I've been following this litter since before they were born with the breeders very happy that if there were sufficient bitches of show potential I should have one. I finally went down last Saturday when they were 10 weeks old once the breeders had taken their pick, and the lady who'd bred the bitch had taken her pick, and I made my pick. I even got some choice in the pedigree name which I was very pleased with. I could have taken her there and then but I asked if they could keep her for 3 weeks, because in 2 weeks we are on holiday for a week and I thought it would unsettle her. I've just had an email saying that at their 1st vaccination appointments the vet reckons the breeder's pick is slightly undershot, so they have decided to keep my bitch until they know whether the first puppy's mouth will go right again. I hadn't signed any sales agreement or anything, though I do have various emails saying how they would be happy for me to have one, that they are ready for me to come and pick, and after my visit saying they are pleased I am happy with my choice. Is there anything I can do if they decide to keep my puppy? Probably not I know, but at least I can have a little moan on here. Of course I understand the disappointment if their pick turns out slightly less good, but it just seems so unfair that it was all agreed. Next time I will take the puppy as soon as it's old enough, this is the reward I get for thinking of the puppy's best interests. :-( :-(

> Next time I will take the puppy as soon as it's old enough, this is the reward I get for thinking of the puppy's best interests.

It is very disappointed but on the other hand this is what you get for picking a puppy from a breeder whose main interest is improving her lines.  Would you really have wanted to buy from any other type? :)
Chin up there will be other opportunities.

Don't think there is anything you can do but I am surprised that a vet can tell a dog is undershot at 10 weeks, dogs bone is just starting to grow and I think you would need to know the breed very well and to have breed many pups to do so, but perhaps the vet does and has.

No I don't think there's anything either, but I wanted to relieve my feelings and get sympathy. *sniffs* How long does it take for someone to decide if a puppy has a correct bite or not?

Unless the vet is a breed expert i wouldnt take their opinion into consideration. As its a visible thing not subjective why didn't the breeder notice.

They say it looked fine at 8 weeks. Perhaps they'll decide it's ok at 12 weeks when they have the 2nd vacc, but who knows. I'm so upset! :-( It's not that I don't understand that they would want the best puppy, but I thought it was all agreed, just as much as if I had taken her with me.

If you had taken her with you would they have expected you to hand her back over! i dont think so not that you would have done anyway. I know you cant stamp your feet at them but cant you explain your sadness to them get it off your back, write down what you want to say. Id be gutted too :(

I did - I said I was very disappointed as I'd thought it was agreed, but that as I couldn't do anything I would just have to wait and see what they decided, and asked how long it would take for them to decide. I know it was only a case of 'if there are enough show potential bitches' all along, but I thought we were past that stage - like you say, they wouldn't be able to ask for her back if I'd taken her. I will kick myself forever for not doing that.

It seems pretty heartless but as my nan would say whats for you won't go past you, so maybe there will be something uber smart lurking round the corner for you :)

did it take her vet to tell her the pups mouth was wrong!!

What a pity that you were thinking of the puppies wellbeing & didnt bring it with you at the time but as said elsewhere there could be something better in the pipeline.

>> but as my nan would say whats for you won't go past you,>>

My Granny said that all the time too and I firmly believe in it. Sorry for your disappointment

Yes, next time I'll just grab and run - she probably would have been fine with 2 weeks to settle with my 3 dogs before going to the dogsitter. :-(

It depends on the breed as to how long it takes for the top and bottom jaws to settle as they grow at different rates and some breeds like mine have alot of muzzle to grow out.

I sent a pup home with a breeder at 12 weeks and her bite was fine, 4 weeks later it had gone awry but finally came back in line by 6 months old.

I too would be kicking myself about not taking the pup at the time but hind sight is a wonderful thing.

Hopefully the original pick will be OK,are the pups different colours/patterns so you don't get fobbed off with the one with the ? mouth problem without realising?

Yes, I'd recognise the one I thought was mine easily. I'll just have to start again - it's so hard to find a breeder willing to sell a decent puppy and I thought I had managed it. Oh well. :-(

Not sure what breed this is, but I would never take a pup at 10 or 12 wks - too old.  If I were going on holiday, I'd either find another litter with better timing, or I'd take the pup at 8 wks and then ask the breeder to take it back for 2 wks whilst I was on hols.

