Hi All,

Just wondering if anyone has done Schutzhund training with a pet dog? Is it suitable training to do with a pet dog or does it change their temperament somewhat?

I am just thinking of ways I can expand on obedience training and from what I understand GSDs tend to excel at Schutzhund, I just don't want to do too much research before I realise it's not going to be suitable.

I have done a bit............

It is entirely suitable for a pet or working dog provided they have the right temperament. A dog is constantly under test for temperament whilst in training and in competition; dogs who are not suitable generally are not trained by clubs, the last thing they need is to churn out iffy dogs. 

Most pet bred GSDs can get titled and participate in Schutzhund, most of them cannot excel or compete at the top level.

http://gsdleague-workingbranch.com/

This link will give you a list of clubs one of which may be near you, you can go along and see if it is something you want to pursue.

Alternatively, if you do not want to train the protection phase, you could take up Working Trials where PD is an optional extra, I have done a bit of that too.

http://www.workingtrialsmonthly.co.uk/about.html

HTH

Thank you! I will have a look at those links- I didn't know where to start as I wasn't even fully sure what it entailed other than the tracking and some protection work.

A friend of my Mum's has a doberman and her husband does Schutzhund training with her but she can only go so far- not sure if she can be 'titled' because of her breed? I may be wrong but I know they can only do it up to a certain level and the breeder of the dobe has bought a GSD so he can take schutzhund further. Is it something to do when the pup reaches a certain age or can you go from a younger age?

Thanks for your help!

There are one or two Dobermanns with SchH 3 titles in the UK. ANY breed can get Schutzhund qualifications, if it is good enough! We have ABTs, BC, BSD, Labradors etc.

Schutzhund is really like Dressage for horses, it is extremely precise so you really need to start young, puppies can start tracking at 7 weeks, and start on positions, sendaways, recalls and retrieves at that age too for the obedience section........... ;)

I will have to really look into it before getting my pup then (hopefully in September.) I'd always assumed it was something you'd start a little later. Will have to try this along side obedience/socialisation classes.

It can be started later with success, depends on the dog and owner really.  Someone on another forum has not long started it with their GSD (who I think is about 2yrs old now, or near to that) and he's doing well.

One thing I would say is to go along and see how they do it - old fashioned techniques and, sadly, ecollar use is not uncommon in this sport.  More so in the US but I would still want to be sure.

One thing I would say is to go along and see how they do it - old fashioned techniques and, sadly, ecollar use is not uncommon in this sport.  More so in the US but I would still want to be sure.
What a shame :( I just cannot fathom why anyone would do that when really it is something I thought people would do for their dog to enjoy! I have seen a YouTube video of a 7-week old pup being trained. The pup was gripping a heavy-duty training toy with his teeth, and the trainer was picking him up in the air and rubbing him down as well as hitting him with metal poles and also hitting the metal poles together- no idea why?!

Thanks for your insight. I will try and go to a few classes to view them.

Well I think it is slowly on the way out (I hope), just wanted to make you aware.

Far more common in the states - I know of one dobe owner who uses an ecollar to get her dog to release a bite.  Of course, if the woman would put some work into self control with the dog she wouldn't need the ecollar (same dog is a beggar for biting her during agility too, just got no self control).

The positive trainers are on the up - not sure if it was Schutzhund or just working trials but the world champion a few years back (possibly since then too, but not kept up to date with it) was a purely clicker trained malinois :-)

The pup was gripping a heavy-duty training toy with his teeth, and the trainer was picking him up in the air and rubbing him down as well as hitting him with metal poles and also hitting the metal poles together- no idea why?!

Are you sure you saw that right? Usually the sticks are hit on the ground or anything else close to the dog, not ON the dog. It's a distraction, showing they don't let go of the bite despite it.

Actually, it totally depends on the home situation.  For example, if you live alone, then yes, probably  but I have small kids so could not have the dog as part of the family.  Not because she would have been out of control, on the contrary, but because the home commands and work commands are so different and like someone said, commands have to be so presise.  Mine started at 13 weeks, just basic retreival and rag play but after some thought and a couple of classes, we decided against it.  Our dog was a pet first and it was the spot-on obediebce I loved not the bite work.  So we joined obedience instead!
Also, What you described above was also done but not hitting the dogs, they just made the action but never struck any of the dogs at all.  It is all about trying to put the dog off the bite so they can teach them not to let go till commanded.

