Hi All,

At what age do you Neuter your male dogs? I have always been told around the age of 1, but I have always used the same vet and reading here it seems a bit later might be better?

Learning a lot of new things from this forum so thanks for all your help over the past few weeks.

Josh

I take it you have intact bitches and want to avoid an accident, if this is they case then he would be able to father a litter younger than a year but I would not advise castrating a dog that young but then I would not castrate a dog at all except for a medical reason. I can see though if you have intact bitches you may have no option.

> At what age do you Neuter your male dogs?

Josh. My answer would be don't at any age, realise our dogs situation is uncommon but has left him in all  probability smelling like a bitch and too often charged by other dogs uncertain as to what he is, and end up humping him. Realise many do not have this problem but would not neuter a dog again unless there was a medical reason for doing so. I also think that many vets push neutering when it is unnecessary.

I don't have any dogs currently but I do like to neuter my male dogs as I feel it is a good way to reduce the risk of them running off after an intact bitch and catching them when off lead.

Josh

> I have always been told around the age of 1, but I have always used the same vet and reading here it seems a bit later might be better?

If you own a male puppy, you'll find the vets will push you to have it neutered at 6 months old. There's a reason for this - it can in some instances prevent behavioural issues. However, it can also create others which wouldn't have occured had you left him entire. They won't tell you that!

I ummed and ahhed over having mine don (never a breeding prospect from the outset), and from the start I decided 6 months was way too early if it was going to be done at all - as most Champdogs members would agree. He did go on to develop behaviourial issues at puberty, and at 18 months old I finally succumbed to advice and had him chopped. It made him worse.

I now believe that if I hadn't, it would have taken me a lot less time & work to overcome these issues - he is now 5 and only just making headway. Removing a dog's testicles can remove its confidence, so if the behavioural issues are due to fear or nerves, you are going to make things worse by taking them away.

If you want a dog neutered to stop him breeding, there is the Surprelorin implant, or do what other good owners have done for centuries - manage the dogs well and physically prevent him meeting any in-season bitches. Mistakes do happen even in the best-run homes, but there is the mismate injection for that, and a hefty dose of learning from your errors if you are a conscientious person in the first place.

If you want a dog neutered to stop him breeding, there is the Surprelorin implant, or do what other good owners have done for centuries - manage the dogs well and physically prevent him meeting any in-season bitches. Mistakes do happen even in the best-run homes, but there is the mismate injection for that, and a hefty dose of learning from your errors if you are a conscientious person in the first place.
I don't have any bitches so I am not worried about that, it's more the fact that I know there are MANY intact bitches in the area and you never know if their owners enough are going to be caring enough to take prevantative measures.

I always believe in the extra benefits to the dogs. Obviously if there was behavioural problems I would not get a male neutered but I have had it done with my previous male dogs and countless friends and have never had a behavioural problem for it but then maybe we have all been very lucky? I would much prefer to get him neutered but if there is any literature available I would like to consider both arguments and make my own decision. I've only ever known the positive sides to be advertised so have never considered it to have negative effects either.

I always believe in the extra benefits to the dogs.

What extra benefits would there be to a male dog being neutered, if you don't have bitches? None. Even if neutered he may still run off after a bitch in the park (that comes down to training above all) and neutered dogs will still mate and tie just as if they were entire.

Some of my dogs are neutered, that's purely for my own convenience as I have several bitches. Without resorting to kennelling several dogs, I cannot keep more than two entire males, that's my limit.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/neuteringmaledogs

The Behavioral Effects of Canine CastrationAn Owners Guide by Hazel Palmer (1993)

> I do like to neuter my male dogs as I feel it is a good way to reduce the risk of them running off after an intact bitch and catching them when off lead.
>
>

Josh - I would 100% recommend that you learn fantastic recall.  I prefer this to castration.  And yes, I've had an intact male race after a bitch on heat (why would any idiot have her running loose?) but the recall was 100% and he preferred to return to me, than pursue the bitch.

OK, in fairness, it was a Border Collie, so recall would usually be 100%, but please don't underestimate the power of correct training.

I've always found my previous dogs (and those of family/friends) to be a lot more relaxed around females after being neutered. Above all else my dogs have always had excellent recall and in my mind at least, I would imagine training wouldn't come into play when a dog has the natural instinct to go and breed, no matter how well conditioned a dog was? As I say- I can only speak from my own experiences and do welcome those of other dog owners with more experience than I as I am a relative new comer after only having 'family' dogs rather than one of my own.