I appreciate when this subject has come up before, it has caused huge consternation and outcry, but that's still my opinion.

Not sure what breed this is, but I would never take a pup at 10 or 12 wks - too old.

I had my current one of the same breed at 6 MONTHS -no problems whatsoever! Not a breed where age is likely to make the slightest difference.

Lucy, sorry you've had such bad luck. Got to wonder why the breeder and stud dog owner didn't pick up on the bite though? When I have pups I am forever counting testicles and checking bites all the time. But you only need to imagine the reverse scenario; with you yourself as the breeder and you can see the point, much as it is disappointing.

I keep my pups till 12 weeks so they are fully vaccinated and buyers have been well pleased with how they are.

I have had one same breed at 6 months and she settled in really well and put my boy in his place from day one, she had been at the bottom of the pack at the breeders and found a dog who was happy to let her rule the roost.

> Not a breed where age is likely to make the slightest difference

Wasting your time Marianne - concrete thinking. You are quite right of course. I have just let a 14 week old dog go and WOW...he shone..no issues...they are delighted, he hasnt stopped wagging...all the way to California :-)
He's so like ALL his family members.

> concrete thinking. You are quite right of course. I have just let a 14 week old dog go and WOW...he shone..no issues...they are delighted, he hasnt stopped wagging...all the way to California :-)
> He's so like ALL his family members.

ditto several times at 11 to 14 weeks.

Not in a toy breed, 10 weeks is the norm for my breed. I had Ellie at 12 weeks and she's been an absolute joy throughout.

Well, I think we've had this conversation before.

I don't doubt that it has worked out ok for others, but personally, I want to minimise the chances of problems developing in future and *research shows* that getting a puppy at the age of 7-8 wks is one of the most important variables in having an adult dog without behavioural problems.  You can all provide a zillion individual examples of the dogs you've sent away at X wks old, but research - many, many papers of research, carried out under experimental conditions - says otherwise.

I can understand how threatening it must be for breeders to hear this, and if you haven't sold pups come 8 wks, of course you have to keep them and do your best by them - but that doesn't mean that as a prospective puppy buyer, it is equally ok to look for a litter of older pups.  Statistically, you have a better chance of having fewer problems if you look for a 7-8 wk old pup.

>Not sure what breed this is, but I would never take a pup at 10 or 12 wks - too old.

Some of us have breed clubs that clearly specify 12 weeks before pup leaves home. 

I know :(  Unfortunately breed clubs don't always move with scientific research, but instead continue to do what has always been done.

Just one of many papers, but a nice one since it summarises so much:

"The effects of early environment and upbringing during the first year on the development of behaviour problems in the dog": A longitudinal study by K Thompson A McBride and E Redhead

"Early Experience:

****Time of rehoming****

Puppies purchased between 6 and 7 weeks showed significantly fewer problems than those purchased between 8-13 weeks.
Dogs obtained at 6-7 weeks had significantly lower dog directed aggression or fear, stranger-directed fear and non-social fear scores than those obtained at 8-13 weeks. 

****Time of first exposure outside the home****

Dogs commencing regular outings at 13 weeks and under had significantly lower 'total problem behaviour' scores than those commencing outings at 14 weeks and over.
The older the puppy when regular walks commenced, the higher the scores for dog directed aggression or fear, stranger directed fear and non social fear."

> Statistically, you have a better chance of having fewer problems if you look for a 7-8 wk old pup.

Giving this remark when addressing  actual dog breeders is just a joke.
If people were talking about a pet shop one could perhaps see your point.

Whats that famous quotation again?.....Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Check back when you've bred a litter.

> "The effects of early environment and upbringing during the first year on the development of behaviour problems in the dog":

Doesn't seem to take into account the very great character and temperament, not to mention development, variations between all the different breeds.  Its all very well lumping dogs all in together but you are in danger of ending up with statistics that don't apply to any of them!

Ahhhh, I see - sorry, I am so sorry:  I should believe 8 odd breeders on an online website, who have a vested interest in ensuring that it is seen to be acceptable for older puppies to be homed - since they are the ones homing them - over scientific research, which has been independently monitored and proven time and again.

Why is it a joke to tell the actual people who are homing older puppies that it is not ideal?  I think it's pretty serious actually, since it might (would any of them be prepared to hear) help prevent behavioural problems.