Are you sure you saw that right? Usually the sticks are hit on the ground or anything else close to the dog, not ON the dog. It's a distraction, showing they don't let go of the bite despite it.
Yes, the dog was having them rubbed up and down him and was hit with them (gently but still being hit) as well as the poles hitting the ground and hitting the poles together :(

Actually, it totally depends on the home situation.  For example, if you live alone, then yes, probably  but I have small kids so could not have the dog as part of the family.  Not because she would have been out of control, on the contrary, but because the home commands and work commands are so different and like someone said, commands have to be so presise.  Mine started at 13 weeks, just basic retreival and rag play but after some thought and a couple of classes, we decided against it.  Our dog was a pet first and it was the spot-on obediebce I loved not the bite work.  So we joined obedience instead!
Also, What you described above was also done but not hitting the dogs, they just made the action but never struck any of the dogs at all.  It is all about trying to put the dog off the bite so they can teach them not to let go till commanded.

I do have a young (2/2 and a half) niece. She is the main reason I was doubting whether Schutzhund would be a good idea. I thought because a GSD, being a working dog, needs so much stimulation that they may enjoy the Schutzhund training. I think I will start off with obedience and if I'm good at it I will look into the Schutzhund training.

I thought because a GSD, being a working dog, needs so much stimulation that they may enjoy the Schutzhund training.

An awful lot of how MUCH you need to do with a dog will depend on whether you are getting show lines or working lines. I have Malinois, mine are all show lines. They CAN work (have bred two that are working as security dogs/sniffer dogs, two are in training to be police dogs etc) but they can cope with not doing as much as a working line dog.

The dog will def have to be evaluated to make sure they are good for this type of sport...

I was going to do this with our puppy when we got him- but hubby talked me out of it- so we are looking more for one that is layed back with out alot of prey drive- more a couch potato and think I will get into flyball- agility- not sure- or just have a jogging partner :-)

The pup was gripping a heavy-duty training toy with his teeth, and the trainer was picking him up in the air and rubbing him down as well as hitting him with metal poles and also hitting the metal poles together- no idea why?!

Are you sure you saw that right? Usually the sticks are hit on the ground or anything else close to the dog, not ON the dog. It's a distraction, showing they don't let go of the bite despite it.

It sounds like you are describing 'padded sticks', they are very light and soft and don't hurt. They are used to apply pressure on the dog to let go of the sleeve.

My Dobermann is from show and working lines, he is doing really well at schutzhund. I started schutzhund when he was about 7mths old, he is still very good with children, other pets, dogs etc., hopefully he'll have his schH 1 this year! He will be 2yrs old in August. With regards to being suitable as a 'pet dog', it all depends on if your dog can 'switch-off'. Every dog is different.

Police dogs are trained in a slightly similar way when it comes to the bite-work, and some dog handlers keep their dogs at home with children etc., again I think it depends on the individual dog.

Schutzhund dogs always bite on a visible sleeve, never on a suit or concealed sleeve like security/personal protection dogs/police dogs, so it really is just a game. My boy runs straight back to the helper when he wins the sleeve to play some more. However, I know of other dogs that are a lot more defensive than mine, and 'the game', is a little bit more serious to them... so it really does depend on lines and individual temperaments.

schutzhund is really like Dressage for horses, it is extremely precise so you really need to start young, puppies can start tracking at 7 weeks, and start on positions, sendaways, recalls and retrieves at that age too for the obedience section.



I disagree with enforcing so much obedience on a puppy at 7weeks of age, tracking and basic obedience are good but I believe a puppy should be a puppy for the first few months. Some schutzhund folk don't do ANY obedience until the dog is 12mths of age, as they don't want to knock the dogs confidence, as it may hinder bite-work. Some people don't do any bite-work for the first 12mths as they believe you should have absolute control over your dog... they're so many different methods so I would definitely recommend visiting many clubs around the UK.

If you are serious about the sport, it would be best to select the most confident outgoing pup of the litter. You can also take a rag/tug and access them all at biting/raggin.

I wouldn't recommend the sport for novice dog owners.

If you clicker train a dog you do not ENFORCE anything, it is all play, that is a good example of some of the old fashioned thinking that is still out there (in all disciplines), and harsh techniques apply to ALL disciplines.

Neither does obedience training impact on the confidence of the dog (unless of course you are ENFORCING it using aversive techniques.

