Hi there

I keep hearing people mention a "stud book number" what is this? How do you achieve this? And what does it get you?!
I've been looking online but can't find what it is!

Thanks

This may help

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2852

I found the best explanation in The New Exhibitors Guide to Dog Showing and the Showring by Peggy Grayson.

"Each year The Kennel Club publishes a Stud Book in which are recorded the names and detail of dogs and bitches who have won or been placed in designated classes at championship shows during the previous year.  These are then given a Stud Book number.  Dogs and bitches to whom a Stud Book number has already been allocated for wins in previous years but who have won in the preceding year are also noted, although their details are not again given in full.  Stud book numbers have always been a measure of the worth of a dog, as it is assumed that only good dogs get into the Stud Book.  The first Stud Book was published in 1874.  From 1998 dogs winning Junior Warrants will have Stud Book numbers allocated to them.

You do not have to apply to have your dog registered in the Stud Book; this is done automatically by the Kennel Club"

There is more info on the KC website here.  A stud book number also qualifies a dog for Crufts, for life.  I looked all this up quite recently - hope it helps :)

Thanks for that....

So what that link says is that you only have to come 1,2,3 in a open class (I presume at a champ show) or 1st in limit? Surely you would have to do more than that to get a stud book number which qualifies for crufts for life?
I think I'm missing something lol.

I don't think I will ever learn everything to do with showing it's all very confusing!

It can be quite an achievement to gain those placings at a champ show!

> So what that link says is that you only have to come 1,2,3 in a open class (I presume at a champ show) or 1st in limit?

Or  a CC, RCC or JW.  In a breed like pugs with fairly big entries this can be a lot harder than it seems on paper. (or even in less numerous breedds come to that)

Is your breed Band D?  I don't think you're missing anything, other than that it would need to be a Champ Show where CC's are on offer.  I'd guess your breed has pretty high entry numbers, with quality dogs...

My breed is Band A but we have CC's for the first time this year so I'm double-checking everything!

Here's the Reg's regarding Stud Book entries which gives a bit more info

I think it sounds easier than it is :-)
In my breed the Limit class is notoriously the biggest class especially in the bitches, and open usually has all the ones who have "won out of limit" (you are only allowed to win 7 limit classes before you move up) and the Champions so already have their stud book no!!
Paula xxxx

Ok, so my dog came 1st at a champ show at the weekend but In PG which means nothing really? Well In terms of stud book numbers etc?

I think I'm understanding now.

Congratulations on your win :-)
It means you can only win 4 more before you aren't allowed in that class any more :-) but doesn't gain you your stud book number, it also qualifies for Crufts 2012.
Paula xxx

Well done on your win that's you qualified for Crufts 2012. You do not get a stud book number for this so keep trying good luck.

> I think I'm missing something lol

In some breeds it is quite a feat to win a Limit class. In Cavaliers there is up to 28 in LBitch and within that group you can often have several CC and RCC winners. At the LKA I counted dogs with 12CCs and as many RCCs winners in my class excluding my own.

Its often where the future champions get stacked! :-)

Its the old 'getting the SBN at open shows' trick I cant stand. Entering two of their own dogs in each class so as to win several very small classes of 3 to rack up the points, often in collusion with their friends. Then only the required number of points from an 'easy' championship show and voila...a cheap JW and therefore SBN.......Not worth the paper its written on IMO.

The Junior Warrant in my numerically small breed is the hardest thing to win. 

We rarely get them at all soem years, hardly ever more than oen in a year.

My youngest champion girl got her title before she got her JW, her mother didn't get a single point (despite lots of BPIB wins at champ shows) until she was winning Post Grad classes and only just got it through multiple class wins in higher classes, she already had her Stud book number for a RCC by then.

My oldest champion girl won more than enough classes but not enough at Open shows when you had to win 10 points with 3 in a class.  Yet she has won 10CC's, 2 champ show group places, stakes wins etc.

