Hi All

I really need some help.  I have two 15 month old border collies and they have never been happy to walk on the lead together.  Once they are on the leads they get over excited and as well as all the barking and pulling the start viciously fighting.  Individually 95% of the time they will walk to heel but put them together and the problem starts.  Even if I try to put 1 of them on the lead it results in a play session between, and the one on the lead gets very narked by it, it is as if they are saying "ha ha your on a lead and I am free".  They are absolutely fine with each other and all other dogs off the lead.

Can anyone suggest any miracle solutions? 

Thank you :)

The most obvious solution, at least in the interim to break the habit, is to walk them separately.

Hiya Hachi-Marley...

Bit of a bloomin' fiasco to have to resort to walking them seperately....

Have you got a Friend who could walk with You...??? You have One of Your 15 month Olds...and Your Friend have the other one...???

I'm quite certain you're totally right about  "The Look" that the one off lead gives to the other...LOL :)

In fact I wood go so far as to say that they are having FULL BLOWN conversations with each other right under your nose....LOL :)

I wish You much Joy...in getting to Understand Your two Gorgeous Ones....its a lot of fun once you know what they are waffling on about.... :)

It's pure excitement, surely it calms down as the walk progresses?

Having two the same age, you do need to continue to do separate walks as well to help with bonding (with yourself) and training, really you should be able to just say in a stern voice oi behave, stop! if you continue with separate walks as well they will adhere to you better instead of just communicating with one another, being youngsters they will find each other more fun than yourself, you need to take charge that will only happen by doing plenty of one to one or to completely distract them, BC's will be happy to carry something, often they are ball mad, if you can get them to carry a ball, a toy, a dummy, this will help distract them from each other too.

Hi FreedomOfSpirit

It is a fiasco :( 

My neighbour has been assisting me to walk them together, but unfortunately today was a bad day and they did nothing but pull, try to fight and bark high pitched for the full 15 minutes we were out. Her dog just looks on in disbelief, bless him :)

Who needs a gym when you can walk my little darlings for 15 mins to wear you out?!?!? lol :) 

I wish I could work out what they were saying.  I can't wait for the day that I can go for nice peaceful stress free long walks with them :)

Hi Jeangenie

Thanks for the below.  I have been walking them seperately for a while now and just want to be at the stage of being able to walk them together so we can all go for nice long walks.

I will continue to walk them individually though for the time being.

I'm assuming you gave up after 15 minutes not that this is all the walk they got?

They each need at least an hour on lead, and some free running to let off steam.

At this stage I would do the latter first.  A training session and a game with a ball etc in the garden (separately) before you take them out for their walks.

Head collars will help you have more control and save your arms, but they will need to be introduced so they are well tolerated before you attempt to walk the two together.

Having two the same age together is there times the work (sadly no magic cure, jut a lot fo hard work training) of having one and twice the work of having two with a good 2 or 3 year age gap.

> they did nothing but pull, try to fight and bark high pitched for the full 15 minutes we were out.

How often do you take them out? Collies are a very high energy breed and if I only walked mine on lead for 15 minutes, even if I done this a dozen times a day, I suspect they would behave much like your two.

A tired dog is a well behaved dog, is there any way you can pop them in a car and drive to a park where they can be off lead straight away? You could then fling a ball etc for them to get rid of their excess energy then do some training with them.

I had a friend staying last weekend and she commented several times on how calm and laid back my collies were as most she knows continually pace round the house or chase shadows etc. Of course they are only calm because they are very well exercised (mentally and physically) :-)

> They each need at least an hour on lead

I'm not sure I agree with this Brainless, I think they need at least an hour off lead - it's absolutely impossible to tire a collie out on lead no matter how far you walk.

I was thinking she needed this amount fo time to teach them lead manners, as the initial excitement would take a good half hour to wear off, hence my suggestion of 'off lead' first.

Once they are civilised on the lead then they can have the more rewarding/excitement off lead time, when they are calmer, as the idea is to calm them down and as you say more exercise just makes them fitter and in their case more excited.

Hi been there done that but can now walk my two 13 month old siblings together without being pulled left right and centre. I bought my young man a walkezee harness as he was the main puller and found that once I had control of him, in that he couldnt easily pull me about anymore then I could get him to focus and listern which in turn had a knock on affect on his sister. I don't always use the harness now but reinforce their training occasionally if I decide to take one of the others out with them as well. In my case it was just the key to breaking the cycle of over excitement due to being walked together instead of individually. It doesnt have to be a harness a head collar would act similarly.