It also removes the risk of testicular cancer- some say it reduces prostate problems too but others dispute that so I don't consider that as a positive or negative point.

I know *if* they did go after a bitch he would still mate and tie however there would be zero risk of pregnancy and therefore zero risk of more crossbreed/badly bred puppies ending up with bad owners because the owner of the bitch didn't take a mismate jab.

After the research I have done (haven't had a chance to look through the uni library to see if there is any academic material there on it but will do come September) on the internet I came to the conclusion that I would rather neuter than leave whole. However, as I have mentioned I came across very little negative/anti-neutering literature. My question wasn't really inviting debate into neutering/not neutering, more to ask what age is appropriate *if* you DO choose to neuter your dog.

As you say- you have had your dogs done for convenience. Surely if it is something to be done for 'convenience' then the risks cannot be so great? I want to do it for MY convenience and peace of mind with so many local female dogs left entire around.

Josh - I would 100% recommend that you learn fantastic recall.  I prefer this to castration.  And yes, I've had an intact male race after a bitch on heat (why would any idiot have her running loose?) but the recall was 100% and he preferred to return to me, than pursue the bitch.

OK, in fairness, it was a Border Collie, so recall would usually be 100%, but please don't underestimate the power of correct training.

My dogs in the past have never chosen to go after an intact bitch over listening to the recall, however you know how focussed some dogs can be once they get scent of a bitch on heat and even with the most reliable recall, I wouldn't feel 100% certain that they would prefer to return on command than running after a bitch on heat as it's not a situation you can really test to see how strong the recall is under those conditions until you come across a bitch in heat and your dog returns.. or doesn't!

Thanks for the links tohme. Will have a look over them tomorrow.

> so have never considered it to have negative effects either.

Change in coat condition, hair loss ( almost bald underneath), skin & ear issues. Glands too have been a problem which he never had before.

Are there any sorts of statistics for dogs that have problems caused by neutering?

Josh, when you've only ever lived with neutered boys it can sometimes be difficult to see how leaving them entire can be better.  When I was growing up, all our family pets were neutered and vets are often so positive about it that you really don't see any other options...

Have you started visiting breeders yet?  You might find that you meet a few entire dogs that will change your mind :)

We have a neutered rescue boy who I believe has few disadvantages from being neutered however, now we are a multidog household, it's clear that the others aren't always sure what he is.  My friends bitch just cannot leave him alone!

This is one subject where some breed specific examples can be helpful so do ask lots of questions when you visit breeders.  Once you've chosen a breeder, it will be well worth taking time to meet the stud dog too.  Good luck :)

I'm going to meet the breeder of a litter tomorrow actually so I will ask for their breed-specific advice :) They've been in the breed for years so should have a fair experience of neutered vs 'entire' in the breed. We're meeting the stud dog, the bitch (Breeder uses their own dogs for stud) and the breeder also has a pup she is minding who is the offspring of the stud dog so will get a really good overall idea of the type of dogs to be expected.

It also removes the risk of testicular cancer-

And how many dogs do we know of with that? It's a typical vet excuse. I worked as a vet nurse at home in Sweden and never once saw a case of testicular cancer. This was when it was illegal to neuter dogs in Sweden. I've had entire dogs for 30 years now and have never seen it.

(Breeder uses their own dogs for stud)

Make sure to ask why. Too often it is for convenience's sake, most of us travel not only across the country but across the world to get the best and most suitable studs for our bitches, rather than use what is close at hand. I've actually twice now used dogs of my own -one is co-owned and imported so was obviously bought for the purpose of bringing in new blood (and as he is co-owned does not live with me, so still had a long journey), the other I have a litter from right now as he simply was the most suitable dog for the bitch in question -but now when he's been used on her once that will be it, I can't see myself having any further use of him on my own bitches as repeating a mating is of little value and obviously he can't go to his daughter. (Same for the import, of course.) So next time it will be back to travelling again. In other words, unless a breeder has an awful lot of dogs, a stud dog you own is normally only used once on their own bitches.

This will be their first litter in two years so it will be the first time using this particular male for stud on their own dog. The dog was not bred by her but is owned by the breeder and fits the breed standard perfectly. He has a fantastic temperament, low hip scores and is Haemophilia A tested. He has been studded out to other bitches and produced great litters so the breeder has chosen to stud him with one of her own bitches that have produced good puppies in the past.

On balance there are more negatives than positives to neutering a male dog. 

This study refers, giving the pros and cons: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

If you do not allow your dog to be a latchkey dog then you are doing your bit, the rest is up to bitch owners to keep their bitches home or on lead away from loose dog walking areas when in season.

