Hi all , not sure if i should be worried or not.
Cru'Ella , 10 week old newf bitch.Normally quite good ( though naughtyest pup ive ever had! mind,they've all been dogs!!).She is very bitey~but normal of age.However , when my mum and 14 yr old sister come to visit she really plays up! this i expected~so i used the normal methods~grab her muzzle and say "NO" maybe even lean over her...but today she growled at me when i grabbed her muzzle~twice.We sent her to her room ( she has a few "away" minutes alone when naughty)
Should i be worried ??
Zoe x

Her muzzle could be sore, but I would not allow growling at all. Maybe try spraying her with a spray bottle or a shake can when bad.
ttfn :)

i dont think its sore , as i say , it was her first growl~but it really worried me

Well, a lot depends on how you grab her muzzle and if it scares her.

I once knew a very nice man who always grabbed his dog and gave it a tiny little shake for very small misdemeanours; the dog started to snap and became scared of his hand.

If your dog is "playing up", take the time to train her - take her to puppy classes when she is old enough. Reward her for doing the right thing. If she is growling I expect it is because she finds what you are doing threatening. She is saying "Hey, I hate that, stop it!" bu tbecause she cannot speak, she is growling instead.

Personally I would completely stop the muzzle grabbing and keep things calm - maybe use her lead to tie her up, or put her in her crate (if you have one) or calmly put her outside the room. /Don't accept the jumping up, but remember that she has not yet learned what is the right thing to do.

One way to train her to not jump up is to totally ignore her (avoid all eye contact, no attempt to push away, as this is ultimaltey attention, etc). and as soon as 4 paws are on the ground, praise and maybe a treat. If she jumps up agian, totally ignore. This does work done consistently by everyone, including visitors.

You can also invite her to jump up, then when she does, turn away and ignore, but reward and praise when she has 4 feet on the ground.

She needs to know what is acceptable, as well as what is not :)

She is a big breed, so willneed to learn to greet calmly; a good pup class will teach "Sit to Greet" which is a godsend.

Have fun and don't worry too much.

Lindsay

Edited: Whooops sorry Zoe, for some reason I read that Cru'Ella was jumping up, but now upon re-reading i see you did not specifically mention that.

Really the best advice i would give is to grab a copy quick-smart of "The Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey. It is SO good, and has become a bit of a puppy owners bible. It helps hugely with the problems you are experiencing. Your local large pet shop may have a copy, or try Amazon or www.crosskeysbooks.com

a 10 week old growling newfy can be funny, but a 10 stone growling newfie ISN'T! You must reinforce at this early age, that growling at you is not acceptable behaviour. Everyone has their different ways of dealing with this, my personal preference is to QUICKLY flip the pup onto its back (a submissive scary position) and say "NO" very very firmly in its face. pup is allowed to right itself when growling stopped, then carry on as normal. Thats my way, everyone does things differently. The main thing is not to allow this to become an established pattern.

thats my thought Sam~though she only growled after i had flipped her into this possition for barking and snaping at me.We've been so carefull as we KNOW what she will grow into!!!

Zoe,
You may find this article interesting/helpful to read! :)

http://www.critterchat.net/guideto.htm

Doing an alpha roll on a puppy is fine, it's an argument you are more than likely to win. When It's a fully grown dog, you better just hope you're in a position to win ...or face having your face chewed off! :(

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm

very good articles ! it shows that allthough we do not smack or hit~we are still not giving entirely the right impression to our dog.She does feel that visitors are "Hers" as when they come in they go straight to her ! we let her go straight to them~so she when i tole her off for showing off , she must have thought "hey! they are MY visitors...not yours"
Silly things we've adopted in the 2 weeks we've had her that are wrong despite all good intentions can hopefully be adapted to the greater good without too much upset at this early stage.
I thankyou all deeply , i will let you know how it goes and value your advice sooooo much!
Thanks for helping me recognise where we were going wrong before something nasty happened!
Zoe x x x x x

the idea Jackie, is to get the respect needed BEFORE it gets to adulthood, to prevent such a thing happening!

Yeah, I know that, Sam!
But somebody else reading this may also think that it's a way to get respect off their larger dog and try it too! God forbid what may happen if they're not in a position to win!

