> Husband and wife 'team' both Championship Show Judges

What difference does this make?

No medium sized hound.Unwise of me to go further as I will be ostracized by that particular 'community'.

Celtic Lad, most of us on here are judges, and most of your replies are from judges..

Sorry but I was responding to a post by JeanSW.I was simply highlighting that by their status they are deemed responsible,knowledgeable people.I certainly did not mean to cause any offence to anyone on this forum.

Well think you have learnt a lesson sadly. Like all of us do, just hope the pup you brought into the world finds a loving permanent home. Above post lol assumptions are often wrong have had dealing with this sort in the past do as we say not as we do!

I concur.

I certainly did not mean to cause any offence to anyone on this forum.

I think that you misread what Kayc was trying to highlight she wasn't offended, she was saying that those who are judges on champdogs and there are many here, :-) would not have treated you like this, they would not have taken a pup and a stud fee, this couple are just greedy, you get good and bad in all and reputation is everything to most of us. :-) You should never let someone's status sway you, if you don't like it in future walk away.........

> I certainly did not mean to cause any offence to anyone on this forum.
>
> I think that you misread what Kayc was trying to highlight she wasn't offended,

Oh, Absolutely no offence taken.  maybe I worded my reply badly. As Carrington says, do not let anyone's status sway you..

It has been a good thread, it may help others who are looking for similar advice and be lucky enough to find this thread before taking any decision.. :-)

Firstly I would like to thank everyone for comments made.I think 'everyone' can learn from my experience.However I would close by saying that I did absolutely everything by the book in terms of gaining the services of the stud dog.There does come a time where you have to place your trust in someone.

I know a bit late in the game here LOL, the last stud we went to the fee was the same price as a pup give or take, the kennel had oversea's blood, UK blood as well as a home bred champion and a stud producing champions offered for stud so there was quite a choice, regardless of the dog chosen all carried the same stud fee.

I recently inquired about another stud from an outside kennel out of interest and the owner wanted a full stud fee as well as choice pup. My mouth hit the floor its a shame as I really liked the boy but my god I thought it was very steep; In my eyes it sounded greedy and no way on earth would I give away choice pup it isnt fair as 9 times out of 10 people breed to keep the best pup for themselves and its the bitches owners who put all that time a effort into raising the litter, sleepless nights etc etc.

If there is only one pup do you still have to hand it over??
You lose out both ways if thats the case.

ETA..sorry just read the complete topic.

> If there is only one pup do you still have to hand it over??
> You lose out both ways if thats the case.
>
>

Which is why I made a point early on in this thread.  The OP was extremely surprised at such a low stud fee, in comparison to price of pup, in my particular breed.

Bear in mind, the one pup scenario is common in my breed.  And, although, in theory, a stud fee is for the result of a pregnant bitch, it is always possible to have one dead puppy.  I once had someone use my dog - stud fee £200, and the bitch didn't have live puppies.  I offered a free return, as I felt so sorry for the bitch owner, who was devastated.

I once had someone use my dog - stud fee £200, and the bitch didn't have live puppies.  I offered a free return, as I felt so sorry for the bitch owner, who was devastated.

Gosh yes -been there, done it. I had one bitch where I paid a stud fee (quite a bit more than what you mentioned but very fair for the breed) and from two litters ended up with just one live puppy (I did get a free repeat mating as there was nothing alive in the first litter). That one pup obviously ended up costing me a lot of money overall but thankfully he's quality and was well worth it, and as my reason for breeding was something for myself to show anyway, that's what counted and that's what I got. Icing on the cake -that single pup (now adult, of course) has recently become a father of four, all alive. :)

> Gosh yes -been there, done it.

I think a lot of us have Marianne.  And, although I only allow one of my boys for use at outside stud, I have recently had a visiting bitch (she came to bed with me for a week :-) )
And I didn't charge at all.  I had my own reasons for this, and its' my choice.  But I don't think anyone could say that people like us are out to cover our costs!!!  :-)

Don't know if it still applies but at one time it seemed common in my breed for the stud owner to only take the fee when the pups were born, think it may be different now and a second mating more usual, the fee is the same as a puppy the litter size 6 to 8.

Hi there i have sent a PM.

