Ronnie Irving has resigned the position of Chairman from June 2011

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3711/23/5/3

OK folks time to get your applications in :-D . Anyone part of the 'old boys' network ;-) ?

Ohhh does this mean with a new chairman/woman we may get a champions class and boost the numbers at champ shows. :)

Fingers crossed we get someone a little more media savvie.

Like Jemima !!!!!!!

Champions class in my mid would be a retrograde step, guess where it would be easy to award the CC and BOB.

If you mean that champions would not challenge for the CC, when winning a CC I want to be the best on the day beating all comers including champions, not the best of the rest.

I'd certainly be for counting a certain number of RCC's toward a title if the CC winner is already a champion.  This would avoid a breed record holder blocking other dogs too much.

Under FCI rules the CACIB is awarded to the RCACIB winner if the winner is already and FCI Int. champion, mind you when I won a RCICB it was a year later I was sent the confirmation of a CACIB, and was very confused as to why.  It doesn't really matter to me as have only shown at FCI shows twice with different dogs.

> we may get a champions class and boost the numbers at champ shows.

How on earth would it boost the numbers? A champions class, unless the winner also competes for the CC. would be a backwards step regarding the quality of future champions. To be proclaimed the best on the day you have to have beaten all the competition, not just the ones that haven't reached the top.

If you mean that champions would not challenge for the CC, when winning a CC I want to be the best on the day beating all comers including champions, not the best of the rest

I have been thinking about this for a while now and when i first started out i would of said yes to a champion class but in hindsight the best wins i've had are those when my naughty boy has shown his socks of and weve beat some heafty competition, its far more satisfying.

Well I have to say that Ronnie Irving has been nothing but a gentleman to me and extremely helpful over the years.  How many chairman's don't mind you e-mailing them and reply every single time within an hour and if has not been able to help have asked the correct departments to?

I think it is horse for courses, I have met him a few times and really liked him BUT we have an ongoing problem with a breeder using dogs with horrendous hip scores and many other health problems that are ignored and despite many people raising the matter nothing has been done, to this KC member.
I do not envy him the task he has had.
I know the Champions class has had very little impact elsewhere but entry numbers here are almost unique and with some breeds being dominated by certain kennels (some rightly some others not so) I think it as least deserves a chance. After all we did "trial" the single CC! 
Jeff.

The day we get a Champions class will be the day I stop showing -what's the point in being the best of the bad lot rather than the best of the best!

In some breeds and at certain times - the issue of dogs winning 40-50-60 CCs will need to be addressed.

Whilst we had two dogs sitting on 30-odd CCs each in my breed in open dog, they were often the only ones in the class...with the result of a lower male entry.

Yes, the best is there to be beaten but when a dog is in the high numbers of CCs it seems to hypnotise some judges who seem unable to buck the trend for fear of looking foolish.

But that is down to judges and not the system.  Maybe some need to grow a backbone before they enter the ring? (Judges, not the dogs :-) )  A dog in its prime may well deserve the numerous awards but as and when they get older, they can begin to lose their edge.  An experienced, confident judge should have the knowledge and courage to see this.

we may get a champions class and boost the numbers at champ shows
It can't boost numbers in numerically small breeds and it would certainly do nothing to improve quality.

The main difficulty is the vastly different situation between numerically strong and weak breeds.
I don't think it's the fault of the system but the fault of the judges (not always, of course, if a dog is the best on the day then s/he should get the CC whether it's their 1st or 51st) but I do agree that there are some judges who seem unable to buck the trend for fear of looking foolish.

> Ronnie Irving has resigned

Hopefully Caroline Kisco will soon follow. Then maybe we can have some decent PR for pedigree dogs from someone who knows what they're doing!

alleluliah.......maybe the " picking" on my breed will also end.

> Ohhh does this mean with a new chairman/woman we may get a champions class and boost the numbers at champ shows. :-)

I do hope not.  Makes for cheap champions.   This is what I strongly object to in cat showing.     I think fuel prices and the fact that the same judges coming around year in, year out has more to do with dwindling numbers.

> I do hope not.  Makes for cheap champions.   This is what I strongly object to in cat showing.     I think fuel prices and the fact that the same judges coming around year in, year out has more to do with dwindling numbers.