I would get two prong collars. Take each dog out on them separately at first for a few short walks/training sessions were you do lots of about turns ect to condition the dog to giving to pressure on the prong. I would then take them out together.
You may want the training leads with a handle near the collar on them for this as it will allow you to push them away from each other (stop the fighting) with the collars.
Basically if they start eying each other up for a fight say no/leave and correct the eyer with the collar. You may to correct both together.

Adam

They sound utterly stressed to me - struggling to maintain any self-control, with each other present they get even more wound up and it all gets too much.

You need to work on the separately with lots of training - free running is essential, yes, but in a collie, mental workouts are just as (if not more) important.  You need to lower their overall stress levels.

Ball games can help - but it depends on the dog.  Are either of them obsessive about fetching/chasing balls and toys?  If they are, I would NOT use balls and toys to entertain them.  It can wind them up even more than before, and in a lot of dogs can actually keep them in a permanent state of arousal if done often enough.  I have a dog like that - any hint of a toy and she goes out of her mind, she cannot concentrate and just gets unbelievably stressed.  As a result, my focus with her has to be on interesting walks - woodland, places like that where there are lots of sniffs and tracks to interest her - and training, be it tricks, competitive obedience, agility, whatever.  But toys are a HUGE no-no for her, and I'm only just coming to realise how much of a massively negative impact they have on her!

I had to stop doing a lot of ball throwing for River a couple of years back - she's nowhere near as intense as Ray, but again, it winds her up and she ends up stressed out generally and a lot more reactive.  With her, it tends to come out as car-chasing - if she gets more than one or two ball-throwing sessions a week, she starts chasing cars.  Cut it back, she stops.

>try to fight and bark high pitched for the full 15 minutes we were out.

I'm assuming this isn't the only exercise they get? Otherwise it sounds as if this is your problem - at their age your dogs need much more exercise than they're getting - at least an hour each day, and more than one walk.

Lead-training such active dogs might be best done by allowing them 20 minutes or so free running to burn off some of the excitement before you can expect them to settle down to more 'sensible' walking and won't be so wound up.

Once they are on the leads they get over excited and as well as all the barking and pulling the start viciously fighting.

Are they the same sex? If so I'd never walk them together as this is how fights start, over excitement is a trigger, and same sex, same age is a recipe for disaster when it comes to potential fights, so everything has to be kept calm so problems don't appear. I have 9 year old litter mates (opposite sexes) and unless they can run free on a field and are safe, I still would never walk them together as they get far too worked up, don't pay attention to anything. The dog once (aged about 6) sliced off all his pads on his feet, it was awful to see, because they were let off lead on our quite country lane and they decided to have a chase, it was on tarmac and when the dog stopped suddenly he skidded and it was almost like cutting his pads off with a cheese string -all clean off. He was bleeding and unable to walk for days. Since then they only ever get to run together on grass. Separately the competing never occurs of course so they can then be off lead anywhere and pay attention to you.

Tagging onto end of thread here. Good advice given all bar one ...

Am inclined to think: OMG i've heard it all now, a prong collar for a collie. Ill informed and complete lack of understanding :-(

oops missed that one as the poster is on my Ignore list.  I suggest OP does likewise.

I agree with the poster I had a young collie with a cocker and they were awful. So OH and I walked tem seperate for a long time (over a year) now no problems and both will stay "close" when called but together its more fun "talking to each other".

Never ever use a prong on a collie, they would never talk to you again. We get the cold shoulder if we shout at Jake!!
What a thought if you cant control without one you should not have the dog in the first place! IMHO

Yet again it's a quick fix solution, treating the symptoms but not the cause.

I always found that a dogmatic head collar is best for consistant pullers. It has the added advantage of turning the dogs head to look at you and breaking the cycle of only taking notice of one another. I can understand what a pain it is taking them out one at a time but some individual training is needed then maybe after they have had a little time one to one you can take them together afterwards. Maybe 1/2 hour each alone then try 1/2hr on lead with a nice free run at the end for 1/2 hour. Or turn it around and do 1/2 free running then 1/2 hr on leads once the initial madness has been calmed a bit. My girls used to be a bit excitable when they knew we were off for a walk. They bouced around and rushed to the car (They go in the car every day) I started having a pocket full of treats and unless they walked "Close" to the car I kept stopping...if they walked close they got a treat, and ultimatly what they wanted, a free run in the country park If they really were not listening then out came the leads and we had a boring road walk for 10 mins to calm them down. The dogmatic helped no end when after I had broke my leg I found myself very unstable for a while and Merlot used to pull but after some time using the dogmatic she now never pulls and the dogmatic is gathering dust!
Aileen