I have entire bitches an also a neighbour used to have large entire male dogs (dobermans) and we never had isues even though I frequently am in her house so the dog woudl ahve smelt my girls on em and oru gardens are only 100 feet apart.

Intact mature dogs are surprisingly sensible and contra to belief will not be chasing after any bitch they see, most know when a bitch is "ready" and when they are not wanted. Mind you if a dog is castrated before full maturity they often remain as a teenager and finish up being a pain to their owners and all bitch owners, they will continue to hunt for a bitch and mate if they can but will not cause a litter, intact mature males do not behave in that manner.

As to cancer in the testis it can happen on rare occasion and that is the time to castrate but prostate cancer is very rare in the intact dog but is more common in the castrated.

If you do not want a dog why are you having one would it not be better to have a bitch?

Over the years I have kept a number of dogs and always in groups and the only one I have had trouble with is was my first who I was persuaded to castrate at 13 months, I have never forgiven myself for what it did to him and I would never do it again particularly as in most cases it is for the owners convenience and is of no help to the dog.

I know many GSD owners and the males get on very well with other males even in mixed households, they do nto seem to be particularly over sexed.

Adolescence as in the human male can be a time fo thinking they are cock of the walk, but this passes with maturity and good training.

People are often told that it will take 6 months or more to reap the behavioural benefits fo castration, what they don't say is the negative hormonal effects wear off after the testosterone settles down to adult levels. 

During puberty there is five times the concentration of testosterone to enable the male to fully develop and differentiate into male characteristics.  Its actually these secondary sex characteristics that give males that imposing male look which is often the the reason people choose a male over a female in the first place.

Josh, even if you do think that neutering might be your preferred option.  Wait until your dog is 3 years old before deciding.  The chances are that at this age you'll find that you have a very sensible, grounded, young man who won't benefit at all from the operation :)

You genuinely don't have to decide early as you need to wait until after your dog has fully matured.  Just be prepared to explain that aspect to the vet when you go for vaccinations etc.  Most will respect your decision and once they realise you're going to be a responsible owner, will even support you.

Just my own experience...I have dogs and bitches.  I never thought I would go down the castration route (I show my dogs so generally wouldn't) but I found I did this year.  I have a large breed male who through having cruciate ops missed out on proper socialisation and play from 13 months to 3 years...as he has matured he was becoming a little bit of a handful and being far too pushy for my liking with people and other dogs.  I have worked extremely hard with him but still find it difficult to get people who have no fear of my breed to help overcome his issues and after him being a particular pain in the bum whilst one of my bitches was in season this year I decided to get him castrated.  In this particular case only a month/2 months down the line I have noticed improvements...he plays nicer with the girls out on walks, is more relaxed and has lost his attitude out on walks...so for this situation it worked.  Oh and he was castrated at 4 1/2 years old.
If however I have a male dog who has a lovely temperament and healthy I would see no reason on getting them castrated especially not at a young age.

I will leave it later than one year before I make my decision however so far I am swaying towards getting him done vs not getting him done. The reasons behind wanting to castrate were not behavioural but to reduce the risk of accidental pregnancy if he *did* come across an intact bitch. I would never use an operation/procedure purely for modifying behaviour.

Thank you for all your input on the topic.

Josh

A dog or bitches hormones are far, far more important to their physical and mental well being than we are led to believe by the veterinary profession.  Josh, you are not prepared to subject your dog to an operation "purely for modifying behaviour" but you are prepared to do it because another owner may be irresponsible with their bitch?  I would urge you to give this careful consideration - for a good deal longer than 12 months.

> but to reduce the risk of accidental pregnancy if he *did* come across an intact bitch.

He has to do more than meet an in-season bitch for there to be a litter ;)

My dog is entire (no plans to get him done). He is friendly with both male & female dogs, the only time his behaviour has changed was when a  loose, in-season bitch ran up to him. He was visibly 'physically' excited at this little dog pestering him, but he listened to me when I said 'leave' as I also had a goodie for him (I always carry some form of tit-bit as you never know when the lure of food will come in handy or you encounter a new situation that the dog can be re-inforced for behaving well in (my dog is food motivated)).

Just to add on the end, i have read the article a few years back and understand the pro's and cons. I would not get a dog neutered before it was physically mature.

But out of interest in others opinions, do you think it is beneficial as it lessens arousal? Surely if i told my fella he was never allowed it he would be very very unhappy.

Josh, how many people do you know who let their in season bitches just wander around? 

You've then also got to let your dog just wander off to find this bitch.... it just doesn't happen these days - certainly not where I live anyway!

