There is a pet shop in Whitton near Twickenham that is about to start selling puppies. I went to see them yesterday and although they would not give me the breeder's name they did give me some information. I believe from this that we have found the breeder and she is a member of Champdogs! She breeds pedigrees and crossbreeds and has several dogs at stud. What are the rules for members here and what are other breeders views on this?

If she tries to sell pedigree pups as KC registered, she's breaking the KC's code of ethics. Someone in our breed sold some pups to a London pet shop and by a sheer fluke I managed to get hold of some documentation to prove he'd done it, he was banned from breed Club membership and the KC did follow up on it - can't remember what happened to him - it was a long time ago!
My view - anyone who will sell their puppies without knowing where they are going to end up is, umm - sorry can't think of a printable description.

When I asked the KC about it as regards Harrods they said that they could not enforce their Code of Ethics and would only take action against an Accredited Breeder if they did it. Looking at this breeder's website I would be surprised if they belonged to a breed club and I was also very surprised to find them as a member on here.

They should be named and shamed!
As bad as a puppy farm.

No proof as yet so I will not put it on here. Some of you might like to put a breeder's point of view though on the pet shop's Facebook page. The owners were amazed that some breeders would actually offer lifetime back up for their puppies and take them back as older dogs if necessary.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Whitton-Pet-Centre/335810551201

I wouldn't buy ANYTHING from a pet shop that sells pups or kittens.  and I know i am far from only one.  it is an appalling thing to do and I would never give such premises my money for any other goods knowing how low their morals are.

They have been warned that it will affect their trade but they are not taking any notice. The demos outside if we can get them organised will also have an effect.

I don't want to comment because to do so you have to LIKE them first. How about posting a few links to the KC, such as these?
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/288 Code of ethics, proving the breeder is breaking them
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/208 Puppy farms, puppy dealers and pet shops
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2101 Finding the right dog breeder

snap, I had a look, but I am not going to comment, it would assume that you have to 'like' them before allowing a post..

Perhaps Mandy could cut and past the link and post it on their page so others can see what is written here instead

A few of us have had to Like them and some left again straight afterwards! Good idea with the links I will put them on there. The Puppy Love link has been posted a couple of times and the owners have even watched some of the videos and been horrified. They seem to believe though, that as long as the conditions are right, breeding and selling purely for money is perfectly acceptable.
I will not put this thread on there yet as I would like to get more info on the breeder first before she knows that we have found her. I might take a drive over there sometime although it is not that near.

If it scares the breeder off, then hopefully the 'project' will not get off the ground.

> My view - anyone who will sell their puppies without knowing where they are going to end up is, umm - sorry can't think of a printable description. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20 height=10>

I can!

OOpps  sorry - you said printable!

I have been to see this breeder and she has confirmed that Whitton Pet Centre has been to see her and also their vet. She did not confirm however that she is going to sell puppies to them. I will now name and shame, if it is allowed, as it was a puppy farm although not as bad as some. The dogs had no bedding in concrete runs, just empty plastic beds. They had plenty of dry food and some were extremely overweight. The ones that were not clipped had very poor coat condition.

Foxborough Farm Kennels.

This is a licensed breeder for 22 bitches and KC records show that she has bred from at least 36 bitches in the last 2 years including from the same bitch twice in a twelve month period. This does not include of course all the crossbreeds.

I hope that she will now be removed from Champdogs as I believe that this is a site that promotes responsible breeding. I will also be contacting her license authority. I will now put this thread on the Whitton Facebook page so any further comments on a breeder like this would be appreciated!

I think there are some other important factors that need to be addressed regarding people buying from pets shops... the first is the buyer cannot see the parents so cannot asses temprement, and or type.

As we all know no matter what breed it is puppies mature differently and some lines may carry a quirk like loose feet or rate of growth for example, how would the pet shop owner be able to reassure and guide an owner on a dog they effectively know very little about as its not just the parents that need to be taken into account but G Parents/ GG Parents and so on.

Health tests- are the parents, grand parents or great grandparents health tested for genetic heritable deases as even a cross breed will carry these deases?

