance of this happening as they come into contact with so many dogs. I am now a lot more careful when coming home from work to avoid bringing the virus home with me.
I had never even heard of it before and it was too late to keep the room warm as the puppies were already reabsorbed/lost.
I have  now used it 3 times and not used it, the jab, last 2 times but after losing the litter was very nervous so needed all the comfort I could get.
My vet did confirm that it was unlikely my girl would be affected again and she had a perfect litter of 7 but with the jab.Hated using it but was an awful experience. I am getting my co nfidence back now.
Diane

I recently lost 6 pups out of a litter of 9 in the week after whelping.Once you have experienced this heartbreak ( first time ever ) you will try absolutely everything to make sure it never happens again. I now have a bitch who is due to whelp a big litter in 3 weeks time,i have vaxed her just after mating and will do again just before whelping.I never, ever want to see this again in my life. There are many out there who have never seen it despite having had loads of litters,they are the lucky ones. Its horrific ,i will never forget it :(

but sad as that is it seems to be the case if it happened once that bitch should not have that issue again, so what is the point of vaccinating her next time.

If the virus is so common yet such sad cases are few, is that really justification for routinely vaccinating.

Or should only high risk maiden bitches be vaccinated.  There seems to be very little rhyme or reason.

"but sad as that is it seems to be the case if it happened once that bitch should not have that issue again, so what is the point of vaccinating her next time."

Because the virus will lie latent in the bitch and due to the stress of pregnancy the rapid increase in the virus towards the end of her pregnancy could outstrip her rise in antibody level, the result being she might infect her puppies at birth again. If the dam does not have enough immunity herself she can't pass it on in her colostrum. CHV1 is notorious for not stimulating enough immunity.

Then why if it is so common a virus, do so may bitches whelp without problems, and going back to an earlier point why do we want to encourage survival of puppies and breeding from those individuals who can't deal with the virus as the majority seem to be able to do?

In domestic animals we already interfere perhaps too often, and end up with animals that can't do what nature intended.

Of course avoiding accidental losses of pups by watching Mum carefully is not the same, and ensuring optimum nutrition and care, but past that are we laying down the start of problems for ourselves down the lien.

For example bitches that miss due to not showing mating behaviour in synchrony with ovulation, bitches that ovulate much earlier or later than is the norm, all these traits can become more prevalent due to our intervention making natural breeding more difficult.  Ditto with C sections and then breeding from the offspring of bitches that needed them due to inherited characteristics etc.  It's a slippery slope?

"Then why if it is so common a virus, do so may bitches whelp without problems"

Surely the amount of posts from concerned breeders on CD points to the fact this virus is now rapidly increasing. We know a vast number of bitches reabsorb their litters or miss altogether so it's highly possible the cause of a lot of this is due to increasing CHV1 amongst the canine population. This virus has simply not been researched enough or is too difficult to research currently due to its nature.

"why do we want to encourage survival of puppies and breeding from those individuals who can't deal with the virus as the majority seem to be able to do?"

I would like to be pointed to any proof in writing that the majority of breeding bitches are able to deal with CHV1 and whelp normal litters. That statement goes entirely against eveything I have read re CHV1.

Personally I cannot accept a valid argument for refusing to vaccinate when prevention of a disease that causes mortality of entire litters is possible. Catching the virus is sheer bad luck and nothing to do with poor husbandry or a failing immune system in the brood bitch. For example CHV1 is just as easy to pick up as Kennel Cough at a show by simply walking past a dog that is infected and shedding the virus.

I agree that bitches who have problems breeding due to abnormal ovulation, mating behaviour or whelping should not be bred from but that's an entirely different issue to that being discussed re CHV1.

You say catching the virus, but others have said the evidence is that it is a common virus, one that most of our dogs that are socialised have been in contact with.

My arguments are if it is commonplace then we should not be vaccinating routinely.

What evidence is there that it is increasing rather than has been and will continue to be common?

If it is common and most bitches deal with it should we not be encouraging that ability, and by vaccinating routinely could we be actually robbing them of this ability.

As it stands for me there is still not enough known about the virus, it's prevalence in the canine population, and also too little known about the effects of the vaccine.

"As it stands for me there is still not enough known about the virus, it's prevalence in the canine population, and also too little known about the effects of the vaccine."

I couldn't agree more. But all we can do is our very best by offering help and discussing it here on CD. In the UK so few Vets are aware of the disease and how to treat affected litters.

I would prompt anyone faced with a FP litter to read and follow the instructions kindly given in Anne-Marie's recently started Fading Puppy Syndrome thread and to give the blood plasma transfusion as quickly as possible as nearly the whole litter can be saved. It's actually quite simple to do and the beneficial effects are very fast.

Can the plasma be from any dog or should it be from onE oF thE parents?

The ideal would be from a related dog who is known to have a high CHV1 antibody level. However I believe in an emergency any blood plasma will do, preferably from a dog recently boostered. In some other countries it can be bought off the shelf as a ready prepared product but we are not that far advanced in the UK.

When I did a bit of research, after my affected litter, some theory is that it been the problem for breeders in missing or small litters and it has not been realised that this caused it. I have  a very good breeding line before and since and the fact that the virus seems to have attacked once does not seem to have affected it longer term as I have just had a litter of 14 (15 ) from one of her daughters and the same girl had 12. ( one with and one without the jab). I did not use it again as a precaution the other way as in the 12 I lost a puppy with deformed kidneys and then wondered whether the jab could have caused it. I had no evidence of course as these things can happen in the womb in any case.
It was just as has been said here, it really does knock your confidence for some while so I used it as a precaution. Did not want too but could not bear the possibility again.
Diane

Hi everyone,

I had bred my bitch to a male from an outside kennel. When the litter arrived there was one still born and one eformed which had to be PTS. Other than that the pups were fine. However the next two weeks were the most awful time of my lif. Pups began to get ill and die every few days. By week three only two were left. By week four we were out of the woods and they grew stronger.Symptoms varied from typical fading puppy syndrome to seisures, vomiting, bloat resulting in hernias ect. Pups were running high temps and had mass watery and bloody stools. I spent all day subcutting warm fliuds and feeding anti biotics ect.

At the time we had two pups autopsied. results were free from parvo, and inconclusive on herpes. However herpes is very hard to diagnose. organs are usually riddled with black spots and there was some signs of this. But I pretty much knew my vet would not want to diagnose herpes as that would lead to the question " why the hell did you not allow me to have it!" So I have no clear answer on why my poor pups died. I did find out that the same male covered another bitch who had similar problems with her pups. The male has covered no more litters? and to date I can not confirm if my bitch was infected with the herpes virus. Herpes is an air born virus and passed between dogs who are active not just through sex but by a sneeze too. So if this male infection my girl chances are all my dogs will have it. Herpes poses no threat to the adult dog population. Only pups in gestation and new borns are in danger becuase they have weak immune systems. So it has nothing to do with the bitch being immune compromised atall.

So last year I vaccinated all my bitches that were covered. sadly all bitches never whelped so now I am left with the dilema wiether to vaccinate or not.