Still is Nova. 

When the dog we owned in partnership was being used we did ask for a £50 fee deposit for the partner handling the mating so they had something for their trouble (boarding the bitch etc), the rest after a litter were born.

I have always been prepared to pay the fe after the mating, but in every case the stud dog owners have prefred to wait for the fee after pups were born.

If my own experience is anything to go by the average/mean live litter size is 6 these days, I seem to have 4 or 7 most often.  Adding up the registration statistics this does seem to be so.

I have never taken a stud fee until the litter is born. In fact, I prefer to wait until the first couple of pups have been sold. The stud fee in my breed is quite large - usually around the price of a correctly marked puppy, and I'd rather the bitch owner had as much money as possible available to them for the raising of the litter.

So if there are no puppies, then no fee. And once when there was a small litter, I charged a smaller stud fee. I know I didn't have to - but I'd rather do what I feel happy with. It is up to the stud dog owner to set the fee they want - if the bitch owner doesn't want to pay it, they can go elsewhere.

ETA: I must admit that I do like the idea of a handling fee :) It can be incredibly intrusive when you own a stud dog! And I have thought about the idea of charging a set handling fee and then a fee per live puppy. To me, this seems fairer to both sides but some don't like the idea.

This is straying slightly off topic but on this occasion I was asked to sign the contract and pay the fee in full directly before the mating took place.However a number of years ago I did indeed wait until my bitch was confirmed in whelp.This needless to say was with another breeder. 

Seems odd to pay the fee before the mating? But I suppose if the stud dog owners have had bad experiences with people not paying, then it's too late by the time the mating has taken place. I wonder if they would have returned it if there hadn't been a mating - did you ask?

As I've already stated, I think it's up to the stud dog owner to set the fee that they want - and up to the bitch owner to accept those terms or go elsewhere. Personally, I think that a fee AND a puppy is greedy - but they obviously have their reasons and it's their decision.

Funnily enough unsuccessful mating first time-money returned.Successful matings on subsequent days.Largely speaking I agree with your comments.However if you agree to run the pup on to six months and then sell at three months that ain't quite right in my book.Especially when the stud dog owner has confirmed that the pup was of high quality.

I think the terms may depend on the way the stud owner looks at having a dog at stud, to some it is part of their breeding business, to others a bit of pin money or a help towards the showing fees, but I like to think that to most it is a service to their breed because it is this type that will offer the help and advice to those new to breeding and not grab every bitch that an enquiry is made for but advice the bitch owner if there is a better choice.

I do agree with you, Celtic Lad, that to sell the pup on earlier than agreed, without discussion, was unfair. Did you not ask them to agree to give you first refusal if they decided not to keep her?

Did not think that this would become an issue.They appeared genuinely happy with the quality of the pup.

Where the handling fee is either deducted from the total stud fee once puppies are on the ground, or kept in the event of there being no puppies to cover the stud dog owner's trouble, then I have no issue with it, but where the handling fee is charged on top of a stud fee, which in my breed is already the price of a puppy, then I do feel, and will continue to feel that it is unethical.  What else is the "price of a puppy" stud fee for, other than the service of the dog and the inconvenience to the stud dog owner?  This was never the way it was done in our breed years ago, and it is a practice that is unfortunately beginning to creep in.  To my mind it is unjustifiable.  When we started in my breed more than 30 years ago, it seemed to be all about helping each other and working together in the interests of the breed, but those days are passing, to the detriment of all.  We frequently helped friends with stud work, as they helped us early on, and had other people's dogs on our property for matings if they were not able to manage on their own, and nobody charged anything for that assistance.

A handling fee plus a moderate charge per puppy is a different arrangement, and far more acceptable.

As a stud dog owner myself, like Ridgielover, I charge the standard price per puppy for the use of my dog, unless the litter is small, in which case I charge either a reduced fee or no fee at all.  No fee is paid until the puppies begin to go to their new homes.  I don't charge for boarding the bitch (and she doesn't always bring her own food!), and we sometimes travel the length and breadth of the country picking up and dropping off so as to help with the breeder's costs.  Of course, the stud dog owner can charge what they like, but if someone tried to charge me a handling fee on top of a stud fee, then I would certainly walk away.  The thought of charging a stud fee plus a puppy is even more ludicrous.