Say one of us bred a litter and a few years down the line an owner asked to breed said pup, if the pup was of good enough quality as the breeder you would be able to point out any weaknesses and strengths within your line and help point the owners in the right direction as to the right stud. How could a pet shop do this?

Support- What sort of support would these owners get? One of our owners had some toilet training issues and apart from guiding on the phone we did a house visit / cuppa and cake to talk over the problem and help sort it (with our guidance the pup was clean within 2 weeks).With as many litters as you say how could you support all of those families and puppies that's madness?? And I bet any money that they are not affiliated with breed clubs... I always give contact information on all of our breed clubs as they are fountains of knowledge within the breed so would also help support as they have lots of experience.

When people go to buy a car they put much more thought into it, test driving, MOT etc etc you never buy the first car you see with little or no history attached so why on earth would you buy your dog who has to live within the house as part of the family with your children like this??

I found the listing - updated on 12th May 2011 - she is listed with three breeds - one which has the highest no of KC registered puppies per year, another which can have health problems and the the third which can have behavioural/temprement problems if not handled correctly.   I'm not naming the breeds because I dont want to give her any additional advertising.

Of course, it may be that the recession means that she is unable to shift her litters at 8 weeks and therefore has decided that she will off-load them to the pet shop trade in order to keep abreast financially.   Far better to restrict the number of breeding bitches, I would have thought!

Thanks for bringing this to our notice, Mandy and I hope that the thread does not disappear into the ether ....hope you've captured a screen print ;)

the worse thing about pet shops selling pups would be impulse buying, some people just could not resist and with no preperation or research buy a pup

You say you were not going to name and shame but you have already given over too much info as I found the breeder on here in about 2 seconds flat.

Having googled and found the website for the breeder it seems she has many different breeds and a range of dogs used at stud. Some say they have been health tested and others such as the KCS and the poodle have no mention of health tests - the poodle is available at stud to all breeds :-(

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/36271.html

Listed on this thread too :-(

"You say you were not going to name and shame but you have already given over too much info as I found the breeder on here in about 2 seconds flat."

Now that I know that it is the right breeder and I have been to see her I have named and shamed.

She is listed on the other thread from when she had a pet shop license. She told me that she had never had one as it was too much red tape and hassle! She obviously just finds it easier to breed enough puppies herself now.

I couldn't find the website from a google search only business directories like Yell.com

If you go down past all the business directory listings you will find they have their own website under the name of the kennels.

I see they are selling horses too, mares with foals at foot and who have already been covered for the following year ..... is this normal in horses ? also saw the stud fees for the stallions, £250 ?????? I expected it to be at least 4 times that

I also expected their horses to cost far more than the selling prices advertised.

What is very strange with the horses is that the mares are for sale with or without the foals. These foals should not be weaned until the autumn.
Whitton Pet Centre has had a tidy up on their Facebook wall and removed all the posts. Maybe they didn't like being totally exposed on there.

Screams puppy farmer to me sorry...I have checked them out and 1 breed she has a dog up for stud for has only had 1 health test and is missing two health tests that I would find most important within that breed.
Another breed she sells does not appear to have any health tests yet is offering it up for stud.
I see a familiar name on there too......oh dear.

Funny enough they are blocking anyone who posts anything about their support of puppy farming from their facebook page.

i would be v dubious about the lineage of those mares, those are VERY low prices if they are (and neither particularly look) RID.

It is not uncommon to sell mares already in foal, if they are quality broodmares most buyers would be buying for that purpose and wouldn't want to miss a year (and equine gestation is near as dammit a year)...  selling with the foal at foot is also not uncommon, but it is a bit more indicative of a 'breed it cos its got a womb' type stud, and offering to split the mare and foal before foal ought be weaned is just nasty.

It is also not typical to list a mare as 'rides well' - normally if the mare has a ridden career this is detailed as to what shes done, what shes won. 'Rides well' could mean anything and probably means 'has been sat on, didnt freak out' and nothing more!