It's certainly no reason to get your dog castrated. 

But out of interest in others opinions, do you think it is beneficial as it lessens arousal?

As I have said many a time before (I probably sound like a broken record -sorry!), it's never stopped my dogs from mating and tying -regardless of what age they were neutered at. All it does is stop pups from being born. Currently I have a Golden who was neutered aged 3 ½ years, a large crossbreed neutered aged 4 ½ months (big mistake never to be repeated!), a Papillon neutered aged 9 months and a Cavalier neutered aged 10 months, so a variety of breeds and ages. All of these will mate and tie. (As did my previous Cavalier who was neutered aged 3. He was still trying to mate aged 15!) Oh and I have a 2 ½ year old Malinois currently implanted with Suprelorin -he is to be castrated next month. He mated and tied despite the Suprelorin although he only did it ONCE, then lost interest. Worried us no end that he'd have got the bitch pregnant despite the implant having been in for the requisite minimum number of weeks.  No puppies resulted so he was infertile.

In my experience with these dogs, neutering does nothing but make them infertile, it changes nothing else at all.

Thats interesting how many are still sexually active even though neutered. my boy has had two of my girls stood in front of his bed before now winking their lady bits at him and he hadnt a clue. whereas before he was neutered he was really distressed when they were in season.

I think its what is best for you, i agree Marriane that all dogs wont be affected by neutering with regards to sexual awareness but i think as long as the dog is physicallu and mentally mature i cant see the harm in it.

But there is potentially harm in it - as demonstrated in the information in Brainless' link earlier.

but isnt there "potential" harm either way?

On the positive side, neutering male dogs

* eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
* reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
* reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
* may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs

* if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
* increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
* triples the risk of hypothyroidism
* increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
* triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
* quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
* doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
* increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
* increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

IMO the "negatives" heavily outweigh the "positives"

* if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
I agree i would never castrate before full maturity
* increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6 as i am unsure what this is i cant comment
* triples the risk of hypothyroidism  imo if the dog is genetically programmed to be hypothyroid it will happen anyway
* increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment this will always be a possibilty with an old dog
* triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems  manageable with the correct diet and exercise
* quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer  as it says small risk
* doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers   again small risk
* increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
* increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations  these last two have no statistics so is imo unreliable as to what the risk is

all that being said, i am not disagreeing with anyone with regards to neutering as long as you know the facts about diet management and that the dog should be MINIMUM 1 year old, the others are small risks for peace of mind if you prefer a castrated dog.

I think it is completely personal depending on the owner, their household and the dog in question.

http://www.caninecancerawareness.org/html/CanineCancerHemangiosarcoma.htm

Don't wish to be rude but why do you think you can improve on nature, neutering not only removes the ability to procreate it also removes a large chunk of the hormones the dog, or bitch, needs to live a normal life (hence the use of HRT). So unless it is medically necessary it is surely wrong to amend your dog in this way. And do not think that in nature a dog has the expectation or right to mate anything he likes or even anything at all it does not work that way only a few are successful studs whether domesticated or wild.

I don't neuter them at all unless there is a compelling medical reason for it (e.g. my oldest boy had a retained testicle removed, but at least he was able to keep the other), I have three dogs and feel it's my responsibility to keep them away from bitches in season 

A dog or bitches hormones are far, far more important to their physical and mental well being than we are led to believe by the veterinary profession.  Josh, you are not prepared to subject your dog to an operation "purely for modifying behaviour" but you are prepared to do it because another owner may be irresponsible with their bitch?  I would urge you to give this careful consideration - for a good deal longer than 12 months.

As I say- I do not want to run the risk of allowing a male to catch a female and bring more unwanted puppies into the world. I would much rather allow my dog off lead on walks to exercise without having to worry about him catching in-season bitches running about with their in-season bitches. It does happen and I have heard of a number of litters in the area from dogs which have been 'caught in the park.'

Josh, how many people do you know who let their in season bitches just wander around?

You've then also got to let your dog just wander off to find this bitch.... it just doesn't happen these days - certainly not where I live anyway!

It's certainly no reason to get your dog castrated. 
"It doesn't happen these days" is a bit of a blanket statement don't you think? It has happened in my area- has done in the past and probably will do in the future. My dog wouldn't just 'wonder off', I will allow to run off the lead for exercise and as my dogs have always been the type to play and greet other dogs, how would I know in advanced which dogs/owners we were going to meet? I think I'll be the decider of whether it is 'no reason to get my dog castrated' thanks. It's quite an objective topic.