Cavaliers are scheduled at almost every open show so the JW scam is thriving at some venues.

The Junior Warrant in my numerically small breed is the hardest thing to win.

Ditto. Since gaining championship status in 2006 there has not even been ANY JW winners in my breed. I doubt there ever will be one. There were 2 or 3 way back when all 4 BSD varieties were counted as a single breed and competed in the same ring, these days you'd never get either the classes or the entries. Even if you kept 3 pups and showed them all together, you'd never get enough wins from the same one.

Its the old 'getting the SBN at open shows' trick I cant stand. Entering two of their own dogs in each class so as to win several very small classes of 3 to rack up the points, often in collusion with their friends. Then only the required number of points from an 'easy' championship show and voila...a cheap JW and therefore SBN.......Not worth the paper its written on IMO.

At least the same accusation cannot be made when SBN are gained via other means ie Working Trials, Obedience etc.

Seems that there will be the same problem with HWVs.

>Its the old 'getting the SBN at open shows' trick I cant stand

Tooolz, apologies if I'm being a bit dim but what is SBN?

Oh scratch that - is it Stud Book Number?  :)

> Tooolz, apologies if I'm being a bit dim but what is SBN?

Take a look at the title of the thread :)

>Its the old 'getting the SBN at open shows' trick I cant stand. Entering two of their own dogs in each class so as to win several very small classes of 3 to rack up the points, often in collusion with their friends. Then only the required number of points from an 'easy' championship show and voila...a cheap JW and therefore SBN.......Not worth the paper its written on IMO.

Sometimes J.W.'s are not worth the paper they are written on. A particular big breeder I know turns up at all the local open shows and has entered 3 of their dogs in all their breed classes. The one that needs the J.W. is handled by them and they instruct the other two dogs handlers to handle 'badly'. Very often the spare 2 already have their J.W.'s. It is a complete farce imho. The reason they turn up with 3 is because other exhibitors started standing down from the classes to stop them getting the points so now they make sure.

> Sometimes J.W.'s are not worth the paper they are written on. A particular big breeder I know turns up at all the local open shows and has entered 3 of their dogs in all their breed classes. The one that needs the J.W. is handled by them and they instruct the other two dogs handlers to handle 'badly'. Very often the spare 2 already have their J.W.'s. It is a complete farce imho. The reason they turn up with 3 is because other exhibitors started standing down from the classes to stop them getting the points so now they make sure.

Does that not say more about bad sportsmanship from other exhibitors rather than lack of value in the JW system?  Surely if the other dogs have already attained the award (and remember all of them need Ch show points too) then the dog is winning in company with dogs of reasonable quality so even if they own all 3 in a class the points are valid?  Perhaps if the other exhibitors had not taken a stance on not going in the class the dog could have won or lost on it's own merit.

> The reason they turn up with 3 is because other exhibitors started standing down from the classes to stop them getting the points

I agree with Gwen's comments.  Can you explain why the other exhibitors were acting in this way? 
If it is true, you cannot condone how the exhibitor has responded but you can certainly understand it and have their competitors behaved any better?

All this is new to me. Im very novice in my showing experiance and learning all the time.
I cant get my head around JWs

On Sunday, we took BPIB (6 entries) and BPIG at an open show - someone told me, Oh you now have a JW point (is that right?) Not that it matters really as my boy is almost 12 months and I dont see us getting 24 points in 6 months to be honest. lol

Its all very interesting though. More to it than you think

> On Sunday, we took BPIB (6 entries) and BPIG at an open show - someone told me, Oh you now have a JW point (is that right?) Not that it matters really as my boy is almost 12 months and I dont see us getting 24 points in 6 months to be honest. lol

Did you win the class? If so yes - you only need 3 dogs, including yourself :) It's class wins that count (as long as the required number of dogs are present - doesn't matter how many are entered, only how many turn up). Group placings don't count towards JW points, neither did BPIB until this year - but the rules for that are very specific and it can only count in very few circumstances (only at an open show, if no JW points have been gained by winning a class(es), and if the dog awarded Best Opposite Sex Puppy has gained one or more points)