I can only remember two of my puppies who have NOT growled at me as a baby. Don't get too upset about it, this is about the only way they have of telling us that we are doing something they don't like. So saying I would never tolerate it from a puppy any more than a child. The confrontation in our house usually seems to be about laying on chairs and if it does then they are out of the chair so fast they never even saw happen!

A puppy has no rules or laws. They do what they feel like doing and know of no reason why they should not. It is only after gaining their respect as a better dog than them that they have any reason to obey. I have never liked an Alpha Roll (Different things suit different people) Prefering to take hold of the puppy with a hand on the loose skin on each side of the neck and lifting the front paws off the ground, I read the riot act! Done properly the heel of the hands is along side the muzzle preventing the puppy from retaliating. It finds it's self in a position where it can do nothing about it.

Best wishes, John

As I said before, Don't Panic! it's all natural!

Best wishes, John

The trouble is, IME it is the alpha rolls that cause the growling in the first place - oh dear !!! I hate to disagree :(, and yes, owners with large adult dogs have had their dogs attacking them, one I remember was, bizarrely, in Australia with a Malamute, the owner had been recommended this and did it lots, for silly misdemeanours, and the dog eventually attacked him, dog was pts. Owner had life-long scars :(

Also if done, it must surely be done once, swift, immediate and "deadly" - not continuously over weeks. I suspect this is probably how Sam does it and I suspect she does not need to do it again.

If after addressing any problems using the pack theory laid down such as Owners do this, that and the other first, then any other problems are due to training, NOT dominance or any thing else. (Unless the pup has been badly bred :( ).

Dogs very very rarely do this - it is used only as an ultimate punishment. I feel the problems may be because Zoe has been advised to muzzle grab and now is apparently alpha rolling, also in other posts I have read encourages lots of playfighting, including every member of the family. This is confusing enough for the pup - I agree we all train differently but my view is that, certainly in this situation anyway, these are causing the problems. i feel that Cru'Ella feels she has no way but to "fight back".

Zoe have you got a copy of "The Perfect Puppy" yet? :) as this will address all your worries esp.the biting etc. .

Lindsay

I found the last link hugely interesting Jacqui, I never knew that the alpha roll was in fact an appeasement ritual actually instigated by the subordinate wolf. I have seen this but not realised it was the same thing!!! :)

It says a lot too that the alpha roll is used when in the act of killing. This may explain why a lot of dogsreact so strongly.

Lindsay

I'm glad you enjoyed the link, Lindsay :)

I don't like the alpha roll thing - if the dog rises to the challenge you could be in a lot of trouble! I use the same method as John has described which is a safer confrontation. I have been in this position with a GSD which has attacked and been able to hold him there while a colleague came up behind him and put a slip muzzle over his jaws! Alpha rolling can also cause injury in growing puppies as well as being totally impractical for a giant breed.

What I was SUGGESTING was that it was done whilst the pup very young & trying it on....obviously can't be done with an adult giant breed unless you are a sumo wrestler. Grief....I would have thought that was plainly obvious to anyone!

sam ..I think Lara was actually backing up what you said , not implying that you were advocating doing an alpha roll on an adult giant breed

:)

Hi Zoe,I have a 9 week old Bull Terrier bitch and she does the same when I tell her NO so I think it may be a thing they go through (fingers crossed)
Kim

indeed! touch wood she hasnt growled since.She does tend to try it on , but i think i understand why now.Im not doing anything "dominating" towards her at all , im sure that she has now realised im "house boss" just by tone of voice , and mostly its me that caters to her~food/water/toilet etc.So i dont think i need to prove anything to her.
She trys it on , and i turn my back on her or silently take her in her room for five mins away.Touch wood its going great!!
X ZOE x x x

Zoe, I think we're going through the same problems. My border collie pup keeps doing the same and it's been really worrying me. I think that all puppies may do it at some stage but we're so scared that they'll turn nasty when they get older that we tend to panic a bit. I posted a message on the dominance subject as well and some of the advice there was brill especially from "Oblivious". I'm going to get a copy of the Perfect Puppy this week. Hopefully in a few weeks/months time we'll look back on this and laugh (fingers crossed).

Hi there,

pups growl in play and the alpha roll is much overrated and also dangerous. It's all natural. Dogs have different types of growls and it depends on the situation but I think it is normal. I had lots of pups of all breed and x breeds here, they all growled, save one and he was deaf. I have also found that BC's are very vocal as pups. :)

Taylor