Hi everyone. Does anyone have any info on this breed (if indeed it is one) search in Google was interesting but little consistency to be found on the pictures. All looked different some like pit bulls!

Basically crossbreeds of bulldog and other bullbreeds.

So not really a breed as such? Sorry if I sound a bit clueless. It's just that with the so called designer dogs I.e. cavochon etc the name gives it away. Is calling it an old tyme bulldog to reflect selective breeding to create a new healthier take in bulldogs or is it an attempt to pass it off as av established breed to those of us who don't really know better?

They are crossbreeds or mongrels and there are several different people around breeding what they say are dogs that are like the Bulldogs of old England but as you say they do not look at all alike even if they have the same name and by definition are unlikely to be any healthier than a well bred pure bred Bulldog and are just another way for people to spending money on something they can boast about, but can not show, breed or in some cases insure.

There are lots of different types of bulldog recreations, based on different interpretations of what they should look like and taking reference from different points in history. If you want a less exaggerated but still bully dog, then have a look at the Leavitt Bulldog Association - http://www.leavittbulldogassociation.com/index.htm They have to be health screened and deemed suitable for breeding by the committee before paperwork will be issued to puppies. The program was started in the early 70s in America using Bulldog, American Bulldog, Pitbull and Bullmastiff. The modern dogs are quite nice and of comparative type. however, depending on your take on history, old working bulldogs and pitbulls are one and the same.

I had one come to my training classes. I prefered it to the 'normal' type.  not too exagerated.  def did not look like at pitbull.

Then it didn't look like an old working bulldog, instead I would assume more of a halfway house between the extremes of the original one and the modern one. This seems to be the area that a lot of them fall into.

Some of the examples I've seen look impressive, just lack consistency. A person near to where I live apparently had an 'accidental' mating of his bulldog and bullmastiff and was advertising them as old tyme. Nice looking pups (although all puppies are I suppose). I expect he is not alone in throwing the name around which must negate the work of more genuine people. Will the breed ever be standardized to the point it is recognised by kc's?

however, depending on your take on history, old working bulldogs and pitbulls are one and the same.

Which makes them "of the type" under the DDA and therefore illegal in the UK......

Will the breed ever be standardized to the point it is recognised by kc's?

No more likely than any doodles.

Which makes them "of the type" under the DDA and therefore illegal in the UK......

By Old Working Bulldog I am referring to the dogs used for bullbaiting centuries ago, not the modern recreations or KC pug cross - and yes, they would be illegal under the DDA today. If you look at the old illustrations of these original bulldogs and indeed their skulls (there's some in a museum in Tring) you get an animal identical to a modern pitbull. This is a good account of pitbull history: http://www.workingpitbull.com/history.htm

Will the breed ever be standardized to the point it is recognised by kc's?

The breeders of the Leavitt's cetainly don't want to be registered with any KC, I think there was some headway being made with the FCI, but they (LBA) didn't want to go with it.

That article seems to totally ignore the fact that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier of England is a long established breed here and almost intimates that it was invented in the USA as a third type of Pit bull???  That Staffies imported to the USA were in fact Pitbulls????

"The word "American" was added to the name of this very British breed in the 1970's when pit bulls began being imported to the US under the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Most registries simply lumped the two dogs together, since they were the same breed. The AKC and UKC did for many years. Yet the two lines of the same breed had changed in some important physical ways. The pit bulls developed in the UK after the turn of the century had been bred strictly for show and pet. Emphasis had been put on a stocky, "bully" look and small size. Top weight for the breed was 35 pounds - in reality the bottom weight for most pit bulls. Because of these differences, the AKC created two breeds where before their had been one (this has been done several times, as with the Norwich and Norfolk terrier to name one example). Because of this division of the same dog, there were now three distinct "breeds" all originating from the good ol' pit bulldog. The American pit bull terrier as registered by the ADBA and UKC, the American Staffordshire as registered by the American Kennel Club (and by the UKC, but as an American pit bull terrier) and the Staffordshire bull terrier as registered by the AKC and now the UKC. For further clarification on these three lines of dog"

Umm my mate has an old Bulldog called Bill he's big and friendly but Im told he is pure breed.

I looked at that picture but Bill isnt a pit bull he is a lot smaller.

That article seems to totally ignore the fact that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier of England is a long established breed here and almost intimates that it was invented in the USA as a third type of Pit bull???  That Staffies imported to the USA were in fact Pitbulls????