The stallions... both according to her write up are not even done growing yet and the heavier coloured thing is very poor quality. The loud appaloosa is quite pretty... but what have they done? Where have they been? asides from their colour why are tehy worth breeding to? Oh.. yes they have the necessary equipment thus .....

Urgh - I wouldnt touch with someone elses barge pole!

What are the rules for members here and what are other breeders views on this?


Terms and Conditions of Membership

Champdogs membership is open to non-commercial dog breeders and owners. We do not accept membership applications from commercial breeders or puppy dealers.

We expect all breeders on Champdogs to adhere to the relevant breed society/club ethics and expect all the appropriate health checks for their breed to be performed.

No dog or bitch owned by any member shall be mated with any other breed or with unregistered stock. Breeders found to carry out this practice will be removed. Exception: At times the KC grants permission for the inter-breeding of pedigree dogs in set circumstances.

We reserve the right to refuse or terminate membership of any breeder found to not be acting in the best interests of their dogs. In particular any breeder found to be breeding from an underage bitch or having two litters from the same bitch within an 11 month period will be removed.

Any breeder who knowingly breeds from a dog with unacceptable health test results will be removed.
Champdogs considers the current Kennel Club age limit of 12 months far too young for a bitch to be bred from.

We apply a minimum age limit of 24 months at the date of whelping unless the relevant national breed club stipulates a different age.

Bitches will not produce more than 4 litters in total nor will be bred from after they have reached 8 years of age.

Dogs must be at least 18 months old before they can be added to the stud dog register.

I believe after looking at this womans website she is breaking many of the conditions of membership.

Admin - please can you look into this?

Mandy - have you sent a PM to Admin regarding this?  You know how they "don't always have time to read all the threads immediately they are posted".

I have!

' No live puppies free return' , from their web site. What does it mean?

That if a bitch mated to one of their dogs fails to produce living puppies then a free repeat mating is offered. That's pretty much standard procedure.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I don't want to comment because to do so you have to LIKE them first.

I agree with you Marianne, but really it's just the tip of a very big iceberg.

A couple of years ago I saw a person advertising Yorkshire Terriers on that site.  I was surprised because I thought that I knew the person.

I couldn't resist, and (norty, norty) phoned to enquire after a pup, asking questions that I would normally ask if genuinely enquiring.

I was surprised to find that their biggest selling pitch was telling me that they supplied Harrod's.  Blatantly, openly and boastfully.  :-(

I sent a PM to Admin yesterday asking them to remove this puppy farm. The rules are certainly very clear now that I have seen them and no way should she be a member.

Admin are usually very helpful they have removed at least two on their list by my request, let us hope that Mandys request is accepted too.

just had a good look on their website,they even have a paypal link so you can pay your deposit for your pup etc right now!!!i have no idea who they are under their champdog name and or even they coment on champdogse etc,i did find this page which gives mixed reviews on them,sad
http://www.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/foxboroughfarm-com-kennels-and-stud-14028590.html
jo

I am no linguist but the wording used in most of the positive reviews on that site looks pretty similar to me. Call me cynical but it wouldn't surprise me if the same person has written nearly all of them.

"I have just "

blah blah blah

"Thank you" or "Well done Foxborough Farm"

All properly punctuated and in a similar style to the short profile at the top of the page. I wonder if might be worth contacting the review site to find out if these are genuine reviews.

I also like the last comment after the don't touch with a barge pole comment about it must have been posted by a jealous competitor :-O

Gosh the day anyone feels jealous of a place like that is the day it's time to start keeping cuddly toys only!

Thanks to Admin for removing this breeder from the Champdogs listings. I will go and comment on the review site as I have seen the place.