PS edited to say my car is parked in my secure yard...they were not rushing about on the road ;-D

I can't imaging what it is like to have 2 over-excited collies to walk with and I can't help you with that - however I will say that you can walk and walk your collie and it is difficult to tire them out - we take ours down to the beach with a ball and she must run miles down there.  However half an hour one to one agility training and she is thouroughly tired out.  She gives her all when being trained and it is the best thing for her.  I don't walk her for hours but try to do training several times a week - club, class and one to one.  At home she needs to have a play session too - hide and seek, tuggy, trick training - mental excercise is so important to collies unless you are lucky to have one of the laid back ones - and I don't.  When mine goes on the lead she is reactive with some other dogs - the ones that worry her and she will bark and lunge.  It is a defensive action - she can't run away so she is ready to fight.  Thankfully it isn't every dog we meet.

Thank you for all the suggestions.  Just to clarify and so that everyone doesn't think I am cruel, the 15 minute walk is just what me & my neighbour have tried together with her dog (as he is old and can't walk far) so that all 3 could (kind of) walk together, as my two have developed a good bond with him and he is very obedient.  It is NOT the only exercise they get.  I usually revert to putting them in the car and talking them to the local woods or greens for them to run around.  We have also been taking them out individually but I really didn't want that to be the long term solution.

On most peoples advice though I will continue for the time being to take them out individually and getting them from the 95% to 100% walking to heel :)

Fingers crossed they grow out of it when they get older.  But if anybody can think of any other suggestions, they would be gratefully be received.  I am open to all help :)

Thanks again :)

To be honest this is one of the many reasons it is a good idea to have a good age gap between dogs (2 or 3 years) and not to have two young ones together.  You may find it needs to be individual lead walking until they rae 3 to 4 years old.

Two of mine are only 19 months apart in age, and I found that was not enough and after many years of up to 5 dogs walked together on lead without any great effort or bother I resorted to using head-collars on these two who competed on lead walks (once the youngest reached 7 months). 

When I realised just how great having the 'Power Steering' was, I got two more for two of the others, just leaving the oldest without one ;)

Thanks Brainless.  I did realise a while ago that getting both of these at the same time was not a good idea.  I will proberly be moaned at for saying it but I didn't realise that having the two together would be such a problem or hard work and to be honest my personal situation has changed so I am having to do this completly on my own (except a little help from my neighbour).  I know that every body has their own issues and I am not expecting sympathy but I also do not want to give up on my dogs, so hence the reason I am on here seeking help :)  I must admit though I have definately learnt from my mistakes and would never get 2 at the same time ever again.  But they are my little darlings and other that the lead I would not change them for the world :)

Oh and I forgot to mention I am in the process of ordering the head collars and fingers crossed they work for them :)

Make sure you introduce the headcollars correctly - or you could end up with dogs that hate them or are afraid of them, shutting off that option to you.

Brilliant video here, although the whole process is sped up, it's a great demo of how to do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wakterNyUg&playnext=1&list=PL2363A4A0DA631A53

This might just make the walks more manageable and less stressful for you.  When your enjoying walking them again then you can concentrate on the training aspects better, good luck.

Oh mentioning the two together issue wasn't to make you feel bad, but for the benefit of people who may read this thread who may be considering getting two puppies, so they realise it is not such a great idea.

Thanks Nikita.  That was very useful :)  If only the real part was just 5 mins lol :)

I hope it does :)  Fingers crossed.

I am not sure if anyone actually believes the intensity these 2 go at it.  I was talking to a dog trainer yesterday and he said that I just have to pull which ever one it is back into check, but that is much easier said than done as they are just way to focused on the excitement to do that and its not just one of them it is both of them :( 

No problems.  I didn't take it personally lol :) And yes I am right with you on getting 2 puppies at the same time is NOT a great idea and I just wish someone would have told me that when I got these :(

It would be worth working with them both on lead in your garden AFTER they've had their separate walks.  Their own patch will be a less reactive or stressful environment for you to practice and chairs, table and plant pots all make useful markers for exercises

In general how are their manners around collars and leads and what is their overall training like?  Things like sit, stay, wait, stop etc are all important commands but you need to be sure each dog is rock solid on their own before expecting them to perform with distractions, like each other!

Have a look at 'Feeling Outnumbered? - How to Manage and Enjoy Your Multi-dog Household' by Karen London & Patricia McConnell.  They make a lot of sense and although it's quite a small book it'll give you some sound ideas to try :)

... I speak as one who added a 3rd dog last year and I'm currently attempting to manage the pre walk madness that has developed!