"The word "American" was added to the name of this very British breed in the 1970's when pit bulls began being imported to the US under the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Most registries simply lumped the two dogs together, since they were the same breed. The AKC and UKC did for many years. Yet the two lines of the same breed had changed in some important physical ways. The pit bulls developed in the UK after the turn of the century had been bred strictly for show and pet. Emphasis had been put on a stocky, "bully" look and small size. Top weight for the breed was 35 pounds - in reality the bottom weight for most pit bulls. Because of these differences, the AKC created two breeds where before their had been one (this has been done several times, as with the Norwich and Norfolk terrier to name one example). Because of this division of the same dog, there were now three distinct "breeds" all originating from the good ol' pit bulldog. The American pit bull terrier as registered by the ADBA and UKC, the American Staffordshire as registered by the American Kennel Club (and by the UKC, but as an American pit bull terrier) and the Staffordshire bull terrier as registered by the AKC and now the UKC. For further clarification on these three lines of dog"

Hi Brainless, I've read that too, it's also printed elsewhere on her site: http://www.workingpitbull.com/amstaffpit.htm There's a lot of information on there that may be of interest. I mentioned in my first post regarding the Pitbull/Bulldog being the same as being dependent on your view of history of which there are several, three of which she also mentions it here: http://www.workingpitbull.com/amstaffpit2.html There's also a division between ideas on the origins of the SBT, despite being squashed two inches by the KC standard once recognised. For example, Dieter Flieg argues that they are evolution of the Bull and Terrier cross whereas Mike Homan sees them as being rooted in the old bulldog stock without the terrier cross-breeding. As far as APBTs are concerned the popular version of their history seems to be the Flieg version of Bull and Terrier crosses being exported to America. But having looked at Diane Jessup's evidence and what I've looked at myself, I'm more convinced that the early pitbulls in the USA were taken over prior to the boom in Bull and Terrier crosses in the UK which was predicated by the banning of bull baiting in 1835 with the Cruelty to Animals Act. I've no doubt that later UK dogs went over and were bred in, as she says. UKC stopped dual registering the AKC Amstaffs a year ago btw. They will only register litters form UKC reg parents now.

What I was trying to say was that the author is ignoring the existence of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier as we know it in UK as an established breed, and purporting that they were exported to USA as Pitbulls, and the AKC then split them as American Staffords and Staffordshire bull Terriers, whereas in fact they simply recognised our Staffordshire bull Terriers, as distinct from their American (Pitbull derived) version (like American Cocker and Cocker Spaniels, or in USA Cockers and English Cockers).

Also their theory that all terriers have to be Earth dogs to qualify for that group, rather forgets the Airedale, (whcih I don't belive is spanable), or Kerry Blue.

Oh, I see now. I don't think she's doing that. I think she's simply referring to them a pitbulls as that's really what they once were until the leggy dog it once was, was reduced in height by 2" by the adoption of the KC standard in 1935. Her understanding is that all three have evolved from the old bulldog, the two show variants having diverged further apart.

I've heard the terrier span theory before but to be honest these types of dogs, bar the ones we've discussed, don't really fall into my sphere of knowldge so I can't really comment.

Then it didn't look like an old working bulldog, instead I would assume more of a halfway house between the extremes of the original one and the modern one. This seems to be the area that a lot of them fall into.

The dog I had come to my classes was an Olde time bulldog. the owners got it from somerset.

I've no doubt it was called an olde time bulldog, a breeder can call a dog whatever they like. My point I've been making is that the old working bulldog from centuries ago is the same as a modern pitbull. The links I have posted illustrate this. As you have already mentioned in your previous post the dog at your classes "def did not look like at pitbull", so regardless of what it was called, its reasonable to say that it was not representative of the original working bulldogs.

> KC pug cross>

What's one of those?  The KC don't register cross breeds.

A Bulldog. I was highlighting their origins. In the latter part of the 20th century working bulldogs were crossed with pugs forming the foundation of the modern dog.

When I googled Oldtyme bulldog it came up with a dog that resembled the presant day buldog and in no way resembles the Pitbull type.

OR the dog in the link you gave, THAT is def a Pitbull type.

www.sotb.co.uk
this is the link

Just to clarify. Are you saying that the dogs pictured in the link are accurate modern reconstructions of the original working bulldogs form the 1600 and 1700s?

From looking at the dogs on that site I would agree with the earlier posters. These ones are just crossbreeds and mongrels with a fancy name. I couldn't accept these even being a homogenous breed. That is why I pointed OP to the Leavitt Bulldogs, because at least they are bred to a standard under stringent health and breeding guidelines, so all round a far better prospective for an unexaggerated older style bulldog that isn't of type. Some of the dogs on that site look like KC Bulldogs, others more like the recreations of the early Victorian show dog and another couple just look like DDB crosses. I mentioned the pitbull thing, just as a passing comment as a point of interest.

Depends on what you mean by Old time, most people mean as they were when they were first recognised as a breed by the kennel Club.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olde_English_Bulldogge
The Olde English Bulldogge is a purebred breed of dog. It is a re-creation of the bull-baiting dog that existed in England during the English Regency period of 1811-1820.

so about 200 years later than yoru references.

This gives details of the Bulldog as we know it and it's history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldog

They haven't done a particularly good job given the reference of the time
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crib_and_Rosa

Snoringbear, what I am saying is the dogs pictured in the link are the type of dog that came to my class described to me as an Olde Tyme Bulldog. I did not say it was a pedigree.

> A Bulldog. I was highlighting their origins. In the latter part of the 20th century working bulldogs were crossed with pugs forming the foundation of the modern dog.>

Ah.  So you were talking about a KC registered Bulldog, not a KC registered Pug.  Gotcha.