Edited to say:  My bitch went for mating and got stranded at the stud dog owners' house during the petrol crisis of 2000.  I was not charged anything for boarding her for a fortnight, and they were amongst the most well-known stud dog owners in the breed, with a number of Champions at stud.  Old school, like us.  We did buy them a good bottle of whiskey to say thank you.

I agree the handling fee should simply be a deposit for the rest of the stud fee.

In some countries the kennel clubs actually have suggested stud contracts people are expected to use.

I have seen them suggest either a flat fee (suggested as price of a puppy) or handling fee plus an amount per puppy reared.

The dog I use dog in Finland I used the owner normally charged EUR100 and then EUR50 per puppy, had I gone with that I would have paid EUR450. 

She was happy to take instead what we pay here, the price of a puppy at that time £450.  As she was putting me up and going to so much trouble I felt it fairer that she got a reasonable fee in the event of no pups or a small litter.

Hi Vanhalla I get the feeling that you actually 'walk the walk'.Too often there are those who say all the right things and do the opposite.

> Hi Vanhalla I get the feeling that you actually 'walk the walk'.

That was a bit cutting.. Valhalla has only stated what most of us actually all do.. I dont take a stud fee until the 1st pups are sold.. and rarely have paid a stud fee up front either.. on the occassion that I did pay a stud fee, no litter, in fact no litter in the TWO return matings, (It just was not meant to be) the stud owner gave me my money back.. by this time we were two years down the line.. A lovely thing to do .. I always give a free return too.. although only ever needed to once, and in another case I gave the bitch owner her money back because next season I would have considered the bitch too old for a 1st litter

Just because we all do not tell everyone how and what we do, does not mean that we don't walk the walk as well as talk the talk.. in effect, whatever we do with one bitch owner may be different from another.. I have also given a free use of stud to someone who I thought deserved it.. but we don't shout about it..

We have only come on here because we all feel quite shocked at how you have been treated by the stud owner..

not only have i kept the bitch here, but owner stayed for the week as well lol... (but I have never let her live that one down lol) :-)

I don't believe I was shouting about it Kayc -but I do feel most strongly about the way things seem to be heading in my own breed.

No.. It was absolutely not you shouting about it, it was Celtic lad thinking that you were the only one who walks the walk as well as talk the talk etc.. it makes the rest of us feel that we are just making noises about right and wrong ways.. it felt a bit like a kick in the teeth after trying to explain what is NOT the norm..

I understand your post completely.. and everyone does have differing ways of doing things, even from breed to breed..

Maybe it was how CL worded his reply but, I did feel it a bit cutting to be honest..

Slighty taken aback by 'kayc' and her post.I did not direct the comment at anyone on this forum.Really no need to be so sensitive.

I am anything but sensitive lol.. and yes, you plainly made your comment to one particular person...lol.. and never be taken aback by anything I say.. I say what I think ;-) 

Might be an idea to think before you say.

We had someone newish to the breed who bought in a nice dog who got made up.

Sometime later I asked to use him as he came from long established typey lines.

I was sent a stud card with all prices laid out: boarding, heating, handling, telephone costs etc etc.

Over my dead body!!  This person sunk without trace. What goes around etc etc.

The top kennel in the land invites you for dinner or meets you half way or anything to help you out.

Thats the way it has been .........and since this is still a 'hobby' .......the way it I hope it continues.

oh dear.. Maybe I should say what I really think.. ;-)

> Might be an idea to think before you say.<

Might I suggest you take your own advice, Celtic Lad!

You've been advised what reputable, conscientious breeders do - and it would appear that you have taken some offence at what you've been told that we do.   

Just do a search on Champdogs for stud fees - and you'll find that we're all singing from the same hymn sheet.  I'm sorry that you've found it difficult to accept.

Can i just say , some of the most concienous breeders get taken for a ride , i for one let a person use my  boy (a proven sire) no fee up front  , i don't handle my boy but have an expert who does , i paid him for the handling , unbeknown to me a pup was produced  but not registered , no fee paid ! only thru the grapevine did i find out  and still cant prove it without dna, it is the bitch that determines numbers and the dog that determines sex but they sold the pup for xxx i still paid fort the handling fee so i am out of pocket  and minus a stud fee , so its not always the bitch owners that feel ripped off

Yet again thanks for many of the comments made.Cheers.