As for 'developmental variations' - there is no study which demonstrates that toy dogs develop *psychologically* more slowly than larger breeds.  And of course the study controlled for differences in breed and character - the dogs came from many different breeds and so this was controlled for.

This whole subject just makes me too angry to continue with.  I have no hope of convincing any of you to reconsider anything, because you all want to assume that because you've done it this way for X years, it must be right.  Despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary, which you will all verbally shrug off with one excuse or another.  I'm sure you can all find lots of reasoning to disprove each individual study and to conclude that therefore it's ok to continue and I'm not going to waste my time posting up further studies, which you will all then just dismiss.  Sorry, but it makes me sick because it is so defensive.

NB:  There is a difference between folk who keep pups back because they have to (no homes or pup going abroad) and people who choose to do this, and what I'm saying here is for the latter.

> but research - many, many papers of research, carried out under experimental conditions - says otherwise.
>
>

I think you will find these experimental conditions will be unsocialised puppies versus puppies homed and socialised, not puppies moving from one home where their developmental needs are met to another.

There are probably as many well adjusted friendly pups that go to homes where they have not been properly socialised who then become maladjusted because their socialisation was not continued.

The  you have had pups with holes in their socialisation schedule caused by illness or quarantine and yet because they are inherently (genetically programmed from ancestors with stable characters) well adjusted who have no negative effects for this interruption/late start.

So the real trick is to get a puppy from a good breeder in the first place, who does for pups what they need at each stage of their lives, from feeding Mum well so she had lashings fo milk, to providing care and plenty fo wholesome food, to rearing them in an appropriate way, and breeds from dogs with suitable temperaments.

My breed contacts in the USA are always surprised at how early we choose and home are show potential pups, as most of them like to keep them until at least 12 weeks before making final choices, and their pups have no problem adjusting to family life, if anything the new owners find things easier as they are more mature with bladder control, ready to go for walks etc, and of course because shipping is often necessary, they are more robust to withstand it.

Of couse if your talking about a puppy bought from a puppy farm then you are more likely to have an animal that is acceptable the sooner it is out of that environment the better.

But then no-one should be buying such badly bred and reared puppies in the first place, but those properly bred and nurtured..

Science has been proven to be wrong time and time again over the years as a new theory is tested and found to apply nothing including science is set in stone.

> Science has been proven to be wrong time and time again over the years as a new theory is tested and found to apply nothing including science is set in stone.

I don't think it is the science that is wrong, just the interpretation of the study and the results :)

> I should believe 8 odd breeders on an online website

Well .....they were scientific and reliable enough to tell you everything you needed to know about producing these pups....sharing their considerable experience willingly.

>Dogs commencing regular outings at 13 weeks and under had significantly lower 'total problem behaviour' scores than those commencing outings at 14 weeks and over.

In all fairness, most of my pups have been to the seaside on holiday long before they leave home.  When people come back to me for a second dog, it's because they were so impressed with the confidence and personality of one of my youngsters.  So I do think that you need to be fair to breeders who put so much into the socialisation of their litters.  This is not mentioned in your article.

Perhaps wrong isnt the right choice of words however nothing that invloves living creatures can be set in stone.

Now to put a different point This is taking the OP's thread off topic.

> As for 'developmental variations' - there is no study which demonstrates that toy dogs develop *psychologically* more slowly than larger breeds.

I wasn't particularly thinking of toys nor just psychologically.  I have had both a breed from the gundog group and terriers and the gundog breed was noticiably more precocious.  I believe these variations happen in smaller and larger degrees all across the gamut of breeds.

Why is it a joke to tell the actual people who are homing older puppies that it is not ideal?

Because EXPERIENCE counts for more than anything else. Not the Googling of non-breeders. And it is utterly impossible to pull ALL breeds over the same comb. They are NOT the same. (I often wish all breeds had the Cavalier temperament though!)

I once had a vet tell me my kittens would never settle in new homes if sold later than 8 weeks! They aren't even weaned by then! (And it's funny how in over 60 litters over decades, all sold at 13 weeks or more, ALL have settled.)

Selling a small toy breed puppy at 7 weeks could actually mean the death of it, for a variety of reasons. And guess what? I had my first tiny toy at 7 weeks so I KNOW just how much it damaged him. How much more relaxed the next one arriving at 14 weeks was.