Hmmm. That's interesting.
On one hand we have people remarking on dogs that get 40+ CC's, yet the judges are being repeated too often. There'd be a lot more open competition if dogs weren't allowed to be shown under judges that had already awarded them a CC.... Or perhaps a CC within the same 12 months?  After all you can only count 1CC by the same judge towards a championship. Wouldn't that open it all up a bit more without degrading the Champion status?

I've thought about this knowing how the GCCF dealt with it (cat shows being a whole deal more expensive!) - first GCCs then all manner of other upper awards. That helped people get motivated to carry on further once past the Ch status and thereby keep entering the shows.

If the fact that some people can go to enough shows to have a dog with 40CCs to its name, where other people struggle to get to shows, then there should be a limit somehow. It might not cheapen a championship, but it could just give the right amount of encouragement to those who must miss out on a regular basis. In other words, if you can afford to go to 40 shows with a dog good enough and win 40 CCs, it would be nice to allow the less well-off with a dog of equal or not a lot less merit, to go to 10 shows and pick up the relevant 3. Judges are always allowed to withhold, if the dog is not good enough.

Most people will not show a dog again under a judge they already have won a CC with it, the exception being Crufts or a breed club championship show.  It is better to have won 40 CC's under 40 separate judges than 'doubling up'!

Has the introduction of GC & IGC and now the Olympian helped cat showing?   Certainly in the group I show in (British) the entries are dwindling and it's because of fuel costs, entry costs & the same judges names re-appearing in schedules.

Whilst I do think Ronnie Irving had a pretty black and white view of things I do think his was a difficult role played out in difficult times and I'm surprised that he hung on this long in such a thankless role.

Personally I think that problem is that the kc are trying to be 'all things to all men' and in trying to appease our critics they've implemented  some pretty poor 'knee jerk' reactions.  Mike Gadsbys petition shows  just a tiny fraction of the unhappiness in the show world at the moment - yes it's narrow world with a very specific view on things that is perhaps not shared or understood by others outside of our hobby but then so is the world of horse racing , cricket, pigeon fanciers  or indeed any other hobby - does the Jockey Club work against the interest of it's 'customers'  in the same way that the Kc has ? -

It does desperately need to listen to what exhibitors and breeders want and act in their interest ( they do after all fund the whole thing ! ) and it needs to focus on the show world a whole lot more - have a rota system for judges so that the same names don't crop up time and again , let every Championship show have  CC's for every breed scheduled , stop the silly restrictions that are killing the Open shows and allow them to put on more breeds and more shows, move out of Clarges street and use the funds to create a 'dog centre' accesible to many more of us , let 3 or more reserve CC's count towards one CC -these are just a few things off the top of my head and I'm sure many more could be added .

Stop making us feel guilty for owning the 15 'at risk breeds or putting coat spary on our dogs - work FOR us and we'll support you - if not well I'm sure teh FCI is waiting in the wings >>>>

Having said all this I do wish Ronnie a happy retirement - heaven knows he's earned it !!

Have to say that as a person who would love to judge my breed higher up the rules for judging are just to stringent especially for someone like me in a minority breed.  It would take me about 10 years to get the numbers needed to judge at CC level.  I will be judging at a show tomorrow in Madrid and more than likely will judge the total number I need in that one day but sadly the numbers are not allowed to be included.

I imported the breed and think after 19 years know a bit about them but sadly that doesn't count.  So in reality makes new judges wanting to come through very hard.

Whilst I think the thread has digressed a little I think there are some good ideas(with a little tweaking) raised in your post Trevor

I've thought about this knowing how the GCCF dealt with it (cat shows being a whole deal more expensive!) - first GCCs then all manner of other upper awards. That helped people get motivated to carry on further once past the Ch status and thereby keep entering the shows.

But it's got totally silly in cats, where a Champion no longer means anything at all. Having a Champion (or Premier for neuters) is now more like just having an RCC in dogs. Good, but only the first step on an EXTREMELY long journey. I feel it's got totally out of hand, and would hate to see the same in dogs. I mean, first we had Champions (and Premiers), then Grand was added, then UK Grand, then Imperial Grand, now they have added Olympian, and then of course there is the Supreme Grand for the main Supreme show winners. More and more certificates needed -have totally lost count of how many would be needed to take a cat to the top title (not counting Supreme) but we're surely talking a couple of dozen now. All it's done is encourage people to keep showing the same animal over and over, and it has devalued the Champion title. A Champion means nothing. In dogs it still does. And I think it has had the opposite effect. What's the point of starting to show, when the journey is so long? Somebody worked out that to go all the way, if you won at EVERY show, the cost for show entries and travel (sticking to local shows) could be around £2000. Then if you have an entire cat and neuter it, you start all over again......so that eventually you can get a cat with the title "Olympian Imperial UK Grand Champion Olympian Imperial UK Grand Premier"!