Newfienook, it is sad that some people stoop to such low levels, but at least you were just out of pocket in monetary terms.. at least you didn't lose a pup too :-)

When my bitch was bred the stud owner wanted a pup or price of a pup. not both.
He took nothing upfront, he looked at the litter when they were born and at 4.6.8 wks and he picked one he wanted.
Otherwise he would have been due the price i would have charged for puppies.

I think it is important to have a good trusting relationship with your stud owner, and both be honest about who wants what
from the breeding from the start, so many problems can occur when people dont discuss things properly.

Agree but it is no good the stud owner wanting the pick bitch if that is the reason you are breeding in the first place to produce a bitch for yourself, so don't just agree pick of litter but make sure you want different sexes or you may both want the same pup.

the stud owner gave me my money back  Lucky you!!  A couple of years ago I took one of my girls to be mated to a Champion stud.  This was to be my girls second litter, she'd been swabbed for infection and ovulation tested etc.  Whereas normally I get to hold my bitch - they wanted to handle themselves and on both occasions we visited they appeared to tie but we had no puppies.

Just after the matings, they moved right to the other end of the country - it just wasn't worth travelling that distance to possibly miss again so I 'lost' my money.

I did ask some while later if I could have a puppy they bred from the stud as part payment for stud use - but that's another story....

> I did ask some while later if I could have a puppy they bred from the stud as part payment for stud use - but that's another story....

I know...that takes us into the " but the stud fee is for the owners time"...I dont buy that one. £500 for a few minutes of a hobbyists time!

I'd far rather deal with a fellow enthusiast than a pseudo professional any time....no matter what dog they've got. I cant say Ive suffered because of it.

Just to add what the common practice is in my breed, stud fee's appear to be about £400-£550 depending on awards won etc which is around the same price for a pup, but it would be one or the other, not both.

The breeder of my young dog will happily take the bitch in for as long as the owner would like and also will happily have the owner stay if they wished to. She also doesn't expect cash up front & will wait till pups have been sold and if the bitch isn't in whelp & if they decide to try again it's for free.

That's how I would also work it if either of my boys were at stud..........still thinking about that one though, it's a toughy! 1,000 and 10 things to think about!

Gemma....my point entirely!!

The way you are treated often becomes the way you treat others.

I must say that Boxer people have always been the most generous and helpful people, when it comes to studs, Ive encountered in any breed.

Wish I had Boxers !!!

My last visit to a boxer stud dog owner included a three course dinner with wine.

My friends last visit to a Rottweiler stud ...she wasnt allowed in to use the loo after a 5 hour drive, not even a cup of coffee offered :(

Boxers obviously have a touch of class.....but did he wash the dishes afterwards !

I only charge a stud fee, I wouldn't dream of demanding a puppy as well, but unfortunately it is becoming more and more common in my breed for these types of contracts especially from some of the top show kennels.
I personally refuse to hand over a considerable amount of money (£750 +is the norm) and a puppy.

To be honest a stud fee plus a puppy and the stud dog owner is likely to do better out of the litter than the breeder as they really have no costs other than keeping the dog fit and well and up to date with health testing (perhaps some time off work to handle matings, and board the bitch).

The breeder may or may not cover their costs, have the work of rearing the litter and the lifelong responsibility hands on for the puppies.  A good stud owner may well help out with a returned puppy/adult, but the main responsibility and costs are with the breeder.

The price of a puppy is more than fair for the studs part.  

With a problem free litter it takes 4 puppies to cover basic costs in my breed.  So with a larger litter you may have something over to pay for a few show entries or petrol, or misses from previous breeding attempts, or boarding a returned former pup. 

If there are problems whelping or rearing your likely to be well out of pocket with an average litter for a medium size breed (6 - 7 pups).  Then of course there may be a glut of pups of your breed or sex at the tiem they are to be homed and you have to feed, vaccinate, worm etc the pups for several weeks/months more.

Fee and a puppy is having your cake and eating it too.