If you want to see if you want to do ANY sport, GO AND WATCH the top people in the field, meet their dogs and watch them train; you will find that a lot of the "rumours" are unfounded and put about by people who have little or no experience of owning, handling or training dogs in that particular sphere! ;)

My Schutzhund 3 GSD is very social, anyone can play with him or stroke him and he was handled in the show ring at Crufts by a COMPLETE stranger! 

It sounds like you are describing 'padded sticks', they are very light and soft and don't hurt. They are used to apply pressure on the dog to let go of the sleeve.

Nope, they were not padded, they were ordinary poles that looked as though they were from a gazebo or football net or some sort of structure. Some of them had rust around the bottom which looked as though they were not specially made for this purpose, rather just used as a cheap replacement.  I actually reported it and now I can no longer find it on YouTube else I'd post it here- maybe it has been removed?

If it sounds distasteful to you, HWTM is a good sport.............

If it sounds distasteful to you, HWTM is a good sport.............
Somehow I can't see me doing that! hahahaha

I have gone along to watch Shutzhund and for me it's too precise.

Personally I prefer working trials for a number of reasons including the fact that you don't have to do the manwork side of things if you don't want to.  Also any breed can reach the top in working trials if the dog (and handler :) ) is good enough.

I enjoy both ;) as a spectator and competitor, I enjoy being successful at both with one dog! ;)

Schutzhund, sometimes abbreviated SchH, started out as a breed survey.  It was intended to keep the German Shepherd, aka Alsatian, "pure" and to ensure that he was bred so that the line could continue to do the work it had been created for.  There are several titles but the main ones are SchH I, II and III.  The III is the highest and the hardest to get.  The sport consists of three phases of working the dog; obedience, tracking and protection.  Virtually any breed can participate but the most popular breeds are the GSD, the Malinois and the Rottweiler. 

Today the sport is big business with breeders vying for titles and championships so that they can sell more dogs.  The quest for this has changed the drives of the GSD breed immensely.  The sport has spread to most industrialized nations. 

There are probably thousands of videos on YouTube and other such sites showing various elements of the sport, the most popular ones are of the protection work. 

What was described by a poster as a puppy being rubbed and struck with metal poles that were also being struck together was to desensitize the puppy to the feel and the noise.  During the protection phase the dogs are struck with sticks.  They used to be made of thin bamboo but nowadays they've been replaced by a nylon stick covered with padding and leather to lessen the chance of injury and the pain delivered to the dog. 

Jeff

Thanks for the information Jeff!
What was described by a poster as a puppy being rubbed and struck with metal poles that were also being struck together was to desensitize the puppy to the feel and the noise.  During the protection phase the dogs are struck with sticks.  They used to be made of thin bamboo but nowadays they've been replaced by a nylon stick covered with padding and leather to lessen the chance of injury and the pain delivered to the dog. 
I have seen these 'padded' sticks and what was being used was certainly not one of those. It was a pole from a tent or set of goalposts.

There are more and more fun things to do with your dog being offered these days. Agility, Rally-O, Flyball, Heelwork to music, tricks classes and some even offer fun scent-work courses (with a mystery or crime to solve on the last session!!).
And that's without mentioning working trials, gundog classes and Search and Rescue groups....(eg Berkshire SAR, Surrey SAR etc)
There's plenty of choice out there so it's worth doing some digging?!

Good luck finding what you want to do and enjoy your dog :o)

(Totally agree with watching classes first)

I wouldnt recommend Schutzhund with a 'pet dog' - you dont want to gets it drive too high and then do nothing - if you buy a dog from working lines to specifically do this sport then fine.  It is expensive and takes ALOT of commitment in training from a young age if you want to be succesfull, it is not a sport for the faint hearted I am afraid.  Any dog can be trained 'later' if you just want to dabble.  Be mindful you need to have the lines in the breed to do this sport.  For example:  A pet Dobermann from non working lines doing Schutzhund - forget it!  Just an example of a breed :-)

I do think Schtuzhund is misunderstood and also seen as a 'fashion' - yes there are harsh methods that are used BUT you dont have to use them - remember YOU have a choice.  My friend has just won the Irish Nationals and she doesnt use any harsh methods - infact she uses a clicker! 

Just my opinion :-)

My dog is a pet, and doesn't do too badly at Schutzhund! ;)

FooFoo, I have PMd you, hope that's OK :) .

Tohme - All of my dogs are pets :-)  I am sure you know what I meant though.  :-)  Its not something you can dip in and out of if you want to succeed x