> Like Jemima !!!!!!!

When hell freezes over :oD :oD

I see she has already blogged about this but luckily no mention of her appying for the job !

Well as she likened us to a bunch of fiddling pheadophiles can't see her wanting the job, way below the belt in my opinion.

Can we keep this thread on track please.

> just a tiny fraction of the unhappiness in the show world at the moment

I have been attending shows for about 35 years and I don't remember when it was ever not so :)
What is apparent from just these recent debates on CCs and spraying lacquer at dogs heads there is a hugely diverse spectrum of opinion within dog breeding and showing let alone any discrepancy between ourselves and the general public. 
Hats off to Mr Irving for devoting himself to it for so long and jolly good luck to the next punchbag :)

Totally agree with you Marianne and this rule whereby you cannot enter the Open, GCC or Imperial class once you have made your cat up to these will make for very poor entries in various classes and cheap champions.   There's no other Selkirk Rex adult females who are in the Imperial classes and only 2 more who are Grand Champions and now retired for kittens.   So there will be no adult females shown between Open and Olympian!

> I do hope not.  Makes for cheap champions.

We already have them!  How much cheaper can it get when nephew / uncle keep awarding each other tickets regardless of what they have in the ring?  I would like to see a grading system to make judges on the day justify their placings.  Only those graded Ex would qualify for Crufts instead of the current 1st 3 placed as we have a few good ones forward at Crufts but alot of rubbish that should not be there.

absoloutely ...the world is a small place and becoming smaller we need to look at what works in other countries and use some of their best practices over here - I also think the idea of grading is a good one - as things stand at the moment if you are not placed in the first three then you come away from a show with no real idea of what the judge thought -it also would'nt hurt to mark a dogs 'excellent' grading by giving a rosette or card stating this - at Open shows the BOB should qualifiy for Crufts and Open shows  could have baby puppy walks (4-6 months)  where they are allowed to experience the show ring without being graded or placed - at champ show level the  numerically strong breeds  need to have  more sets of CC's per show ( i.e over 100 dogs entered then 2 sets of dog and bitch CC's )

I know this is digressing away from the original post but Ronnie Irving was very much an 'over my dead body' man and reluctant to listen to  ideas for change - this is a great opportunity for a fresh vision and a new impetus for the dog world - perhaps at last affiliating us with the FCI ?

Yvonne

> Only those graded Ex would qualify for Crufts instead of the current 1st 3 placed as we have a few good ones forward at Crufts but alot of rubbish that should not be there.

Your assuming the qualifier is about quality, it never was intended for that it was intended to restrict entry numbers due to venue constraints.

> Yes, the best is there to be beaten but when a dog is in the high numbers of CCs it seems to hypnotise some judges who seem unable to buck the trend for fear of looking foolish.

I know what you mean, it does take a strong willed judge to place a top winning dog down the line. When I judged recently I had a dog in one class which I knew had won a CC barely four weeks previously but when I went to go over him he messed around and I could not go over him properly, on the move he played about, so he had to go down a place and I awarded BOB to another. He is a very nice dog but you have to judge on the day.

As I understood it the idea of the champions class was that the unbeaten dogs challenged for a CC then they had to compete against the champions and all other unbeaten dogs for the Best Dog or Bitch before competing for BOB, therefore they still have to prove themselves worthy of a Best Dog or Best Bitch over a champion dog? I do know of several breeds where there are champion dogs with numerous CC's but can see why people might want to change to a champions class, and why others would not.

I have heard some folk say that when you have a champion dog on numerous CC's people all want to use that dog in their breeding programme and this can lead to a 'bottle neck' genetically, which would be a concern in some breeds. By moving the champions into a 'grand champions class' some think it would give people a wider choice of dog to use in their breeding programme. I can also see that by not having a 'grand champions class' dogs do have to prove themselves against dogs who may well be the holder of numerous CCs and this dog will always give novice exhibitors the chance to see a top quality dog and strive to have one as good as the top dog is.

