Ive inquired with a breeder about a puppy later on this year, parents health tested and dad a successful show dog. Mum isnt shown but from winning lines, nice pedigree and she looks a quality bitch. She wants a non-refundable deposit before ive even met mum and the litter. Ive said im not happy to do this before i meet mother and get my hands on the pups as it would be a potential show pup. I would like to give a thorough look over and take my time over my choice, plus with having a child check the dams temperament is A1 (wouldnt buy from a bad tempered bitch but you see what i mean). I didnt mention that if i gave her a deposit she would have to sell me one by law (even if she didnt like me) as i didnt want to appear stuck up. for the same reason i didnt say would i lose my deposit if i didnt think the pups i had a choice from were show worthy?

But also what if i dont like her when we meet in person how the pups are raised etc etc and i dont want to line her pockets do i lose my deposit? Anyway i havent got a reply, which im sad about as it has the potential to be a cracking litter, the dad and his own litter brothers are doing extremely well. Had a bad experience with the DDB club so ive been reluctant to join any FBD Clubs, looks like i may have to, but as learnt previously breed clubs have thorns too.

Running a zoo is she?

Just when you think dog breeders cant get any worse.

Tell me Louise, since the explosion in popularity of the DDB, are there many left in the breed who arent money grabbers?

Hi Louise,

I personally, would not touch this breeder with a barge pole! How on earth can anyone say that they will definitely have a Show quality puppy in a forthcoming litter? If only it were that simple. I have had plenty of litters over the years, without any, what l would consider to be Ch. Sh. quality pups in. I think that it's ludicrous to expect someone to pay a non-refundable deposit before the litter is even conceived! Also, as you have very rightly said, you need to know what the temperaments of the parents are like too. My advice is - steer well clear of this one Louise.

A litter of real quality will sell irrespective of deposits taken.It might be worth discussing your concerns about this issue with the breeder.

> I didnt mention that if i gave her a deposit she would have to sell me one by law (even if she didnt like me)

I don't think you will find that is true unless they don't make the terms clear.  Of course the seller can't have their cake and eat it, if they break the contract then the deposit has to be refunded, it is only non refundable if the buyer pulls out.

http://www.legalwebreview.com/receipts/receipt-non-refundable-deposit-security-sale/
"Once you agree to the Non-Refundable Deposit, you are bound by it, even if you change your mind afterward, regarding the use of the service.

Buyer pays Deposit and balance amount of the service product, then only he would be liable to use the offered product.

If the balance amount for the service is not paid, buyer forfeits the deposit and seller retains the deposit as damages.

If the seller is unable to supply the agreed product or breach the contract, then buyer is liable for the full refund according to the law."

I always take a deposit from people I am happy with to have a puppy once a litter is born and people definitely want a puppy, as I may have to put off other potential good owners, so we need to know where we stand before I pass people on to other breeders.

With a numerically small breed both the supply and demand for pups is limited, and it may take several weeks for a suitable new enquiry to come along (we know it is preferable for puppies to go to homes at a certain age), and from the buyers point of view they may miss out on another available puppy if you keep them dangling.

I agree though no deposit before a litter are even born, for a start there may not be a puppy of the sex required.  All my puppies are sold first and foremost as companions with any wish to show being secondary. 

If the person interested in the litter is already in the breed/show world then that is slightly different as they need to be sure there are pups of show potential, but I would only accept one or two such on my waiting list anyway so if there was nothing obviously of that quality it only leaves one or two pet homes to find after they are 6 weeks.

Ooh i could tell you some stories, but im trying my best not to be a gossip queen!

tooolz- One thing i will say is i think many are in the breed for the love of something.... and its definitely not the Dogue de Bordeaux.

Not sure if its down to her inexperience asking for a non-refundable deposit before they have been viewed. Guess ill just have to keep searching, you only learn through experience.

I dont mind putting down a deposit to cement my interest in the litter once they have arrived but dont like the fact its non-refundable if i pull out for any reason, not that im a time waster i just want to make a wise purchase and not give money to condone what they are doing if i dont like how things are done once i get down there and see mum with pups. With my last pup i left a deposit once wed decided we wanted one from the litter when we viewed at 5 weeks and then we made final decision at collection. I was 100% happy with breeder and a happy customer.

I think the amount of a the deposit makes a difference too. 

I have only ever asked for £50, as that is no more than in most cases the cost of fuel to visit and to pick up a puppy, enough to put off total time-wasters, but not enough to make Someone take a puppy they really don't want. 

Also likely to stop people booking with several breeders, and then the breeders finding out later they don't really have a booking after all. Also prevents bad feeling between breeders (which is important) where someone feels that another breeder has poached an enquiry they thought was theirs.