There are many things in life that are NOT ideal, rabid. If it was, breeders would be able to breed the correct number of puppies, in the right sex, colour and conformation for the people on their waiting list. But even the best of breeders may have more pups than people on their waiting list or even if they have plenty of good homes waiting they may have more of one sex and people may prefer to wait for another litter, or people pulling out last minute. The breeder then has to find homes for these puppies and this takes time.

Just out of interest, what do you expect breeders to do with these pups that are over what you say is an 'acceptable' age??

From what you are saying it is the toy breeders who you don't seem happy with as they tend to keep pups longer so if this research was anything to go by then small breeds should have more behavioural problems than larger breeds??? Well I'm sorry but I see plenty of people who have problems with large breeds. I hear what you are saying , it is a well know fact that a puppy's most sensitive period is between 6-16 weeks so good experiences are a must and any bad ones can affect how the puppy behaves in the future. Now even in the best of litters you may have one pup more sensitive than another (just like us humans) and you can home it at 7 weeks or 18 weeks and it will be a traumatic experience either way and effect said pup for the future. Yet another will take it all in its stride and never have a problem. As with any scientific research to make it fair the senario should be the same so each pup should be treated exactly the same for the research to stand in my opinion enviroment plays a big factor in how a pup grows up, as something as simple as hearing a loud noise can effect how the dog reacts and behaves in later life.

You say why should you believe 8 odd breeders on an online website?? Why should they believe you? Let me ask you a question, do you vaccinate your dogs and give yearly boosters because you believe your dogs must have them?? Well I do not booster my dogs as SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH shows once a dog has had its initial jabs these can give immunity for up to 10 years. BUT I would never disrespect anybody who chose not to believe that research and booster their dogs every year, its their choice.

Oh and for what its worth my lab who I got at 7 weeks (excellent gundog) but very shy and meek. One corgi I got at 7 weeks, very sensitive little boy, the other at 10 weeks, very outgoing. Another lab got at 5 mths very outgoing and easy to train. I could go on.

"The effects of early environment and upbringing during the first year on the development of behaviour problems in the dog": A longitudinal study by K Thompson A McBride and E Redhead

I can't find it when Googling so please tell us what breeds were used for the study. Unless they had equal numbers of tiny toy breeds and larger breeds, the study would be as much use as one coming to the conclusion that no dogs bark, having used only Basenjis in the research.

>I should believe 8 odd breeders on an online website, who have a vested interest in ensuring that it is seen to be acceptable for older puppies to be homed - since they are the ones homing them - over scientific research, which has been independently monitored and proven time and again

Does the research take into account the difference between older puppies from breeders who socialise the pups as if they were staying permanently (taking them out and about for new experiences) or the puppy producers who leave them in a kennel unattended apart from feeding? You'll certainly find a difference between them - just as you will with puppies who were both homed at 7 - 8 weeks but one who was kept isolated indoors and the other which was taken out and about.

It's not the age of rehoming that matters, it's the treatment they receive before rehoming that matters.

There are probably as many well adjusted friendly pups that go to homes where they have not been properly socialised who then become maladjusted because their socialisation was not continued.

I agree with this,
I've recently had one of my 'pups' back at almost 4 years old.
He's not been properly socialised nor been taught bite inhibition so mouths people.
:(

This was a dog who left home at 8 weeks old, who had manners as a puppy, bite inhibition was there taught by canines and humans.
Fast forward almost 4 years and he's a complete git with other dogs when on lead, barks/mouths at people given half the chance.
Have managed to almost integrate him back in with my own girls and no fighting with mine but he's been off lead when introduced.
But still got a awful long way to go to get him right if we can.
Gutted you bet I am. I have his litter sisters who were given socialisation etc and taught bite inhibition etc and they are fine.
As are other litter mates. So environment does have a massive part to play in my own experience as detailed above with litter mates
given the same upbringing in my own home and then going out to new homes, ones given right socialisation etc are fine.
The one that wasn't is a complete pig.

I'm sure other breeders could give you similiar such experiences.

> It's not the age of rehoming that matters, it's the treatment they receive before rehoming that matters.

and after, in fact in some instances the pup may be better off having initial socialisation done by it's knowledgeable breeder rather than perhaps a novice new owner going about it badly.

I have seen many baby puppies being dragged hither and thither and over faced, over tired by excited new owners who have no idea what is appropriate for such a young puppy.