Maybe the challenge is to look at both systems and IF we went over to a 'grand champion class' system we should make that qualification a little harder to attain, so a dog would for example have to gain 6 CC's then become a champion but to compete in the Grand Champions class he would need to win Best Dog or Best Bitch against all comers including champions in the 'grand champions class' to move up into the grand champions classes on a more permanent basis?

I really don't know the answer as I said I can see both sides of this argument.

I think grand champions would just devalue champions which are hard enough for us mere mortals that don't show every weekend to attain.

If I have a good enough exhibit I expect it to take around 3 - 5 show seasons to attain the title in my breed which is numerically small, so must be even harder with a numerically strong breed.

My 3 champion girls may not have as many CC's/RCC's under their belts as some, but they have a reasonably good hit rate from the shows attended, and have all beaten top winners.

My oldest champion girl is only now going into virtual retirement, but still won two RCC's including breed club champ show last year in her 11th year, 11th season of showing.

> Hats off to Mr Irving for devoting himself to it for so long and jolly good luck to the next punchbag :-)

Agree... he has had to put up with a lot especially if you remember 2008

> Hopefully Caroline Kisco will soon follow. Then maybe we can have some decent PR for pedigree dogs from someone who knows what they're doing!

Caroline works extremely hard for dogs and the KC. The KC has a PR department which has been very under funded because they were putting money into health research, PR costs money and the KC has never had the slick professional PR guys that businesses can afford. Latterly they have had to put more money into PR but like all things it is a learning process. I work for a national construction company when not doing my articles for the canine press, this national company has only just started to grasp the PR nettle and are learning as they go along. If a huge business like that are having to learn I can't see why we would expect people like Ronnie and Caroline should be expected to be instant slick PR whizz kids. The job of Chairman and secretary is not as easy as everyone imagines. I have spent time with the KC and realise just how tough these jobs are.

>> Your assuming the qualifier is about quality, it never was intended for that it was intended to restrict entry numbers due to venue constraints.

Well it is obviously time they made Crufts about quality not quantity, after all it is billed as the World's Greatest Dog show which it is not. 

> As I understood it the idea of the champions class was that the unbeaten dogs challenged for a CC

As per FCI classes true AND only those graded excellent can challenge for the CAC / CACIB.  People who do not show abroad regularly seem to think it is easy to make up a Ch there, far from it.  The experienced breed and all rounders are not shy about awarding vg / s / dq to dogs that here would be just given a place because they are in the ring and the only ones forward.  Maybe that is why some breeds now, even though they may be lower in numbers than the UK are of far higher quality.

If they introduce a Ch class here it would only work with grading otherwise we would still get the rubbish we see now being made up.

I think it's the largest dog show.  Greatest can mean biggest, LOL

> I think it's the largest dog show.  Greatest can mean biggest, LOL

Not any more despite Ronnie I's claims in OD.  WDS 2011 is already past the highest ever Crufts entry, as have a few WDS been in the past.

They record actual dogs entered abroad, not "entries" (same dog several classes) like the UK total entry number which gives an inflated number.

> Not any more despite Ronnie I's claims in OD.  WDS 2011 is already past the highest ever Crufts entry, as have a few WDS been in the past.
>
> They record actual dogs entered abroad, not "entries" (same dog several classes) like the UK total entry number which gives an inflated number.

I think it is only fair to compare like for like ie another single country's annual show.

> They record actual dogs entered abroad, not "entries" (same dog several classes) like the UK total entry number which gives an inflated number.

They record both dogs and entries for UK dog shows, and Crufts has several times had over 20,000 dog entered.

If there wasn't the restriction on entry (qualifier) if certainly would draw an even bigger entry.

> As per FCI classes true AND only those graded excellent can challenge for the CAC / CACIB.

but if judges are happy to award a CC or RCC to a dog that is nto quality then they will also grade it Excellent if grading was used here.

Personally I would like to see grading, it would have advantages in both Numerically large and small breeds.

Though I would not like to see the exhibits not graded excellent unplaced as is the case in FCI rules as I understand it.  the dogs are first graded and then only the excellent placed.  I don't think this gives any encouragement to those with lesser dogs.  If they still placed they would have an idea of how far they have to go.

Of course in FCI countries a dog can be excellent one day and only Very good another so it is still subjective based on a judges interpretation.