I had this in my first litter, the other breeder contacted the buyer to find out when they were picking up pup, only to find they had bought from me (still not sure I have been forgiven) as well as time-wasters and ended up with pups to 14 weeks when I had passed newer potential homes to other breeders.

If it was only £50 id be happy but i think its going to be in the hundreds mark considering the final price of the pup.

There is somebody in my breed (not showing) asking for £200 deposit before mating, not refundabla but can be transferred to next litter if no pups born, not enough pups or wrong sex!!! Utter greed.

Have you asked the amount of the deposit. 

Surely the deposit should only be about putting off time-wasters, and recompense the breeder for needless additional expense in reserving a puppy someone then cancels on?.

Maybe that is why none of my puppy buyers have ever quibbled, as they see the amount and reasoning for my deposits as reasonable (it's less than 10% of purchase price).

I'd agree, as the buyer by making the booking will have taken parentage and timing into account.

It's a long time to wait 6 - 12 months for another litter which still may nto have the required puppy.

> Not sure if its down to her inexperience asking for a non-refundable deposit before they have been viewed. Guess ill just have to keep searching, you only learn through experience.

I like to give people the benefit of doubt :)
If she is not experienced maybe this is what she had to do when purchasing her dogs so she is just doing what she thinks is the norm or somebody has told her this is what people do? Maybe in the current climate she is very worried the pups will not sell or she has been burned before?
If she is not an experienced breeder maybe she thinks there will of course be a show quality puppy there :)...

I would discuss the things you mention here with her to get better feeling why she is asking for non refundable deposit,maybe she will see what you are talking about and agree the deposit in this case might not be the best idea(or at least if she has not got a suitable puppy to offer you, your deposit could be refunded- have it in writing). I would call her to discuss it as written word can be understood incorrectly.
Could you meet the mother now before the puppies are on the way so you know that her temperament is not a "worry" and only issue will be if there is right sex/quality there...

She should realise you are slightly different to most people wishing to purchase "just a pet"...
You want a puppy from the lines she has,from the combination she is doing, not just any puppy so will not be jumping to any odd litter that happens to be available...

Deposit is only small, and she doesnt take it until pups are on the ground so will know the sexes. Not too far for me to travel which is even better! Hopefully i will find a lovely pup and then another 6 months til were in the ring.

That's mad, isn't it--what's to say they'd use the same stud next time round? And why would you want to give them an interest free loan for a year? I certainly wouldn't be interested in any such arrangement.

In some ways it's no different to a stud fee up front, and free return if the bitch misses.

hi Brainless, surely there is a difference--I'm thinking aloud here so forgive any stating of the obvious, and feel free to criticise any unintended non sequitur. My reasoning is that you could reasonably expect to come away with a puppy after putting down your deposit, especially since in most cases (correct me if I am wrong) the deposit would not be paid till the litter was already born. The mating has less certainty about it--and from what I can see many people anticipate the risk by paying the stud fee once the litter has arrived. If you pay a substantial deposit before the litter arrives, you are effectively subsidising the bitch owner's risk and you may not want the replacement on offer if there is a change in the choice of stud. That seems to be loading the dice a little. I'd be very happy to pay a large deposit  for a puppy I'd seen (I paid £500 on seeing the puppy I bought first) and would pay a much smaller deposit if pushed in advance of whelping, but if I was told it would be non-refundable I think I'd look elsewhere.

I know most of us, myself included have viewings of our bitch (if not already known) by people on our waiting lists usually prior to mating, which is when all paperwork and health, knowledge of the Sire etc are all passed on to the potential puppy owners, and they can check out the nature of the future Dam there and then and make sure they are happy with everything right up to the breeder.

As already said it is also when the final decisions are often made from the breeder too, after meeting in person.

I don't see why you can not arrange to view the bitch now, meet and greet and get to know everything you need and if happy you could even leave a deposit then, pre-dated for the month of whelping. Why on earth would the breeder wish to take a deposit from someone they have not even properly vetted?

If you like the bitch and stud, why not ask to view now with an intention of leaving a deposit suites both IMO. :-)

> Had a bad experience with the DDB club so ive been reluctant to join any FBD Clubs

This reads like your prospective new pup is a Frenchie then?  They are super little dogs and have also taken off in popularity. But they do seem a little easier to come by these days, I suppose the supply will keep up with the demand. Bet they're still pretty pricy though.

"In some ways it's no different to a stud fee up front, and free return if the bitch misses. "

Totally agree with above comment from brainless !
Whilst, I think the breeder in question has an absolute cheek to want money up front when the litter isn't even born (!), I have never really "got" the stud fee arrangement which is considered completely acceptable. Fact is, if your bitch misses to a dog, there is always that feeling that next time, actually you might like to take her to a different dog  - especially if you knew your bitch was taken for mating at optimum time for success.

Far better perhaps would be a nominal handling fee for stud dog owners time and trouble, with actual stud fee payable once puppies born.