Nice review Mandy :-)

Well done Mandy for sticking with this. Notice how all the good comments come after the bad ones!!! Most people will only look at the first few. I found this website a few years ago when I saw a litter of pups for sale and thought they seem to be doing everything right, Hips, eyes, barf feeding (which i feed) reared lovingly, well socialised, etc ect, then I saw the website and was mortified to see them breeding all the breeds and crossbreeds that they were. Its easy to see why jo public still buy from places like these, puppy farmers have cottened on to the fact people are looking for health tests ect. And thats when the buyer thinks they are doing the right thing. But what jo public have got to learn is to walk away, when they see the conditions these pups are in instead of feeling sorry for them and buying anyway :(

The other sad fact of life is that whilst the most of us on Champdogs live and breathe dogs, most people just want a pet and thats it, they don't really care where it comes from if its cheaper, they don't really care about the conditions they are kept in or how many times bitches are bred, and the people like these don't want to feel they have to prove themselves to a breeder, unlike us on champdogs, who expect to be quizzed til the cows come home and would walk away if we weren't. Its a shame we can't breed these bad points out of humans ;)

Good review Mandy. What struck me when reading the positive ones was talk of "my vet says this is such a healthy puppy". To me, that means NOTHING. Tell me how the dog is doing 5-10 years down the line (especially the Cavaliers!) as THAT is what matters. Being healthy as a pup means very little in comparison.

puppy farmers have cottened on to the fact people are looking for health tests ect. And thats when the buyer thinks they are doing the right thing. But what jo public have got to learn is to walk away, when they see the conditions these pups are in instead of feeling sorry for them and buying anyway

Nail on the head there Labs!

I am also aware of a local puppy farmer who deals in multiple breeds but uses Champdogs to promote himself.  He brings his puppies into the house/ conservatory when potential purchasers visit thereby giving the impression his puppies are appropriately raised. 

Recent discussion with local authority licensing officer revealed he has 49 breeding bitches.

It sickens me as he has also involved himself in local clubs - in positions of authority which, without doubt, promote his 'credibility' as a responsible breeder.

The puppy farmers are certainly getting smarter - unfortunately the dogs continue to suffer.

Again have you let admin know.

The puppy farmers are certainly getting smarter - unfortunately the dogs continue to suffer.

Never truer words said.... Unfortunately some of them are also KCAB's - been reported and still no action taken.  Head and brick wall spring to mind...

Yes - I have now.

Yes, this 'breeder' claims to have AB status.

My issue is that with so many dogs being owned - unless DNA testing is made compulsory - who is to say which animals produced the puppies?  Surely it is simple enough to claim a litter is sired by a stud dog who holds health certificates when in reality it is a different sire?  Or to register a litter to a different bitch because 'Bitch A' has already registered a litter less than 12 months earlier....

I wonder if this is common practice in large poorly-managed kennels?

There are many that claim Accredited status that are not, have you confirmed with the kennel club that they are or were KCAB.

Some of these puppy producers are misleading people in the same way as with registration advertise registered pups when they are not 'Kennel club registered'  the same with Accredited breeder, they are not Kennel club Accredited but some mickey mouse outfit or simply a registered commercial breeder with their Local Authority.

The kennel club when provided with proof of breaching conditions of the scheme remove KCAB all the time, though they do have to check allegations in case they are malicious.

If you are suggesting parentage DNA verification for every puppy registered with the KC this will add an awful lot to the already high costs of breeding properly, already you have the general public happily going to puppy producers for a cheaper puppy as they see no need for even the basics fo KC registration.

Just the practicalities of testing a litter of puppies correctly (they need to be segregated from each other, be fully weaned to ensure an uncontaminated DNA sample, and then there would be a long wait for the results (labs would be overrun with applications delaying homing of puppies.

I for one would not be able to segregate a litter from it's dam to be sure they no longer fed from her, or from each other for half a day as in 'my home' I do not have half a dozen or more places to put individual pups, nor would I want or need to.

Most people that we call breeders use outside stud dogs (so two people would need to be falsifying records), they have no need to pretend wrong parentage as it has no purpose, the parents are the parents, and in a lot of cases one can tell just by looking who the parents of a dog are.

On the other hand I would be more than happy if  'commercial ' kennels (those required to be licensed by the Local Authority) had to do this, breeding from their 'anonymous' bitches and stud dogs, as it would add to their costs.