Not sure what the answer is but I'm not against a champions class. I have seen many good dogs worthy of a title flounder along the way because they could not get passed the face of the breed. Sure its the judges who are to blame and it take a brave judge to go against the tide;

I don't think we would get cheap champions because I think most breeds have enough quality in existance and good dogs are always being bred. They just need that chance without the breed record holder turning up and going for yet another CC to make it 50 or 60.

Once a dog had its CC it could then challenge the winning champion along with all the other class winners for the BOB and group place and its the group place that the big winners are after anyway.

Not sure any system is perfect but there has to be something fairer than what we have.

> Not sure any system is perfect but there has to be something fairer than what we have.

I think converting certain number of RCC's to CC's if the winner of the CC is already a champion.

Not all multi CC winners have contributed to the gene pool, the top holder in my breed is a bitch with 60+ CC's who has never had pups and as far as I am aware never been pregnant, she is now in the veteran classes and other bitches are getting a chance to win CC's as before she got one every time she was out leaving multi RCC holders around her.

I like the idea that if you were to gain X number of RCC's they could count as a CC, would help in the above situation.

> the dogs are first graded and then only the excellent placed. 

No if there are only say 2 graded Ex then the 3rd and 4th VG they are placed as the judge merits.  Grading at the time gives the judge less to hide behind.  I would love to see some of the so called "breed experts" here have to justify their placings on the spot, they could'nt. 

< Like Jemima !!!!!!!

 

When hell freezes over :oD :oD>

or the rapture takes us all away :) see other thread

> Though I would not like to see the exhibits not graded excellent unplaced as is the case in FCI rules as I understand it.  the dogs are first graded and then only the excellent placed.  I don't think this gives any encouragement to those with lesser dogs.  If they still placed they would have an idea of how far they have to go.

What about written critiques, that I say is what really teaches the owners what they are looking at and faults of their dogs etc...
Saying that of course sometimes you do look at critique and think What? Excellent head, are they blind?
But after few shows and critiques you see a trend and what are the good/bad points pointed out in most critiques.

I definitely say I have learned more from reading critiques of the not so good dogs than just looking at the winners and the critiques they receive...
As of course the critiques of the winning dogs very rarely point out many faults, not that there isn't any but we should be talking about quality animals so many good points are there to list instead of listing the not so good points.

When I started showing I showed "the best dog in the world" that looking back really was not.
Had I just been chucked out with "no reason" like in UK I would have, I might have just given up showing but as I received critiques, I learned why she might have not done so well (it was not all facey judging or a rubbish judge :) )... Instead of just giving up, I bought a better quality dog to show :)!
Sadly you do see many people coming and doing few shows with a youngster and if they get nowhere (and maybe get told it was facey) they just disappear before they learn to see why the dogs that were placed are placed and why their dog was not...
If critiques were given it  might just keep new people in long enough to get them hooked :)!

Grading would also be improvement in my opinion and would not take much time (like critiques) so should not be so hard to implement?
It would also make it easier to read judges :)...

Whilst I do appreciate that a lot of CD members will think that this means that there should be a change around in the dog showing/championship status of the KC, some of us will take the longer view.

It is essential that that next Chairman of the Kennel Club does this.   Immense harm has been done to the profile of pedigree dogs by That Woman - I will not name her - don't want this post to come up when one profiles the person that has done so much damage to the concept of pedigree dogs.

The next Chairman of the Kennel Club does need to be aware of the impetus of the press/public opinion if we are to get across the message that a good dog is a KC-registered pedigree dog.   In the past, the "Old Boys" network has operated everything in respect of pedigree dogs - as it has with horses et al.  But the times they are a-changing, to quote Bob Dylan - and the KC has to accept this - and to realise that it can no longer loftily ignore the ramblings of That Woman - it has to attack - and to attact factually and impersonally.  It needs to give full information as to where things have gone wrong, and where things are correct - and to GET IT RIGHT!

There is no room, in the 21st Century, for a "Gentlemen's Agreement" - we need someone who will fight fire with fire, who is prepared to demolish the attacks of people with hidden agenda - to expose the hidden agenda.   If we are truly, all fighting for the propagation of good dogs, from excellent breeding lines and not just pot-hunting in one form or another - then we need to ensure that the next Chairman of the Kennel Club is a true representative of dog owners and breeders today - not just a representative of dog exhibitors!