And you never know! My boy was born at a very similar time of year to yours (he's just turned two) and he had 1 point by 11 months...then a week before his first birthday he got another 3. No chance, I thought - and then at 14 months old he took off! He amassed 20 points in less than two months - in the end he got his JW at just over 16 months old, so we even had breathing room! Though he was causing me some stress at that point - you need at least 3 points from champ shows (so 1 win) and at least 3 points from open shows (so 3 wins) - he only had 2 points from open shows! As a puppy he was either winning classes of 2, winning large AV classes (don't count) or coming 2nd in classes of 3+, and then over the summer we did very few open shows. If you've got a Ch show winning dog the points soon mount up :)

With our breed the difficulty is more often getting the Open show 3 class wins, as there is never enough Young stock, and in higher classes the judges inevitably give BOB to the adult and BPIB to the youngster which doesn't count (or does it now?)

Yes we won puppy which was of 6 entered but 4 on the day. So we took the point. :)
We have a ch show, a week before he turns 1, which we're entered into puppy and junior. Figured more the merrier! lol
Anyways, its our first ch show and 3rd EVER show, so I doubt we will do much but I am glad of the experience TBH

Fingers crossed :)

Thanks for ur advice Silver :)

I think if a dog can win all it's points at a champ show then it is rediculous to have to get the 3 open points. There have been dogs in my breed that easily have the 25 and more points, at champs but they have to go to open to get the 3!!!

Surely everything that helps Open shows get entries these days is a good thing.

> Surely everything that helps Open shows get entries these days is a good thing.

That is making people go where they don't want to though.  I mostly don't want to pay for novice judges, often with no interest or knowledge of my breed to pass judgement on my dogs, and have to be in a packed hall with tiny rings on wooden sports hall flooring inadequately matted, on which my dogs cannot move out freely..

As the major cost of showing is the fuel to get to them I prefer to keep my pennies for the shows where the judges are likely to know what they are looking at and where I will find a meaningful level of competition.

Frankly unless you attend a local ringcraft class and make a lot fo friends there then there is nothing more boring than attending some of the local Open shows, that often have just one class you can enter.  I can still enjoy the very occasional Open show I do attend because I still have people I know from ringcraft in the past, so can go and see how they are doing catch up etc.

I think the death of Open shows is intrinsically linked to lack of local Ringcraft classes (two I used to go to, one has moved further away when hall knocked down, the other closed due to hall too expensive for the takings/attendance on training nights) where exhibitors get to know each other and then can support each other, and socialise at the Open shows in their area.  I say this after attending a couple fo shows out fo my past catchment area where I knew no-one, and ti was so boring, especially for my husband.  At least at championship shows your catching up with all your friends.

>I agree with Gwen's comments.  Can you explain why the other exhibitors were acting in this way?  If it is true, you cannot condone how the exhibitor has responded but you can certainly understand it and have their competitors behaved any better?

I have no idea and it's not for me to say why they did it as I wasn't there to see it. In a way I can see why this person started making sure there were 3 in the class but to get the other handlers to handle badly????? Is that sportsmanship? It is manipulating the outcome imho.

> but to get the other handlers to handle badly????? Is that sportsmanship? It is manipulating the outcome imho.

A good judge should be able to look past poor handling.  If you do enter more than one dog at a show it quite often works out that the one you would have prefered to do well doesn't.

I prefer to take more than one to a show if there are classes I can enter.  Sometimes there is no option bit to enter two in one class.

At Midland Counties I entered my champion youngster and her Mum (also a champion) I asked a friend to handle Mum (she's easier to handle) and youngster was 4th in Open with her Mum winning the class and the RCC.

At a forthcoming championship show I want to support the judge but my three showable dogs from post motherhood young bitch (very likely to coem in season) to 11 1/2 year old grandmother can all only go in Open, so how do I support?  If I enter two I need to find a  handler.