I once paid a stud fee for a ridiculously brief slip mating and I knew at the time that I was literally just giving this money away and that no puppies would result. The whole mating process with this particular dog was very tiresome and naturally I was not at all confident we would get success the next time, which presumably would have meant several hundred pounds given to someone for nothing really. Nice money if you can get it !  As it was, we did manage a mating 6 months later and 3 pups resulted - but if I had had the option I would have wanted to try a different dog that second time but could not afford to lose the money given up front - nor would I have wished to - on principal.

have to say i disagree with this comment.

When you research and choose your stud for your girl you make an informed decision at the time, you know exactly what you are paying for and the quality of the dog you chose unlike in the event louise is talking about with an 'expected litter'. The fee is not for puppies the fee is for the service of the stud dog and owner. If a well proven male who is sireing healthy litters mates and ties successfully with your bitch then the service you have paid for has been provided. If puppies do not result the strong likelyhood is that is was down to incorrect timing or something else going wrong within the pregnancy process..again all down to the bitch. You say 'when you know you have taken you bitch at optimum time' you can never really know can you...how many people have blood tested got a good mating and nothing or ignored the blood tests and gone with what the dogs are saying and got puppies...proving blood tests can be wrong too.

To offer another free return is fair as like i say if the reason the bitches misses is due to her problems or incorrect timing thats hardly fair on the stud owner to ask them to provide that service twice and not take a penny...i wouldnt however take a fee unless there was a successful tie, if it was just a slip (not had that yet) i would just wait and see what resulted, all in all i think that is a reasonable way of doing things.

Having recently paid a large stud fee for my girl and she missed i dont feel it was unfair as i chose to mate her to a quality ch male and he tied with my girl....reason for missing...i probably got the timing wrong :(

As for Louise's original question, wouldnt touch them with a barge pole....i wouldnt dream of taking a deposit of any amount until possible owners have met all my dogs and me and i am 100% happy that they are what i want for my pups and that they are happy with me.

I was a bit tongue in cheek, referencing a recent thread on what the norms re stud fees are.

A stud fee in the past was traditionally paid up front for the services of the dog, whether a litter resulted or not.

Most of us would not feel that acceptable as when we mate our bitches it is with the expectation of a litter to result from the dogs services, and it is normal practise (but not obligatory) to offer a free return.

These days in breeds where stud fees are the price of a puppy or sometimes more, often the fee isn't taken/paid until a litter is born.

It does seem that some stud owners want their cake and eat it and expect a fee equal to the price of a puppy and a puppy as well.

> It does seem that some stud owners want their cake and eat it and expect a fee equal to the price of a puppy and a puppy as well.

i did read that recent thread and cant believe stud owners ask this and get it!!!!  Have to say i also dont like to see stud owners taking pick of litter to sell, as stud fees in one of my breeds are well below the price of a puppy (well some anyway!) i feel this is just a way to make more money from the mating as you can sell the puppy for more than double what a stud fee would be...then poor puppy get moved on twice. I would only ever take a puppy if it was for myself.

Interested in any thoughts on that too....i could get shot down in flames for that lol

I wonder how many deposits this breeder is taking? What happens if there isn't enough pups to go around,surely they would have to return the deposits?

Not something I would be willing to pay regardless of how sought after I thought the pups were going to be, years could elapse before there are pups available if the bitch misses a couple of times and the breeder has had the benefit of those deposits all that time.

She isnt taking any deposit until pups are on the ground at 2 weeks old, then i will view at 4

With the greatest respect to you, I wouldn't dream of taking a deposit until I had met the potential new owner in person.  Saying all the right things in an email or on the phone is one thing, but until you meet someone face to face how do you know if they can be the right person for one of your puppies?

I am assuming Loise will visit before then, that is what I would expect if I hadn't already met someone.

It is much better for both breeder and potential owner to preferably meet before there is the distraction of puppies on the ground.

As a breeder I take a 50% deposit at the time of viewing I know this sounds a lot but I think it needs to be sufficiently large enough to make sure that your new owners are serious enough to part with that sort of sum. I tell all new owners that their paying a deposit effectively takes the puppy off the market and the reaminder is payable on collection. If they back out for whatever reason after paying the deposit then I have to find a suitable new purchaser before the deposit is refunded, If I have to reduce the purchase price or incur extra costs e.g vaccinations in order to do this then those costs are deducted from the deposit.
I usually call my waiting list when the pups are two weeks old and arrange viewings from 4 1/2 weeks old...I don't book in more viewings than puppies. Any extras on the waiting list or any new enquiries are efeectively on standby if someone backs out - Touch wood it hasn't happened yet.
One concern I have though is that those people on standby could be brilliant new owners but aren't likely to hang around waiting and will often source another breeder. Do other people take some form of deposit before the pups are old enough to view to deter time wasting and potentially losing other better purchasers? If so how do people manage things - Cheques can be stopped and can bounce but you don't want new owners pitching up on your doorstep with cash before the pups are viewable!!