They expect their 12 week puppy to be house-trained and able to go out on hour long walks. The reaction by play-biting is a classic one.  Often when questioned these frenzied biting sessions are after over excitement/exertion when pup is absolutely over stimulated and over tired  I have often had to gently remind them that they have a canine baby, growing at a phenomenal rate who needs plenty of REST and PEACE as well as socialisation.

Socialisation has become the watchword, but many people misunderstand and do too much for the puppy to cope with.

I just wondered does this study imply that puppies kept by breeders are somehow socially inadequate and likely to be problem dogs?

There is at least one rescue society that seem to think so.  A friend found out that a young dog sired by her dog who had been mishandled by former owners (not kept properly contained and was going AWOL in livestock area) had found it's way into a Blue Cross shelter.  She travelled down to see him and was willing to take him, (the breeders had emigrated) but they considered her unsuitable as she had more than one other dog, and worked (self employed gardening/maintenance so that she could fit work around her dogs).

She was most upset as from what she found they didn't understand the dog at all, totally misreading him as aloof etc, when in fact he was traumatised and using the classic breed choice of coping strategy (Flight, fight or Freeze) our breed tends to use Freeze, and he had totally closed down and was obviously (to her) very depressed.

She had to leave offering her details for support to new owner.

When he was homed it was to someone who knew nothing of the breed or Spitz breeds generally or of his past (she only had 4 foot fencing).

Please can I ask you all to keep on topic on this thread - a discussion about puppy socialisation is not going to help the OP with her question. If anyone does want to continue another discussion on the best age to get a puppy, please start another thread. Thanks!

Sorry Jane ;)

Anyway sorry Lucy for your disappointment, but I can understand that in the end a breeder breeds first for themselves. 

Personally I'd have been happy for you to have the chosen pup as I would gain as much (if not more) satisfaction from it being shown by someone else, I could try again and hope for a better pup next time I bred.

Back to your problem.

As you show you must know what particular dogs and kennels you admire.

I would make a list and be brave and write to the bitch and stud owners of the dogs you most admire, asking them what breeding plans there are for these particular dogs, and ask if you could be considered for a show potential pup.

If they don't know already, outline your experience in the breed, your recent disappointment (don't overdo that one, just keep to facts) that you have bred yourself, but not produced the kind of quality you would like to be seen in the ring with, or found your bitch to be a particularly good foundation (only singleton pups, problem whelping? etc).

Such a serious enquiry may bear fruit, especially with the kind of breeder that has in mind the larger picture and wants to encourage new serious breed enthusiasts.

If you want a chance of anything like the best you have to go to those who have it.

Thanks Barbara. I've done something similar already which is how I thought I'd found this puppy. There was one other person willing to consider me who were planning to breed towards the end of this year, so I'll have to get back to them. I've also been told of a litter up in Warwickshire which I will probably go and see if I can sort out a time, but then I'm back to the problem of not really having the experience necessary to say whether a 7 week old puppy is promising or not, and I don't personally know this breeder.

Very good advice Brainless,

It can sometimes be extremely difficult to get hold of a show quality pup though, unless you are very friendly with others in your breed, which is why you have to get out there and mix with the show world and meet people to get on that list, I remember a few years ago a friend of mine was desperate for such a pup, she wanted a pup to start showing and had no contacts with breeders of the breed she was interested in, obviously everywhere she went the first choice was for the breeder, sometimes there was second choice but she could never seem to get to that list quick enough either.

In the end I suggested that she just go and view any KC reg litters who had all health tests done, as there could well be a few little gems out there that the breeder did not recognise or wanted to show, this is how she ended up getting her pup along with a friend who knew what to look for.

It can be very hard sometimes.......

Jane ( mod) I have already helped the OP with her problem...she's acting on it as we speak!

Re the bite..
If this is a breed with a standard scissor bite I would be very wary of an undershot bite. I have no worries with a pup that is slightly overshot. The bottom jaw is usually the last to grow so I find an overshot at 8 weeks will turn into a nice scissor bite a bit later on. In actual fact I prefer slightly overshot at 8 weeks than a tight scissor because that bottom jaw as only got to grow a tiny millemetre and you've got a level bite :(

So with this in mind, a lower jaw that is already longer than the top with probably more growing to do, I would be very wary of and can understand the breeder in question but its a great shame for you.

Whoo hoo, hopefully she will with patience find that quality puppy.