>I think if a dog can win all it's points at a champ show then it is rediculous to have to get the 3 open points.

A champ show where CC's aren't on offer counts as an open show. 

> I think if a dog can win all it's points at a champ show then it is rediculous to have to get the 3 open points.
> A champ show where CC's aren't on offer counts as an open show. 

Yes, I know but I was referring to a champ show with tickets

That is making people go where they don't want to though.  I mostly don't want to pay for novice judges, often with no interest or knowledge of my breed to pass judgement on my dogs, and have to be in a packed hall with tiny rings on wooden sports hall flooring inadequately matted, on which my dogs cannot move out freely..

As the major cost of showing is the fuel to get to them I prefer to keep my pennies for the shows where the judges are likely to know what they are looking at and where I will find a meaningful level of competition.

Gosh I must be really lucky then!! 40 mins from Newark showground, no end of open shows on offer, fair amount of space, no slippery floors (no matting either), and quite often breed specialists as judges. Unless we stay for the group also get back home for about 1 pm, and at least twice a year can get eye testing done on same day. Great day out all told, always other breeders there we know, and fuel costs minimal, entry costs a tenner for a couple of dogs and a catalogue. Hence I try to go to every show there that offers Malinois breed classes, and sometimes only take Papillons so then there are even more shows on offer. Usually way cheaper overall than the champ shows (especially all the pointless ones without tickets on offer -and THAT is where many judges don't know the breed), closer to home and it's fairly rare to get a judge that isn't in the breed. Worst part about Newark being the toilets and the cold in the winter!

>A good judge should be able to look past poor handling.  If you do enter more than one dog at a show it quite often works out that the one you would have prefered to do well doesn't.

Very often a judge cannot see past the end of the lead, but agree that a good judge should be able to see past poor handling but if handled badly the dog can be made to look bad enough to pass it over in favour of the one handled by the face handling well.

>At a forthcoming championship show I want to support the judge but my three showable dogs from post motherhood young bitch (very likely to coem in season) to 11 1/2 year old grandmother can all only go in Open, so how do I support?  If I enter two I need to find a  handler.

I'm sure though that you don't ask your additional handler to handle badly though do you? ;-)

> Is that sportsmanship? It is manipulating the outcome imho.

No, it's not but my point was is it any worse than people holding their dogs back in order to deny a good dog it's points?

'getting the SBN at open shows' trick

If you just heard the sound of a giant penny dropping it was me...so THAT'S what was going on! I must be a much bigger numpty than I thought. I've looked at a couple of these recently while in the ring with them only and thought how the blinking eck did they get their JW.

>No, it's not but my point was is it any worse than people holding their dogs back in order to deny a good dog it's points?

I don't consider holding dogs back sportsmanlike, no. I don't consider manipulating or manufacturing a J.W. sportsmanlike either or using ones high profile to get away with these things. I've been showing long enough to know that there are a vast amount of people who want to win, get titles at any cost and they will do it however they can. They are not sportsmanlike but I, like you, do it the right way, am polite and sportsmanlike and at least I can sleep at night with a clear conscience, and any titles my dogs have won have been won fair and square and on the dogs merit alone and I'd like to think shown by a decent handler. :-)

We used to get a lot of shows at the Bath and West, but many fo the local societies find it has got too expensive, Hutton Moor leisure centre or the Equestrian centre in Portishead, toss up between the slippery floor or the dirt floor.

So Malvern is really the next closest venue, a bit too far for most Open shows.

Now I would far rather go to support the classes at champ shows without CC's, where we can get an entry from 15 - 25 (at the moment we are down to twenties to 40 at CC shows, except Crufts, National Breed Club and Hound Association that draw higher entries of 60 plus). 

To be honest though I can't really afford these days to do much more than a show a month so can't even manage all the champ shows in my catchment area (as far North as Stafford, East as Richmond and West as Welsh showground).

I think there are too many shows in the current economic climate for the available exhibitors.