I would feel that taking a deposit would tie you in to selling a pup to those folk, if when you later meet them you don't find them suitable then it is going to be harder to reject them if a deposit is involved.

The maximum deposit I was asked for on seeing the pups and agreeing I wanted one was £200 which at the time was less than a third of the price of the pup and the remainder to be paid either in cash on the day of pick up or by cheque in time for it to clear the bank before pick up.

With Rhodach here -I would never dream of taking a deposit. You can find out all sorts about people in between a first viewing and the time for the pups to go (and this has happened to me), people can and do lie at times, and I want to be able to back out at any time. Equally though I want my BUYERS to be able to back out at any time as I cannot imagine anything worse than somebody having second thoughts but deciding to take the pup because they have paid a hefty deposit and don't want to lose the money. Both buyer and seller have to be 100 % certain they want to go through with it. My buyers have always respected this and seen my point as it works both ways. But then to me the right home matters far more than getting paid for a pup and I'd rather give a pup away for nothing to what I knew was the right home (i.e. to somebody I already knew and trusted), or keep more than one pup myself, than selling it to somebody I wasn't sure about. And people you trust you have no need to ask deposits from anyway.

I've never been asked for a deposit when buying a puppy and the great majority of my dogs (in my lifetime) have come from very wellknown breeders/judges.

Agree totally. I have never asked for a deposit for a puppy for exactly the same reason as Goldmali, I do not want my puppies going to a home just because some one does not want to lose their deposit. Likewise in my last litter I gave the P.O. L to a very dear friend who has shown him very successfully, .but more importantly he has a super home as I don't keep male dogs.
Equally on the rare occasion when I have bought a puppy I was not asked for a deposit.
Personally I feel that this is a modern trend that we could do without. It is putting buying a puppy on par with buying a consumer product and not a living breathing animal .......!!!
,

> I usually call my waiting list when the pups are two weeks old and arrange viewings from 4 1/2 weeks old

Sorry, but I would not even come to view at 4.5weeks, so much changes between this age and 6weeks.. and I as a breeder I would not even consider looking at your pups with a view to 50% deposit.. How do your owners choose at such a young age, and how have you managed to choose your pup at this stage before everyone else chooses? 

No-one chooses pups from me until they are 6 weeks old.  Yes they can visit, no they never leave a deposit, but they always return after I have chosen my pup to make their own choice, if a pup is for showing then there is a good chance, they get what they are given.. I decide which of my pups are a reasonable show prospect

Taking a 50% deposit, where does that leave the prospective owner, looking for a pup to show, and there may not be one in the litter... I assume you must return the deposit, and if so, what is the point in taking it in the 1st place...

50%?  no wonder no-one backs out.. sorry, but I would rather loose ALL my potential owners than them have a pup just because they were going to loose so much money... :-(

I only take a £50 deposit after pups are born in order of going on my waiting list, to deter time-wasters (it's enough for this but not so much that people will feel they must have a puppy they really don't want, as it's about the cost of visiting and then picking pup up), and it's non refundable unless for any reason I cannot provide them with the puppy.

This means I can pass on anyone remaining on my waiting list to other breeders.

we didn't take deposits but we're in a breed that not many people know about and they'd have to do some serious digging to find our breed & litter as most of joe public just don't even know what they are.

If they want to back out then I'd rather they just back out than take a pup
I trust them enough to give them one of my babies which are worth far more than whatever the 'fee' for the pup is - if i thought i couldn't trust them to pay then I wouldn't trust them enough to be selling them a pup.  Some owners were worried that their pup wouldn't be 'reserved' without a deposit but I trust them and just ask that they trust us in return.

I can completely see how in popular breeds with lots of litters and breeders with long waiting lists there can be issues.  Luckily we haven't been stung yet but maybe our time will come.....

just my thoughts...

> Luckily we haven't been stung yet but maybe our time will come.....
>
>

I had three people let me down on two puppies out of three to be sold in my first litter, which meant I had pups not going to homes until around 14 weeks when new potential owners emerged (I had already sent other suitable people away to other breeders).

Mine is a numerically small breed and it is often no pups available and people waiting or suddenly there are 3 litters of the same sex with pups waiting for homes.

Yeah I'm sure it is definitely a case of once bitten twice shy.  We may well change our opinion in time.  I appreciate you ask for such a small deposit in comparison to the price of the pup and of course only after you have thoroughly vetted the homes.  Which is the only way to do it and as you say its just so that you know people are serious.

It's not in any pups interest to be left at 14 weeks when they should already be meeting their new families so we all just have to do our best to find them the perfect homes at the right time