As I have said many a time before (I probably sound like a broken record -sorry!), it's never stopped my dogs from mating and tying -regardless of what age they were neutered at. All it does is stop pups from being born. Currently I have a Golden who was neutered aged 3 ½ years, a large crossbreed neutered aged 4 ½ months (big mistake never to be repeated!), a Papillon neutered aged 9 months and a Cavalier neutered aged 10 months, so a variety of breeds and ages. All of these will mate and tie. (As did my previous Cavalier who was neutered aged 3. He was still trying to mate aged 15!) Oh and I have a 2 ½ year old Malinois currently implanted with Suprelorin -he is to be castrated next month. He mated and tied despite the Suprelorin although he only did it ONCE, then lost interest. Worried us no end that he'd have got the bitch pregnant despite the implant having been in for the requisite minimum number of weeks.  No puppies resulted so he was infertile.

In my experience with these dogs, neutering does nothing but make them infertile, it changes nothing else at all.

Do you think that perhaps because your dogs are kept with other 'entire' dogs they copy their behaviour? I can't speak for all dogs but dogs I have had castrated in the past haven't shown this sort of behaviour.

I think it is completely personal depending on the owner, their household and the dog in question.

I agree to be honest- some say the health risks outweigh the positive outcomes, others feel the positive outcomes are justifiable.

Confused why you would perform an unnecessary operation on your dog for someone else's benefit - let the careless bitch owner pay for a miss-mate injection and let your dog remain at his best why should be be put at risk for someone who you do not even know and for a risk that must be a long shot.

More fool the bitches owners taking them out when in season, they don't know what dogs they are going to meet and may follow them home.

I am so careful with mine that if they need to leave my property they are carried to the car with their back ends covered to avoid any loss going on the ground that males living locally could pick up on and come camping on my doorstep, when in the garden under supervision they can't reach the front boundry.

I had a dog that had NEVER mated a bitch, was castrated at 3 and STILL wanted to mate a bitch; it had no previous experience, nor had it SEEN or IMITATED any others!  Some dogs, like some people, have higher drives than others.

This does not mean ALL neutered dogs want to mount anything that moves any more than ALL entire dogs do. I have a 6 year old entire male, he has never "run off", never mounted another in or out of season bitch, etc etc.

There are pros and cons to all decisions, nothing in life is risk free, but you have to consider each dog and each situation independently.

Confused why you would perform an unnecessary operation on your dog for someone else's benefit - let the careless bitch owner pay for a miss-mate injection and let your dog remain at his best why should be be put at risk for someone who you do not even know and for a risk that must be a long shot.

This is just ONE of the reasons but it is something that in my mind still needs considering.

Just throwing this into the mix

My older boy (11.5 yrs) had one testicle removed at 7 years due to a cancerous growth (although no biopsy performed so relying on vet's 'visual' diagnosis here). A couple of years later he developed prostatitis/enlarged prostate, which was (eventually) sucessfully treated with the right course of targetted antibiotics. He remains half entire (one testicle) and has homeopathic Saw Palmetto compound to maintain a healthy prostate. No problems (fingers crossed) since. He has always been a very keen male and still chases after the very occasional in season bitch we might meet. Fortunatly there is only one owner near here stupid enough to take a bitch at the height of her season out! I was determined to avoid full castration for him unless it was absolutely unavoidable and I think, so far at least, this has been sucessful.

Unless you are a considerable distance behined or the dogs are out of sight, (which is unwise anyway given the number of dog thefts being on the increase) there is normally more than sufficient time to take action before a mating takes place. Even my rabbits don't mate in seconds! Obviously the situation is different in a home where there are entire bitches but I wouldn't think simply meeting bitches, even in season, on walks would be a hugely significant.

My other poor boy (7 years) has been castrated 3.5 months ago, very reluctantly due to having a perineal hernia repair, and there was simply no alternative. I am hoping that his coat/temprement does not change, so far so good but it was an extremly reluctant desicion. When he was younger we tried him at stud on quite a number of occasions and he has never, ever shown more than a passing interest in bitches.

I would be inclined to let your boy mature and develop and castrate if and only if the situation merits it. Neutering is frequently done to 'cure' behaviour' problems but frequently it makes no difference and makes insecure dogs even worse.

As someone who regrets every day that one of ours was neutered and in doing so made his life around other dogs unnerving, I can add no more to the good advice given here, but one question, prehaps silly but can dogs have the equivalent of a vasectomy? 

Yes they can.

> Yes they can.

Is it a more difficult op?